RE: When?

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werwolf -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 8:11:13 AM)
"I'm respectfully asking" Matrix "to put forward sensible arguments" abouut the REAL date of the release.

warspite1 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 8:17:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: werwolf "I'm respectfully asking" Matrix "to put forward sensible arguments" abouut the REAL date of the release. warspite1 Sensible arguments about the real date of release? There is no argument. As you well know, Steve has had life threatening illnesses over the last year or so. The game is delayed as a result, and given life's proper priorities, no release date can be made with certainty at the moment. As for the comments made previously: - Avoid admit failure: What is more damaging to Matrix? They could say, the project won't work, we are shelving it OR put up with this constant "When" business? There is no mileage in prolonging something that won't happen and that damages their reputation. Again, where is the justification for you saying they don't want the game to come out. - Economic: Well at least, unlike CrusssDaddy you recognise that there is an economic reality, albeit I do not think you understand the commercial relationships that exist and thus where the finance restrictions make themselves felt.

werwolf -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 8:31:54 AM)
I said Matrix not Steve, and you said practically that they encountered probelms over the "last year". And before?..... Last but not least are you sure I do not "understand the commercial relationships that exist"?

warspite1 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 8:39:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: werwolf I said Matrix not Steve, and you said practically that they encountered probelms over the "last year". And before?..... Last but not least are you sure I do not "understand the commercial relationships that exist"? warspite1 No I cannot be sure, but because of your insistence on putting vague words out there - economic - as reasons for the game not coming out, but don't support such comments when asked, I am assuming that to be the case. Before? The game is a monster its proving difficult to code. If Matrix thought Steve was not up to the job then I am sure they would have done something about it, after all its not good advertising for Matrix is it? I suspect the fact is, they know Steve is doing as good a job as anyone could do and are letting him get on with it.

yvesp -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 8:55:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy "Everyone who does not own a software company, develop software, or work in software development business management, do not post to this forum -- your opinion is not valid." That is your argument. Is that really what you wish to stand by? Is that a position of integrity? I don't believe anybody said this. However, when you take the stance of a project director, telling how this project should be managed, it is reasonable that people question your experience regarding the suggestions you make. You yourself question the ability of Steve on this project ; did you personally speak to him ? Can you pinpoint specific failures beyond the inability to complete a very complicated project by himself in the initial timeframe ? Can you be specific in the way he is not competent ? He has shown some of his code, and I can confirm that it's better written than most I usually see, with lots of comments which many programmers wouldn't 'lose time' to write. Many technical choices (Delphi for exemple) were mostly imposed from the start by the legacy code from CWiF and even if these were to prove bad the fault couldn't be dumped solely on Steve's shoulders. As for the global software architecture, I guess nobody has seen the whole picture to put out any judgement good or bad. His monthly reports are more than what I have ever seen in any project, professionaly speaking. People usually don't bother going into so many details. If I were project director, I sure would be happy with him! Failure is to be expected in any project, even projects led by very competent people. The majority of projects I know don't come out on the scheduled date. Still, most of them end up still being profitable. This project is unusually and frustrating deriving in time. I'm very much in doubt that a competent AI will ever be made. And there is of course much concerns about the project not going to it's end given Steve's last year health problems. Nobody can blame him for that. I just hope that Matrix has been searching for a backup, somebody who could begin with 'simple tasks' such as debugging and enter the code ; either to take on after Steve if he should for any reason have to back down (possibly after the initial release : he could want a break!) This could speed up the project (Steve concentrating on the most complex problems) as well as providing some security to the project. I believe that there is a project management problem that Steve had to personally deal with hundreds of bugs every month, a task that can often be delegated, while whole parts of the project were being ignored (say AI for exemple.) Once more, this is not Steve responsability ; to understand why, one would have to question Matrix, and possibly again read the contract's fine prints... Some of your points are valid. Your wording is not. Your aggressivity has no place here. You are frustrated ? You want the project to come out ? Then extend a hand to Steve and take up a part of this project, since you seem so knowledgeable. Maybe you could be coding AI rules under his guidance ? Yves

Extraneous -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 9:43:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy Extraneous, your post is not very helpful. It contradicts Steve's reply in places and cites posts dating back to 2006 as supposed proof of what is happening in 2012. Additionally, I am not interested in what Matrixster's marketing department has to say on any topic: they have ** the bed so thoroughly as to be considered unreliable commenting in any capacity. Steve, the list of scenarios is more extensive than I had thought. That these are completed and tested is good news. Additionally, the list of included options and add-ons appears essentially complete, if these are indeed completed and currently working (aside from minor bugs, if any). I withdraw my complaints that those critical components are missing. A.I. appears as yet to be a dream. Re: graphics and user's manual and pace of development, there's a lot of having cake and a lot of eating it too. When I make complaints about the relative lack of need for these things, I am greeted with choruses of "But what about the noobs? All the people who buy this who have never played WiF before need extensive tutorials and graphics and shiny things," as if Matrix is counting on widespread support from the computer war gaming community and broad appeal along with brisk sales. Then when I make complaints that development has taken unreasonably long and that Matrash has not allocated the proper amount of resources and support, the chorus changes to, "Oh but WiF is a specialty game, it's not like it's this big project with broad appeal that is going to sell like gangbusters and justify a proper development team." Well, which is it? I am actually in the glass-half-full camp that believes WiF has the capacity to shine in a marketplace loaded with crappy Grigsby-spam and dopey HOI games, but I am consistently told that I am wrong and the only road to development is one guy and a handful of part-time volunteers. The only one that matters at this point dwarfs any concerns: your health. You are the only option for completion. There is no Plan B. And let's be real here: reports of your demise may be greatly exaggerated, but the trajectory of your health is not encouraging. Are you at an age where a vigorous rebound is more likely, or less likely? Your own stubbornness in accepting volunteer help with the coding/programming up until last year was very much at the root of the problem. So even if we grant that you can hang in to get a reduced MWiF out the door, the optimism required to believe you can also hang in to implement additional scenarios and add-ons and the A.I. is a bridge too far. One other question: can the Edit Mode be retained for MWiF, allowing for DIY scenario building and flights of speculative fancy? Just showing you that your wish list has been addressed. Things change and someone like you should know that. Your not interested in what Matrixster's marketing department has to say? Please get your corporate information straight. Matrix Corporate (or you can use the link is at the top of the page) Erik Rutins "Snow Dog" is Director of Product Development and Business Relations Sean Drummy "Armed" is Marketing, Press Relations and Project Manager Remember I am no longer in the Beta so I can only post links to information that has been posted. There is a search button at the top of the page you could use it to find information if you wished. One of the things I want you to know is this game doe's not have to meet all your specifications. If you don't like the game specifications don't buy the game. It's not all about you. PS: I used Microsoft Word to correct your spelling and grammar.**

werwolf -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 9:44:39 AM)
You are right is "not good advertising for Matrix" And after all no one has not answered yet about a probable release date.

warspite1 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 9:51:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: werwolf You are right is "not good advertising for Matrix" And after all no one has not answered yet about a probable release date. warspite1 YES THEY HAVE - SEE MY EARLIER POST. AT THE MOMENT THERE IS NO RELEASE DATE THAT MAY BE GIVEN. Steve;s health is more important than, what is only, A GAME.

CrusssDaddy -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 9:51:48 AM)
"How do they do it?!?!?!?" you lot must ask yourselves of these other developers and publishers who routinely team up to churn out new titles on a yearly basis. "It must be black magic!" How else to explain Paradox cranking out three HOIs, two Victorias, and a rabble of Dark Ages and Medieval-themed strategic titles since MWiF was announced. Or Slitherine covering WWI + WWII + ancient era in the same time? Or even the illustrious Wastrix with Gary Grigsby Inc., WWII, Civil War, WWI, war across the galaxy, etc., etc.? And all with functioning A.I.s even... "S'truth, it's the Devil's work!!!" I wonder, is it magic... or perhaps they hired more than one guy to run those shows, and delegated resources, and gave a damn if a game was released? Naw, that couldn't be it...

warspite1 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 9:52:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Extraneous It's not all about you. warspite1 Yes it is - he is a child. He wants it and he wants it now!

CrusssDaddy -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 10:02:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Extraneous It's not all about you. warspite1 Yes it is - he is a child. He wants it and he wants it now! Actually I might be a child, comparatively. Informal show of hands please: who here is an AARP member, or of an equivalent non-U.S. organization? Steve, Bo, I see your hands up. Raise them higher everyone else, so I can count...

Extraneous -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 10:03:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: werwolf You are right is "not good advertising for Matrix" And after all no one has not answered yet about a probable release date. A release date is up to Matrix Games. No one else can answer that. If for instance, Steve finished developing the game yesterday, tomorrow, next year, and etc. Matrix Games would still set the release date.

warspite1 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 10:27:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Extraneous It's not all about you. warspite1 Yes it is - he is a child. He wants it and he wants it now! Actually I might be a child, comparatively. Informal show of hands please: who here is an AARP member, or of an equivalent non-U.S. organization? Steve, Bo, I see your hands up. Raise them higher everyone else, so I can count... warspite1 Nooooo. You are a child full stop. You fire off all kinds of accusations and comments, ranging from the ridiculous to the rude, with no thought other than to troll. If trolling is not your intention and you are genuine then please answer the questions put to you. No? Thought not. Pathetic. Bye.

yvesp -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 11:40:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy "How do they do it?!?!?!?" you lot must ask yourselves of these other developers and publishers who routinely team up to churn out new titles on a yearly basis. "It must be black magic!" How else to explain Paradox cranking out three HOIs, two Victorias, and a rabble of Dark Ages and Medieval-themed strategic titles since MWiF was announced. Answering only those titles I know: simple, they all use the absolutely identical engine ; it even goes down to the same save game format. Or almost. Each title is a small delta from a cousin, with a different timeframe. Graphics, music etc get changed, but not the core. So Paradox walks quietly with small hops from one title to the next. Not to mention the way Paradox takes your money away by releasing minor updates that everybody still wants (I lost the count of EU3 addons, 4 or 5 ?) : this gives them bucks to staff the next project! In addition, Paradox is a company with a lot of developpers. Here we deal with what basically is a solo man project. Obviously, this makes things a bit longer! That choice can be discussed to no end, since we do not know how it came to be that way. That's the main cause why the product has not been out for years. If the project had been staffed from start with but 3 developpers, the game would have been finished by now! Even now, there would be room for one additional developper as I explained in a previous post. At this stage, Steve's job shouldn't be to crush bugs, but instead he should be heading for yet missing functionalities. Yves

sth1119 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 11:52:00 AM)
Wish the best for Steve with his health. I'd like to see this game but i agree that live is a priority.

Anendrue -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 2:02:51 PM)
OK so lets take a step back and try to sum all this up. 1. We all agree to disagree. 2. A release date has not been announced by Matrix. 3. The game is still in development. With that said. The stress heaped upon Steve by all this can not be good for his health. Therefore I am stepping back and asking all sides to step back and consider what we may have done. * edit spelling

vonRocko -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 2:18:20 PM)
edit.

yvesp -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 2:55:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abj9562 With that said. The stress heaped upon Steve by all this can not be good for his health. Therefore I am stepping back and asking all sides to step back and consider what we may have done. As for me, I have already stated that Steve's health is infinitely more important than the game. So the game will get released when it's ready. No need to hurry! Just keep reading the monthly reports and write positive (i.e. constructive) feedback. But it's likely that the real source of stress is out of this thread, namely within his contract. Who knows how he gets paid as long as the game is not finished ? Still, no need to add to this here, I fully agree. Yves

pzgndr -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 2:59:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 He is a child. He wants it and he wants it now! Do you have a wargame pending development? Are you waiting for a wargame from a legal settlement? If you need your wargame now, contact J.G. Wentworth. They just might be able to help you get your wargame sooner. Call Now For a Free, No-Obligation Quote. [:D] Seriously. Some folks need to chill out, big time. Enjoy the holidays. Etc. [8\|]

warspite1 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 3:03:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yvesp quote: ORIGINAL: abj9562 With that said. The stress heaped upon Steve by all this can not be good for his health. Therefore I am stepping back and asking all sides to step back and consider what we may have done. As for me, I have already stated that Steve's health is infinitely more important than the game. So the game will get released when it's ready. No need to hurry! Just keep reading the monthly reports and write positive (i.e. constructive) feedback. But it's likely that the real source of stress is out of this thread, namely within his contract. Who knows how he gets paid as long as the game is not finished ? Still, no need to add to this here, I fully agree. Yves warspite1 On hearing of Steve's continued health concerns, any normal human being would react the way the Beta testers and the well wishers generally on the forum have reacted; with a bit of compassion, concern for Steve, and with a bit of perspective - MWIF is a GAME. Those that can't see that? Well, best left unsaid. Although Steve monitors every thread, hopefully on seeing the nonsense stirred up by that inadequate individual, he will have switched off and gone and done something more useful - like recuperate.

bo -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 4:55:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Extraneous It's not all about you. warspite1 Yes it is - he is a child. He wants it and he wants it now! Actually I might be a child, comparatively. Informal show of hands please: who here is an AARP member, or of an equivalent non-U.S. organization? Steve, Bo, I see your hands up. Raise them higher everyone else, so I can count... I don't join organizations crussdaddy but I am old enough to be a member, my hand is raised. With no knowledge of programming but trying to use common sense, when you as a programmer have to follow all the rules of a well known board game it must be a nightmare. All of the above mentioned games with good this and good that are not board games converted to the computer, one board game that comes to mind is 3RD Reich, great board game but poorly done for the computer which I do have on my computer and play now and then. I guess my point is that in complexity in programming these two games I would hazard a guess that MWIF is far more harder to code than 3RD Reich was. Even though both programming companies had to follow the rules of the board game, Steve has global war to concern him not just the European war. Other companies that make the above games like Ho1 and Gary Grigsby war games can make up anything they want to as far as rules, units, battle results etc. And you either buy it or you don't. If I felt that crussdaddy was trolling I would tell him to go jump into hell, please! But I do not believe he is, he is just frustrated and he is expressing his frustration where he is allowed to on the MWIF open forums, the word is OPEN. Insults though should not be tolerated. Two years ago I was where he is now in using harsh words to express my dislike for how long the game is taking to complete and the dreaded AI controversy, it got me nowhere except headaches. As abj knows I decided to end the harshness. But I personally do not think that the younger posters here do not understand where we are coming from [no smileys] I mean that. I do not know how old crussdaddy is but I am up there. I believe with my heart and soul that I will be to old to enjoy this great game from Steve and Matrix if this goes on much longer, so time to us became the essence and has led to some harsh statements not out of meanness but out of frustration. I have no option left but to wait. Bo

Patton_71 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 5:30:44 PM)
As we all have shared the agony of this development process for this game, I feel that the only real ability for us to influence the powers that be is to use the power of the consumer: buy somewhere else. I have stated in previous posts my conviction of not purchasing any products from Matrix until after MWIF is released. I will continue to do so, as this may be the only way left we have to open Matrix's eyes and get the job done. I encourage others to do so, as this will (possibly) motivate Matrix. So far I have spent about $100 on gaming software and supplies ( I also do F2F boardgaming still), including Convoys in Flames. I know this may seem like a drop in a bucket, but if just 100 of us were to do the same, that would equal $10000 in lost Matrix revenue. Maybe that would get their attention. There are products that Matrix has that I am definitely interested in. But, I will not consider a purchase any of those titles until after MWIF is released, maybe. So please, other readers of the forum, let Matrix know that you will take your dollars, pounds, yen, kroner, etc. and spend them elsewhere, and let them know this. Hopefully, matrix will see that their actions (or lack thereof) here are not only costing them business, but helping the competition.

Anendrue -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 5:36:33 PM)
As another old man I too raise my hand. Yes Bo has definitely turned over a new leaf and has boldly gone where no man .... Oops that senility thing again. [:D] Our thanks to Bo for maintaining a calm and serene pace. [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)] (smileys just for you Bo)

bo -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 7:12:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abj9562 As another old man I too raise my hand. Yes Bo has definitely turned over a new leaf and has boldly gone where no man .... Oops that senility thing again. [:D] Our thanks to Bo for maintaining a calm and serene pace. [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)] (smileys just for you Bo) Senility HUH! have you been talking to my wife abj? I am so senile a decent nursing home would never take me. No new leaf, just the last leaf on the tree hanging on for Spring when I will be renewed with new life because MWIF will be finished by then. [&o] Bo

bo -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 7:27:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Patton_71 As we all have shared the agony of this development process for this game, I feel that the only real ability for us to influence the powers that be is to use the power of the consumer: buy somewhere else. I have stated in previous posts my conviction of not purchasing any products from Matrix until after MWIF is released. I will continue to do so, as this may be the only way left we have to open Matrix's eyes and get the job done. I encourage others to do so, as this will (possibly) motivate Matrix. So far I have spent about $100 on gaming software and supplies ( I also do F2F boardgaming still), including Convoys in Flames. I know this may seem like a drop in a bucket, but if just 100 of us were to do the same, that would equal $10000 in lost Matrix revenue. Maybe that would get their attention. There are products that Matrix has that I am definitely interested in. But, I will not consider a purchase any of those titles until after MWIF is released, maybe. So please, other readers of the forum, let Matrix know that you will take your dollars, pounds, yen, kroner, etc. and spend them elsewhere, and let them know this. Hopefully, matrix will see that their actions (or lack thereof) here are not only costing them business, but helping the competition. Hi Patton_71, I personally do not think that is a good idea, Matrix puts out decent games for the war gaming public. After seven Years of posts, lately negative, does not move them to help Steve {if Steve needs help} then I do not think boycotting them will bring them to the negotiating table. Remember the forum posters union is not that strong. But then again maybe a new union chairman might help. I nominate for the first union chairman of the United Brotherhood of MWIF posters [UBMWIFP] [&o] to be crussdaddy [;)] Any one second this motion? Bo

gw15 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 7:45:18 PM)
Amazing reading all of the posts in this forum. I'm really not surprised though. crussdaddy my not say things correctly but my opinion is that 80% of the readers of these post agree this project has gone on WAY too long. I have been following this project from day 1. I, for sure, have no idea why it has taken so long. I suppose most of you don't either. But in the end, this is a business. Matrix's reputation has taken a huge hit with a project that has taken as long as this has. I'd say, an embarressment. At this point I'm very worried this will not get finished. If I'm still alive whenever this actually comes out I will buy it because I like the game but there will always be that thought in the back of my mind. "What the heck was the problem?" If it doesn't come out then VASSAL works just as well.

Anendrue -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 8:19:01 PM)
An example of why coding this game is so complex and is taking so much time. In most wargames there are few rules governing supply. You just simply trace to an area, hex, city, etc.. at a single point in time and you are OK. So to write a simple supply algorihim takes a few hours to a few days to write, implement, debug, and annotate. Not so with WiF. There are multiple times to check supply and tons of things that can affect it. Add in 15-30 situations, exceptions, specialty units and 80 oprional rules and you just blew the time frame sky high. Now have that level of complexity present in all aspects of the game and you can appreciate it even more. What Steve is doing is revolutionary, groundbreaking, and most definitely challenging. This is why game companies do not take on the old games. They rely on simple to moderate game engines that have the appearance of complexity. When you write code you can hide the complex and make it seem simple (chess programs) or make the simple appear complex (HOI). With WiF you already know the complexity so there is nothing you can hide in the code. It has to work correctly or it has to be fixed. There is no substitute.

lomyrin -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 8:22:43 PM)
I too am an AARPr for many years. At 77 I am fortunate in still being in good physical and mental health and I do expect to play the MWiF game before my number is up. I also still play the boardgame and have been doing so for a very long time.

Empire101 -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 8:30:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 On hearing of Steve's continued health concerns, any normal human being would react the way the Beta testers and the well wishers generally on the forum have reacted; with a bit of compassion, concern for Steve, and with a bit of perspective - MWIF is a GAME. Those that can't see that? Well, best left unsaid. Although Steve monitors every thread, hopefully on seeing the nonsense stirred up by that inadequate individual, he will have switched off and gone and done something more useful - like recuperate. +1 Mr.W I have'nt visited this Forum for a couple of weeks, because of Real Life, CTGW, WitP AE etc and I am surprised at some of the vitriolic posts. ( yes you know who you are ). As Warspite and others have pointed out many times, MWiF will be the greatest game when it is completed, but it is just that; A GAME. Gentlemen, may I remind you all, certain members need to have the 'Green Button' employed against them to retain your humour and your sense of perspective. Some posters do not warrant a reply, their posts are just to inflame others under the pretence of 'my voice must be heard', or they are seriously misinformed. Use your green button. You know it makes sense. And Steve...best wishes again. I hope your health is improving. Edit:Grammer

Anendrue -> RE: When? (11/27/2012 8:35:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Empire101 quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 On hearing of Steve's continued health concerns, any normal human being would react the way the Beta testers and the well wishers generally on the forum have reacted; with a bit of compassion, concern for Steve, and with a bit of perspective - MWIF is a GAME. Those that can't see that? Well, best left unsaid. Although Steve monitors every thread, hopefully on seeing the nonsense stirred up by that inadequate individual, he will have switched off and gone and done something more useful - like recuperate. +1 Mr.W I have'nt visited this Forum for a couple of weeks, because of Real Life, CTGW, WitP AE etc and I am surprised at some of the vitriolic posts. ( yes you know who you are ). As Warspite and others have pointed out many times, MWiF will be the greatest game when it is completed, but it is just that; A GAME. Gentleman, may I remind you all, certain members need to have the 'Green Button' employed against them to retain your humour and your sense of perspective. Some posters do not warrant a reply, their posts are just to inflame others under the pretence of 'my voice must be heard', or they are seriously misinformed. Use your green button. You know it makes sense. And Steve...best wishes again. I hope your health is improving. Well teach an old dog new tricks. I never bothered to mouse over that little button. thanks for the heads up.

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