RE: Proper Place? (Full Version)

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Lingering Frey -> RE: Proper Place? (8/18/2013 11:15:33 PM)

Steve,

When the game is available for purchase, will there be a "boxed + digital" version available or only digital?

Thanks



pochepiller -> RE: Proper Place? (8/18/2013 11:16:44 PM)

Lets bet then, I say ... ... ... April 3rd 2014, with PBEM play, no AI, no major bug with a 69.99 price.

David



CrusssDaddy -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 1:53:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Against my better judgment, I'll answer this.

Debug is a great feature if you want to crash the program. It allows you to place Brazilian units next to Berlin even if Brazil is not in the war! You can change the weather before your opponent attacks so all his units are out of supply and he can't make any attacks! Did you just lose your best armor unit? No problem! Just put him back on the map where ever you like. Is your opponent defending his convoys too well? Then just remove all his surface ships in the area to the scrap pool - problem solved.

The debug feature is for debugging the game's software. It is not for playing the game according to the rules. But you already knew that, so my post here is just another tidbit for the troll. As for apologies for being disrespectful, you are well over 100 apologies behind.


I suppose if you use debug like an idiot and "place Brazilian units next to Berlin even if Brazil is not in the war" you could crash the game. Th other examples you cite would appear to be from a 2-player game, where one player uses debug to cheat. This isn't how I use debug and I suspect it's not how anyone else does. I use debug in solo play to extract maximum enjoyment form the game through experimentation and "What If?" exercises.

CWiF is pretty stable for me. The most frequent cause of crash is scrolling over Persia during certain phases, especially scenario set-up; second most frequent cause of crashes is calling Vichy. I've had exceedingly few crashes caused by debug and it is invaluable for enjoyment of the game:

Pick die rolls to launch the game into the trajectory you desire (Free France with max territory/units, aggressive Axis with isolationist US, mild winter GE/USSR battles, etc.)

Create alternate scenarios (ally neutrals as you see fit, create Invasion USA, large-scale Africa campaigns, add a single oil resource to Italy or Japan at set-up, etc.)

Ameliorate the worst shortcomings of the resource transport system (you can fuss with convoys directly or the easier route is to simply add/subtract production points as necessary); this one should be unnecessary if the bugs have been fixed

Removing debug removes 90% of the enjoyment from solo play. Since you don't have an AI, you obviously rank solo play in value beneath other modes; you should simply admit that, rather than spread the falsehood that debug is removed for stability reasons.




CrusssDaddy -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 2:03:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller

Lets bet then, I say ... ... ... April 3rd 2014, with PBEM play, no AI, no major bug with a 69.99 price.

David


It's painful to go through the old posts but this crew have burned themselves repeatedly with enthusiastic release predictions going back 5 years or more, and the failures to meet these predictions have nothing to do with poor health or any external factors: the failures hinge upon the deficiencies inherent in assigning professional expectations to what is essentially a retiree occupying his golden years with the building of birdhouses. So you're not going to get more predictions from the MWiF insiders, their only lesson learned is to circle the wagons, keeping lips sealed and mouths firmly shut while trying to ignore the Apaches on the horizon.



bo -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 2:04:31 AM)

quote:

Several years ago I swore off giving estimated release dates.



Uh oh it's Geronimo coming get out the gatling gun Steve.


"Swore off", is that like taking an oath of no more estimated dates Steve [:D]

Good lord when you have to answer crussdaddy, it is like he is winning the war of words here.

I have an answer to all of our problems with crudssdaddy [not real problems] make him a beta tester Steve and really aggravate the hell out of him [:@]

He is getting to you people, shame, shame, shame [:-]

Bo



pochepiller -> WHEN? (8/19/2013 2:58:26 AM)

First I don't think CrussDaddy is the beast incarnate, his points are crude but valid. Secondly I think that this game should came out and I will buy it. Thirdly ( can we say that? ) I believe that ballparking the date right now is way more realistic than 4 years ago so why not give it a shot. How long till we see this game? Less than a year or more than a year?

Educated guess from Warspite, Crussdaddy, Neilcaster ex girlfriend, Bo, Geronimo would be great.

My guess is less than one year we can play MwiF and I will get my ass kicked in PBEM.

What is yours guess?

David
Québec
Canada

[image]http://mlblogsbensbiz.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/iwnt3.jpg[/image]



michaelbaldur -> RE: WHEN? (8/19/2013 5:22:41 AM)

less then a year or more then a year ...that is the answer [:D]

but not exactly a year [:D] [:D][:D][:D][:D]

but seriously. I can see the game from the inside, and I have no idea when it is finished.

if the rest of the bugs are easy to fix, soon..

but is they are time consuming, not soon



Neilster -> RE: WHEN? (8/19/2013 6:02:51 AM)

My ex-girlfriend was non-committal but says she's keen on a "close the Med and '42 Barbarossa" strategy as the Axis when it's released :)

Cheers, Neilster



bo -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 6:22:18 AM)

Hi pochepiller

Geronimo? I would rather be Custer, oops on second thought, I would rather have been Sitting Bull [;)]

If Steve and Matrix would release me from my NDS signing [:-] I would gladly give you a hint about when the game will be released, but it would only be a hint, my last hint to everyone was that I knew that the Flyers would win the Stanley Cup last year, want me to go on. [:D]

I was thinking about doing an AAR on Guadalcanal which is primarily a naval game. Some time ago Red Prince did a very good AAR on Barbarossa which was a land combat scenario. I never played the board game and I am learning new tactics every day I beta test this game.

Yesterday I had a major naval battle in the Coral Sea involving the Japanese fleet carriers the CV's Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, Shokaku, and the Zuikaku with a air to sea rating of 25 from 8 air units attacking the US CV's Enterprise the Saratoga and the Yorktown with a combined air to sea attack factors of 9, pretty much sounds like a mismatch, but the suprise points went to the US which can really alter a naval conflict. Even so the battle in losses were pretty even.

The Japanese lost two carriers the Kaga and the Hiryu with air to sea factors of 10. not good. The US lost the Enterprise and the Saratoga with air to sea factors of 8. All in all it looks like a tie but the US is left with only the Yorktown and the Lexington and now they [US] have to avoid naval combat at all costs and use the carriers for invasions and escort duties. Remember the Guadalcanal scenario is only 5 moves [ten months]

In Day of Infamy I attacked Pearl Harbor with 6 fleet carriers using carrier plane rules and bottomed ships, delivered quite a bit of damage to the US Pacific fleet 2 battle wagons destroyed 1 damaged and 2 bottomed at Pearl. I am not sure but I think bottomed ships go into the construction cycle, and I am not sure which cycle the first or second.

Forgive me if some of this sounds misleading as I have never done this before. One thing I have found out is that this game can be played in a solitaire game mode and with the die roll anything can happen. And the best thing about solitaire is that if I start to lose I just turn the stupid computer off [;)].

Bo



warspite1 -> RE: WHEN? (8/19/2013 7:53:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller

Educated guess from Warspite, Crussdaddy, Neilcaster ex girlfriend, Bo, Geronimo would be great.

What is yours guess?

David
Québec
Canada

Geronimo

When the Earth is sick, the animals will begin to disappear, when that happens, The Warriors of the Rainbow will come to save them.



warspite1 -> RE: WHEN? (8/19/2013 7:55:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller

Educated guess from Warspite, Crussdaddy, Neilcaster ex girlfriend, Bo, Geronimo would be great.

What is yours guess?

David
Québec
Canada


warspite1

I'm somewhere between Neilster's ex-girlfriend and Geronimo.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 8:47:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

Steve,

When the game is available for purchase, will there be a "boxed + digital" version available or only digital?

Thanks

Wrong on both counts.[:)] Only boxed.



Joseignacio -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 2:21:16 PM)

The problem is NOT that C.D. worries about the date. And he is right that the game is "late", after (8? 10? years), although no release date was firm.

The problem is that he is disrespectful, makes personal attacks to forum members and to the game developer. For 1/100 of what he has done, I was once banned from PatchDox (aka Paradox) forums. And believe me I had stronger reasons than just a game not coming out.

Other people have said they will not buy the game, they lost interest, or they objected Theme Engine or whatever ideas, methods and programs Steve has. He has answered them , and they have agreed or not, but respectfully.

I myself lost part of my interest, out of emotional self protection against projected dates delusions, but I keep my ways, and I don't blame Steve for trying to serve a game that works, after PatchDox games having had to be patched up to 3 years later. Steve is a fan of the game and he wants it as perfect as it can reasonably be. And his patience with C.D. behaviours is the one of a saint, which I approve and support, for the well of the liberty of opinion, And however, I worry on how much this distracts him from the developing activity (hopefully few -by now) and how much this affects him personally, especially considering his health issues.




wfzimmerman -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 3:16:04 PM)

I founs the recent volley of personal insults quite offputting. I don't want to come to a Matrix Games forum and come across that stuff. I have managed many forums and mailing lists over the years and I would have no hesitation in banning the individual(s) responsible for the recent thread.



bo -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 4:15:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

I founs the recent volley of personal insults quite offputting. I don't want to come to a Matrix Games forum and come across that stuff. I have managed many forums and mailing lists over the years and I would have no hesitation in banning the individual(s) responsible for the recent thread.


That is why I tried to change the tune here from personal insults to something constructive like a semi AAR, but I see that is useless here with all the bull crap going on, so gentlemen? and ladies please go on with your remarks and I will refrain from making anymore attempts to show how this game is truly one of a kind computer war game.

Bo



CrusssDaddy -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 7:38:31 PM)

Please continue refuting, or not as the case so far has proven to be. How about an AI opponent? Supposing the game is released this year (an audacious presumption!), which of the following is the most accurate statement:

A. The initial release will include an A.I. opponent.

B. The initial release will not include an A.I. opponent, but one will be available (for an additional fee) within 6 months.

C. The initial release will not include an A.I. opponent, but one will be available (for an additional fee) within 12 months.

D. The initial release will not include an A.I. opponent; one is planned and hoped-for but will not be available within 12 months, or possibly ever.

For the sake of this question let us ignore the potential ability of the A.I. opponent and thus exclude tiresome and false argumentation along the lines of, "Oh WiF is tooooooooooo complicated for an effective/entertaining A.I. opponent, blah blah blah..."



warspite1 -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 9:30:12 PM)

Never mind.... it's not worth it [sm=nono.gif]



pochepiller -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 10:10:15 PM)

Yes its worth it! I think D, the AI will take a long time to come out in any satisfactory fashion. Its not a bad thing for me as I only want to play with people or maybe against me to see potential strategy.

So Warspite1, play the game and stop facepalming, when this game will come out? I want your guess and thanks for all the response.

David G.



Joseignacio -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 10:29:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller

Yes its worth it! I think D, the AI will take a long time to come out in any satisfactory fashion. Its not a bad thing for me as I only want to play with people or maybe against me to see potential strategy.

So Warspite1, play the game and stop facepalming, when this game will come out? I want your guess and thanks for all the response.

David G.


You are totally right there! Ask Steve to give you back all the money you already paid!

O, wait...

I simply cannot understand why some people feel entitled to complain that a game has not come out, while they have absolutely no title on it, no ticket of buy, no reservation, no nothing.
Steven could as well cancel the Project tomorrow and nobody could even argue he cannot, so...



pochepiller -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 10:49:47 PM)

O, wait...

I simply cannot understand why some people feel entitled to subdue any negative comments about a game. I have no title on this game so I can't talk about it? Or maybe you just want to hear happy positive comments Joseignacio?

I just hate when board like this one became too accomodating and just can't tolerate anyone against the grain.

So Joseignacio and Warspite1, when this game is coming: Less or more than one year?

David
Québec



Joseignacio -> RE: Proper Place? (8/19/2013 11:40:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller

O, wait...

I simply cannot understand why some people feel entitled to subdue any negative comments about a game. I have no title on this game so I can't talk about it? Or maybe you just want to hear happy positive comments Joseignacio?

I just hate when board like this one became too accomodating and just can't tolerate anyone against the grain.

So Joseignacio and Warspite1, when this game is coming: Less or more than one year?

David
Québec


David you can talk, of course. It's just that talk includes a lot of posible attitudes, including bashing fórum members, like your friend C-D.

As for the date, I think it's pretty clear. The game has no date yet, so if you cannot wait or just cannot sleep because you don't know when it will be released, ask for your money back. Ooops, I did it again!

I understand that people may have inquiries on when a game can be released. Even more in this one with it's history... it's just a matter of style, whining and demanding a date is not very intelligent IMO, especially when it has been said there will not be (by now) an specific date.

Exactly what entitles you two to demand a release date?

I hate acritical fanboy behabiours, but this is kinda strange, people requiring something they are not entitled to get.



Easo79 -> RE: Proper Place? (8/20/2013 12:33:51 AM)

You wargamers seem to have very scarce pools of patience. Christians have been waiting the Second Coming of Jesus for almost 2.000 years, when apparently it was scheduled to happen in one generation, i.e approximately 30 years. And they do not complain...[8|]

This thread reminds us that our mood is not driven by facts, but by expectations. As Joseignacio points out, we are not poorer without MWiF, because we never had one. Had this project been carried out in secret, nobody would have been felt so unhappy with the delays. But we have what we have: expectations and delays. I, for my part, can only thank that delays have indeed occurred, so I am having time to read the rules, and many of the threads, and keep my karma happy in the process.

Pochepiller, nobody denies the right other forum members have to criticize whichever part they deem adequate to be criticized. But please let me post an imaginary situation…

I am going to a birthday party, I dress me up with all my fancy new clothes, and I drive my car by winding roads all over the Tramuntana. I arrive at the nice house where the party is taking place, and I ring the bell. The owner opens the door and this is what I say to him…

“Your party is a complete disgrace and you and your friends are a laughable bunch of losers”

And then I leave.

But year after year I go again to the same party and I do exactly the same. One year. And the year after. And the year after the year after. Always.

Do you really think that if some of the other guests happen to ask themselves…”why is she coming here year after year?” they are simply being intolerant and not open-minded?

Neilster, I apologize for not answering to you sooner. All I want to say here is that I am warmly touched by your consideration towards those persons that were, and still are, important in your life [sm=00001746.gif]. I am fully confident that the existence of persons here at the forum unable to comprehend what your feelings were/are is not going to unduly hurt you.

Last but not least, I take the gauntlet on my favourite expected release date, and I'm sticking to my earlier opinion: September 1st, 2014. 75th Anniversary of Fall Weiss.[sm=innocent0001.gif]







pochepiller -> RE: Proper Place? (8/20/2013 1:26:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

[
Exactly what entitles you two to demand a release date?

I hate acritical fanboy behabiours, but this is kinda strange, people requiring something they are not entitled to get.


I did not demand a release date, I asked for educated guess, CrussDaddy isn't my friend, I'm entitled to nothing I'm just asking for a date, nobody as to answer me.

Did I get to you on a bad day because where I sounded entitled? I just asked and then you fall on my as if I insulted you personnally.

Maybe just maybe I really want to play that game and I'm curious to see when it get out. The wait and see approach might suit you but I'm a little impatient after 5 years.

I know I'm not entitled to be impatient so sorry Joseignacio, sorry for asking something.



pochepiller -> RE: Proper Place? (8/20/2013 1:33:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Easo79



Pochepiller, nobody denies the right other forum members have to criticize whichever part they deem adequate to be criticized. But please let me post an imaginary situation…

I am going to a birthday party, I dress me up with all my fancy new clothes, and I drive my car by winding roads all over the Tramuntana. I arrive at the nice house where the party is taking place, and I ring the bell. The owner opens the door and this is what I say to him…

“Your party is a complete disgrace and you and your friends are a laughable bunch of losers”

And then I leave.

But year after year I go again to the same party and I do exactly the same. One year. And the year after. And the year after the year after. Always.

Do you really think that if some of the other guests happen to ask themselves…”why is she coming here year after year?” they are simply being intolerant and not open-minded?




I never **** on this party, I was a lurker for a couple of years really and now I just asked for educated guess. Why I have to defend myself? Quote me where I said something outrageaous and then I will explain myself or retract myself. This kind of self rightousness drive me crazy, I just asked for a opinion of when this game could came out.

I'm happy to see your guess of september first 2014 Easo79, that is just what I asked for.
I betting on april first 2014, everyone will think its a april fool joke and then Bam, the box is in the mail.


David
Québec



gridley -> RE: Proper Place? (8/20/2013 3:38:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller

Lets bet then, I say ... ... ... April 3rd 2014, with PBEM play, no AI, no major bug with a 69.99 price.

David


If I had to guess I'd put the price tag at $200 minimum with a release date late this year.



warspite1 -> RE: Proper Place? (8/20/2013 4:48:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller

Yes its worth it! I think D, the AI will take a long time to come out in any satisfactory fashion. Its not a bad thing for me as I only want to play with people or maybe against me to see potential strategy.

So Warspite1, play the game and stop facepalming, when this game will come out? I want your guess and thanks for all the response.

David G.
warspite1

Facepalming? I didn't even know what that was - just looked it up - and no I wasn't [;)].

"It's not worth it" was in response to a post I had written responding to you know who. But on reflection I removed it as it wasn't particularly kind. He clearly cannot help himself so (once again [8|]) I will try to simply ignore him in future.

As to your asking me for a guess, there is no point in me doing that. The only person who knows the score is Steve. If Steve does not want, or does not feel able, to give a date at this time then, as a member of the beta test team and subject to an NDA, then I cannot either.

Just for the record I came here in 2008 when the game was "nearly ready". Others have no doubt waited longer. The wait is unfortunate as it is such a great game. BUT it is a game. It's not the cure for cancer, it's not the be-all-and-end-all of life.

When I invest physical £/$ into Matrix, or into this project, then I have the right to start complaining about this decision or that decision. However I don't, it's not my cash, not my livelihood on the line - I'm just a customer - an eager customer yes, but a customer all the same.

Look at how many games out there have been released before they are ready - and what a car crash they have proven to be as a result. I say again, even after this length of wait and the anticipation that brings, I would rather this game never came out than come out with a heap of bugs.

In summary then - it will be ready when its ready.



Neilster -> RE: Proper Place? (8/20/2013 6:38:55 AM)

quote:

Neilster, I apologize for not answering to you sooner. All I want to say here is that I am warmly touched by your consideration towards those persons that were, and still are, important in your life . I am fully confident that the existence of persons here at the forum unable to comprehend what your feelings were/are is not going to unduly hurt you.

Thanks...and they don't :)

Cheers, Neilster



Easo79 -> RE: Proper Place? (8/20/2013 8:33:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller


quote:

ORIGINAL: Easo79



Pochepiller, nobody denies the right other forum members have to criticize whichever part they deem adequate to be criticized. But please let me post an imaginary situation…

I am going to a birthday party, I dress me up with all my fancy new clothes, and I drive my car by winding roads all over the Tramuntana. I arrive at the nice house where the party is taking place, and I ring the bell. The owner opens the door and this is what I say to him…

“Your party is a complete disgrace and you and your friends are a laughable bunch of losers”

And then I leave.

But year after year I go again to the same party and I do exactly the same. One year. And the year after. And the year after the year after. Always.

Do you really think that if some of the other guests happen to ask themselves…”why is she coming here year after year?” they are simply being intolerant and not open-minded?




I never **** on this party, I was a lurker for a couple of years really and now I just asked for educated guess. Why I have to defend myself? Quote me where I said something outrageaous and then I will explain myself or retract myself. This kind of self rightousness drive me crazy, I just asked for a opinion of when this game could came out.

I'm happy to see your guess of september first 2014 Easo79, that is just what I asked for.
I betting on april first 2014, everyone will think its a april fool joke and then Bam, the box is in the mail.


David
Québec



David, obviously it was not you who I was talking about. As far as I know, you have not injured (or tried to) anyone here.



Joseignacio -> RE: Proper Place? (8/20/2013 8:37:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

[
Exactly what entitles you two to demand a release date?

I hate acritical fanboy behabiours, but this is kinda strange, people requiring something they are not entitled to get.


I did not demand a release date, I asked for educated guess, CrussDaddy isn't my friend, I'm entitled to nothing I'm just asking for a date, nobody as to answer me.

Did I get to you on a bad day because where I sounded entitled? I just asked and then you fall on my as if I insulted you personnally.

Maybe just maybe I really want to play that game and I'm curious to see when it get out. The wait and see approach might suit you but I'm a little impatient after 5 years.

I know I'm not entitled to be impatient so sorry Joseignacio, sorry for asking something.


First, my posts originally were commenting CD's rude adressing to Steven (and other members). If I had the time I could bring you many harsh posts of him sometimes in the boundary of trolling. But you must know this, since you have been lurking. [8|] Even in the latter posts you can see his ways:

quote:

It's painful to go through the old posts but this crew have burned themselves repeatedly with enthusiastic release predictions going back 5 years or more, and the failures to meet these predictions have nothing to do with poor health or any external factors: the failures hinge upon the deficiencies inherent in assigning professional expectations to what is essentially a retiree occupying his golden years with the building of birdhouses. So you're not going to get more predictions from the MWiF insiders, their only lesson learned is to circle the wagons, keeping lips sealed and mouths firmly shut while trying to ignore the Apaches on the horizon.


quote:

You arranged coitus with a human female 20 years ago, and rightly you are proud and have come here to boast of your singular achievement. I don't want to rain on your parade, I want to help you mark the occasion. Have you shown this thread to the young lady you Neilstered? I can imagine her delight: picture posted, along with current location and occupation, and the dirty deeds slyly referenced as "reunions" complete with leering Winky emoticon.


quote:

When you clench your fist and "talk to your girlfriend" do you draw a mouth in with lipstick, or is your imagination sufficient to carry the ruse?

Keep those pix coming -- it's a new day and Warspite is looking for another thrill!


Can't you see that whether this is true or not, his ways are not appropriate?

As for your posts, I am sorry if I sounded irked, the fact is that I don't like trolls (like CD, not you) and I have no patience with people defending trolla all the same.

I could agree with most of your impatience for the game release and with not few of CD's comments if presented correctly and not tossing them away to the developer and the forum members.

Yes, the game is late, yes, I am dissapointed, yes, there will be no AI by now, I dont care a damn about the Debug (besides, stupid moves can be done, and cheaters do exist), and other matters, but I don't know if this will be a newer version of CWiF with a little painting (I don't think so but again...).

But no, I don't consider that we have the right to request a date, and complain if the date we strip off him ('cause he didn't want to give one in the first place) is not fulfilled, nor we have anything to say about whether Steve wants to do the work himself or bring a team of 20 to help.

It's his decision. Nobody worked on WIF for computer except for Chris Marinacci for 5 years, if you want to do it your way you can speak with ADG and start a new project with 20 programmers, then we will see if the project is viable.

Pressing on Steve to give a date that he is not ready to give, after he did in the past and blew it, is not fair. Pressing him to release the game NOW with bugs and all, would be a temptation for any programmer who wants his ca$h now, it says a lot about Steve that he fights the temptation of cashing the game and making you happy through releasing the game and then patch it for 3 years till it works correctly.

Thank God, Steve is not Patchdox.

Again, I have nothing against you, and I share your concern and eagerness, but I am an adult and can wait the necessary time for a project to be carried correctly. One of the teenagers' traits in the game forums use to be the request of immediate release, followed once the game is released faulty (because of them) by complains about the bugs. It could be called harassment.

Let's be adult, complain about the game features or not politely, accept the game will be ready when it's ready and not a second earlier, and that Steve can have help or not depending only on his own opinion. Let's not be naughty children and call names. [:)]



Greyshaft -> RE: WHEN? (8/20/2013 1:01:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:

ORIGINAL: pochepiller
Educated guess from Warspite, Crussdaddy, Neilcaster ex girlfriend, Bo, Geronimo would be great.

What is yours guess?

David
Québec
Canada
warspite1
I'm somewhere between Neilster's ex-girlfriend and Geronimo.

The vision is hideous but I hope you enjoy yourself [;)]



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