RE: When?

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Anendrue -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 5:02:00 PM)
@ Macgregor I see you like GEICO but I am a USAA member for 30+ years. Sorry but GEICO never comes close.

SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 5:22:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abj9562 I and many other will still buy the boxed version but ADG needs to expand the market to stay in business and so does Matrix. So lets cheer both of them on to success instead of our personal desires. I much prefer a win win situation than some win and some lose. DITTOS Pessimists and optimists generally get to the same place but optimists are happier on the journey. Pessimists are better at handling unforseen problems because they worry when there is nothing to worry about. Optimists are better at handling surprising success because they expect miracles. Realists find the balance between the two. At this point, IMO, pessimists should be worried that the game will not live up to expectations. At this point, IMO, optimists should be hoping that sales will be great and MATRIX / Steve will be rewarded for taking the risk of computerizing this game No one really knows what the market is for this game. Everyone has an idea. The market doesn't even know for sure because the product is not finished. Face it, if initial sales are good, retailers are more likely to want the game on the shelves. Hard core wargames are making headway into the market... Consider Total War, Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron, Supreme Ruler 2010. All of these are what I would call hard core wargames. They require assimilation of lots of information and considerate thought in order to play well. Maybe it IS time for hex based wargames to make a comeback. If so, this may be THE GAME to make traditional wargames have their day in the sun. I hope so. You see, there are benefits beyond just WIF if this game is a huge success. (I know that is heresy, but I believe it [:D]) It needs to be RIGHT. It needs to be right on all fronts. Being that it does not rely on reflexes and does not give the adrenaline rush of games like Quake, StarCraft, and Rise of Nations, it MUST do the things it does do WELL. I would bet that when things start coming together, that Matrix will open PrePurchasing to have hard numbers to show off to possible retailers so they can get this thing onto the shelves. At least I hope so. Sorry for going on and on.

Anendrue -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 5:27:17 PM)
Well said SamuraiProgrammer.

macgregor -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 5:36:40 PM)
The entire argument of what Steve should do is superfluous, as he has already announced his course of action. That being said, these speculations on sales imperatives I find insulting of the WiF community, as it totally overlooks them in favor of an uninitiated demographic, for which you want to market a product that will be to some degree WiF in name only(the pbem anyway -thus adding insult to injury).

micheljq -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 5:37:44 PM)
NVM

bo -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 5:53:06 PM)
Wow this is getting hot and heavy, the rift is getting wider and wider, I dont think Steve is going to be swayed by anyone, he is committed to a great game, he and Matrix will make all decisions about AI or no AI good AI or just passable AI. I wrote a post back a little bit didnt get any reaction so I guess I was just misguided in my feelings [as usual]. Now because the tone is getting slightly nasty I will try again. What is your problem you no AI people? You have Vassar which seems to be very good to play WIF, we AI people have nothing yet. Maybe we could play Vassar but you pretty much have to know most of the rules which I dont have the time or energy to learn that is why I was counting on an AI to help me with MWIF. I said before stop blaming AI people if there is such a person and blame the right people and that is Matrix for not giving Steve the extra help he needed to complete this game. The reason this game is taking so long [6 years] is because Steve should have brought in other programers but he didn't and thats the truth and you all know it! If this game is going to be running into 2010 and you know it is then this problem is on them [Steve and matrix] Put the blame where it belongs, please use some common sense because it is surely lacking here. Willy

coregames -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 5:58:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abj9562 I may be underestimating the Wif following but perhaps your cutting the market segment short. To compare board games sales to PC game sales is apples and oranges. They are both fruit but for different tastes. In my estimation this is a specific attempt to expand into new markets and not stay in the same dwindling group of board gamers that we are. While I would allow that traditional over-the-table wargaming is not as popular as it once was, at least when compared to the growth of computer wargaming, boardgaming in general is not dwindling, and in fact has continually been increasing in popularity. Articles from many magazines and websites will easily confirm this, for anyone who wishes to take the time to check. Regarding your first point about WiF in specific, I think you neglect one aspect of the game and its potential appeal. Harry and Greg created a game that has in the subsequent years been honed to a surprising degree, and that labor of love shows in the game as it exists. To tinker and tamper with it in order to widen its appeal runs the risk of losing more than just the pre-existing WiF community. Such an approach could also muddle the consistency, the balance, and the rewarding expererience that emerged after so much play. Why would Steve waste the millions of hours of over-the-board play that essentially amount to playtesting for this product?

undercovergeek -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 6:00:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bo Now because the tone is getting slightly nasty I will try again. What is your problem you no AI people? You have Vassar which seems to be very good to play WIF, we AI people have nothing yet. Maybe we could play Vassar but you pretty much have to know most of the rules i dont think anyones being nasty - its a discussion, people are allowed to agree and disagree!! Im a no AI person, but i have absolutely no knowledge of WiF so vassal is as useless to me as it is to you - ive never even seen it in a box!! my plan is tutorial, tutorial, find an opponent on pbem with same skill as me and lets enjoy the game!! no nastiness, no arguements just a great game to be played over the internet...... with no AI ........ cough, cough [:'(]

undercovergeek -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 6:01:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: micheljq Stop feeding the Troll, please... very constructive, moves the discussion right on that does well done

bo -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 6:14:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: undercovergeek quote: ORIGINAL: bo Now because the tone is getting slightly nasty I will try again. What is your problem you no AI people? You have Vassar which seems to be very good to play WIF, we AI people have nothing yet. Maybe we could play Vassar but you pretty much have to know most of the rules i dont think anyones being nasty - its a discussion, people are allowed to agree and disagree!! Im a no AI person, but i have absolutely no knowledge of WiF so vassal is as useless to me as it is to you - ive never even seen it in a box!! my plan is tutorial, tutorial, find an opponent on pbem with same skill as me and lets enjoy the game!! no nastiness, no arguements just a great game to be played over the internet...... with no AI ........ cough, cough [:'(] He he I hear you Geek, I will change my opinion just a little nasty, where it is getting testy is the blaming the stalled game on AI people, I really did think that you could use Vassal if I am wrong then I appoligize to you and all other players. [BUT WHY IS IT THAT YOU AND OTHER PLAYERS DONT BLAME WHO I BLAMED] A little guts would be helpful and if you feel I am wrong tell me where. PLEASE! Willy

bo -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 6:17:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bo quote: ORIGINAL: undercovergeek quote: ORIGINAL: bo Now because the tone is getting slightly nasty I will try again. What is your problem you no AI people? You have Vassar which seems to be very good to play WIF, we AI people have nothing yet. Maybe we could play Vassar but you pretty much have to know most of the rules sorry about this duplicate my mistake. Willy i dont think anyones being nasty - its a discussion, people are allowed to agree and disagree!! Im a no AI person, but i have absolutely no knowledge of WiF so vassal is as useless to me as it is to you - ive never even seen it in a box!! my plan is tutorial, tutorial, find an opponent on pbem with same skill as me and lets enjoy the game!! no nastiness, no arguements just a great game to be played over the internet...... with no AI ........ cough, cough [:'(]

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 6:44:05 PM)
"Curiouser and curiouser" said Alice.

macgregor -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 7:15:03 PM)
The argument for installing a banging AI in WiF product #1 was already won, by Steve, before this latest round of discussion even got started. There are practical reasons why it would be easier to program the 3 styles of play all-at-once that I cannot challenge. Steve says it makes more sense, and I'm in no position to disagree with him. but if someone wants to argue it should be for marketing...aye but if it's trouble you be lookin' fer.......

Anendrue -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 8:06:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: coregames quote: ORIGINAL: abj9562 I may be underestimating the Wif following but perhaps your cutting the market segment short. To compare board games sales to PC game sales is apples and oranges. They are both fruit but for different tastes. In my estimation this is a specific attempt to expand into new markets and not stay in the same dwindling group of board gamers that we are. While I would allow that traditional over-the-table wargaming is not as popular as it once was, at least when compared to the growth of computer wargaming, boardgaming in general is not dwindling, and in fact has continually been increasing in popularity. Articles from many magazines and websites will easily confirm this, for anyone who wishes to take the time to check. Regarding your first point about WiF in specific, I think you neglect one aspect of the game and its potential appeal. Harry and Greg created a game that has in the subsequent years been honed to a surprising degree, and that labor of love shows in the game as it exists. To tinker and tamper with it in order to widen its appeal runs the risk of losing more than just the pre-existing WiF community. Such an approach could also muddle the consistency, the balance, and the rewarding expererience that emerged after so much play. Why would Steve waste the millions of hours of over-the-board play that essentially amount to playtesting for this product? You may be right that attempting to widen the appeal could be detrimental. So if they are taking a big risk it could be a big gain or loss. Since it is pure speculation on my part I hope it is a big gain. That could only widen its success while we traditional WiFers will still love our game.

Anendrue -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 8:11:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets "Curiouser and curiouser" said Alice. Gee you actually have time for this debate. You amaze me at every turn. I thought sleep deprivation caused a withdrawl from reality. However this has been a fun and interesting discourse today.

Anendrue -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 8:20:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: macgregor The argument for installing a banging AI in WiF product #1 was already won, by Steve, before this latest round of discussion even got started. There are practical reasons why it would be easier to program the 3 styles of play all-at-once that I cannot challenge. Steve says it makes more sense, and I'm in no position to disagree with him. but if someone wants to argue it should be for marketing...aye but if it's trouble you be lookin' fer....... From Stve's last monthly update. quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets I ran a simple survey of the World in Flames forum members asking which mode(s) of play they expected to use, as a percentage of the time they spend playing MWIF. This was motivated by a conversation with David Heath about how important the AI Opponent will be. My guess prior to this survey was that the break down would be 50% NetPlay, 30% AIO, 20% PBEM. I was completely wrong. Based on 126 respondents, the estimated percentages are 53% AIO, 22% PBEM, 17% NetPlay, 6% solitaire, and 2% head-to-head. From the comments players made, solitaire, and to a lesser extent AIO, will be used to gain experience with the game so they can play against human opponents using PBEM and NetPlay. But over 60% of the respondents expect to play against the AI Opponent most of the time. I now agree with Dave: the AIO is crucial for sales. I believe the part I underlined and bolded indicates it is clearly a marketing issue.

macgregor -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 8:46:07 PM)
Well in that case, I'm in disagreement with you, Steve, and Dave as I think the first people to buy this game by vast majority will be the dedicated WiF fans who are buying a known quantity. They are like a ripe cash crop ready for harvest. After that, it's anybody's guess. But what you are talking about is the difference between a game that has thrived for decades with a known demographic, and an entirely new way of playing and an entirely unknown demographic. The practical issues Steve brought up tip the scales, so the point is moot regardless.

Shrike451 -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 8:46:17 PM)
Alas my patient waiting has come to naught. When I first saw the anounced partnership of matrix and ADG in 2003 I was hopefull for an excellent product. In the intervening six years I have seen firm release dates come and go for three of them but this is the last straw. I have decided to turn back now as the WiF mirage allways seems to be just around the corner only to disappear every few months.

Anendrue -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 9:01:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shrike451 Alas my patient waiting has come to naught.� When I first saw the anounced partnership of matrix and ADG in 2003 I was hopefull for an excellent product.� In the intervening six years I have seen firm release dates come and go for three of them but this is the last straw.� I have decided to turn back now as the WiF mirage allways seems to be just around the corner only to disappear every few months.� �� We are sorry that you feel this is the last straw. WiF is by far the pinnacle of wargaming. Personally I have spent way too much money on inprepared games shafted into the public by desperate publishers for quick money. I for one will stand by the publishers who choose quality over a fast money. In a personal context; I would never want to enter combat with fellow soldiers, sailors, airman and marines who would settle for a few deaths to go home a day quicker. Persaverance, good planning and hard work result in more successes than failures by far. I like the way marines do it, "adapt and overcome".

macgregor -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 9:15:43 PM)
quote: We are sorry that you feel this is the last straw. Why are you sorry? And you said we...who is we? Neither one of us control Matrix games. We can move along any debate, but that's about it. The ripe cash crop I mentioned may be starting to fall off the vine. But I'll still place my faith that guys like Shrike451 will buy the game before any of these so-called 'pc game experts'.

Anendrue -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 9:30:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: macgregor quote: We are sorry that you feel this is the last straw. Why are you sorry? And you said we...who is we? Neither one of us control Matrix games. We can move along any debate, but that's about it. The ripe cash crop I mentioned may be starting to fall off the vine. But I'll still place my faith that guys like Shrike451 will buy the game before any of these so-called 'pc game experts'. We is the 'royal we'. I shouldn't speak so broadly but I wanted to covey the community will miss the departure of most anyone. I have enjoyed this spirited debate. In fact every team I have ever built, I always desire those who disgree as well as many other personality types. As Patton said, "If we all think alike then someone is not thinking." (Quote is as close as I remember so may not be 100% correctly quoted.) I also agree I believe he and many like him will probably buy the game on its final release.

MajorDude -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 9:53:49 PM)
Just for information purposes, I will not only purchase the game for myself, but will probably get it as a gift for 1 or 2 other people I know since I know how delightful a good WIF game can be, and hope they will enjoy it as much since they truly enjoy strategy games. [8D] That said, imho the players who may be a bit more of a 'hard sell' may be those who have been 'brought up' on so many 'Real-Time" strategy games who look first and foremost to see what they can blow up in a game, then try to figure the rest out. [:D] They may not understand at first why the land counters don't burn and shrivel upon defeat, why the naval counters don't go "gloog, gloog" as they slip beneath the surface, and why the air counters don't spin and smoke in a death spiral to finally go "kaboom" as they hit the dirt. [8D] Those intro/tutorial sessions will be very important for them so they can grasp the basics and learn how not everything in a strategy game goes "klunk, klunk" and runs around blowing up landscapes and buildings with pyrotechnics... lol (even though I personally enjoy those kind of games too, do I hear a COH, ETW in the house? - lol) [:'(]

SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 10:00:00 PM)
Longtime Quake/Quake2/Quake3/Quake4 player here! Can you say RocketJump? Also Warcraft/Warcraft2/Starcraft/RiseOfNations (may be best in class)/Sins Of A Solar Empire I loved Railroads! (a real time strategy game) but it was too buggy But I really prefer turn based games. I sleep better without an adrenaline rush right before bedtime. Just call me grandpa [:D]

Greywolf -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 10:00:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MajorDude Just for information purposes, I will not only purchase the game for myself, but will probably get it as a gift for 1 or 2 other people I know since I know how delightful a good WIF game can be, and hope they will enjoy it as much since they truly enjoy strategy games. [8D] That said, imho the players who may be a bit more of a 'hard sell' may be those who have been 'brought up' on so many 'Real-Time" strategy games who look first and foremost to see what they can blow up in a game, then try to figure the rest out. [:D] They may not understand at first why the land counters don't burn and shrivel upon defeat, why the naval counters don't go "gloog, gloog" as they slip beneath the surface, and why the air counters don't spin and smoke in a death spiral to finally go "kaboom" as they hit the dirt. [8D] Those intro/tutorial sessions will be very important for them so they can grasp the basics and learn how not everything in a strategy game goes "klunk, klunk" and runs around blowing up landscapes and buildings with pyrotechnics... lol (even though I personally enjoy those kind of games too, do I hear a COH, ETW in the house? - lol) [:'(] Hum , Steve , if it isn't too late I think it would actually very nice to have the counter "sunk" with the "gloog, gloog" effect :) +1 for the best idea on how to improve WiF with the computer version. Also could we have a "Torpedo Loss" sound when choosing a submarine combat ? and the "Black Sheep" alarm when beginning the interception sub-phase ?

SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 10:19:56 PM)
OOOH! OOOH! And the Hogans Heroes Theme Song whenever a pilot gets a modifier for being over enemy territory

Jagdtiger14 -> RE: When? (6/9/2009 11:17:20 PM)
Look...here is the bottom line. Steve gets paid based on sales. I dont think Matrix cares too much when this game comes out. I dont know what Steves' personal financial position is(big factor as to his eagerness to complete MWiF...but lets assume normal/average...ie he's not "riich" or "retired" and needs income from this project), and I dont know what Steve and Matrix think sales will be, but Steve will produce this product with a minimum mandatory quality factor that satisfies both he and Mattrix with the expectation of satisfying most of us(and with the promise of future satisfaction(add on #2, #3, and so on)). The main question is...how much time does Steve want to put into this project above and beyond a working Netplay/PBEM with a minimal AI...at some point there are diminishing returns on time spent vs amount of money he can make on this. There are also real world economic presures on his expected earnings(current devaluation of the dollar and inflation over the next year plus the way this economy is going...a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow). So once the basics are set, how far does he want to go on tweaking this. Do he and Matrix think they will get enough additional sales to make it worth spending the time increasing the AI's quality? Only Steve and Matrix can answer these questions, and there-in lies the time of MWiF completion. C

macgregor -> RE: When? (6/10/2009 12:22:02 AM)
quote: Hum , Steve , if it isn't too late I think it would actually very nice to have the counter "sunk" with the "gloog, gloog" effect :) +1 for the best idea on how to improve WiF with the computer version. Also could we have a "Torpedo Loss" sound when choosing a submarine combat ? and the "Black Sheep" alarm when beginning the interception sub-phase ? An interesting thought. Though in WiF, naval losses are generally selected by either the phasing or non-phasing player, thus making the blub,blub, somewhat anticlimactic. Now the Hogan's Heroes idea...good, but I'd rather see that kind of stuff added after the release.

TemKarl -> RE: When? (6/10/2009 1:49:54 AM)
My interest is in the AI version. I want, and hope ( and expect even ) that Steve will produce something special. If Matrix and Steve decided to release a "no-AI" version initially while continuing to perfect the AI code, I'd be happy with that - I might even buy it, and tinker with some solitaire play. But it's really Steve's call - it would only make sense to consider a two-release schedule if the AI was going to be a significant development ( 6 to 12 months or more). Otherwise, I can't see any real advantage for Steve and Matrix - there are a lot of details (box art, manuals, installs, etc) that could/would change between an AI and non-AI release, and preparing one set and then 6 or 8 weeks later preparing a second makes little sense. I look forward to an AI that's worth the wait...

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: When? (6/10/2009 4:43:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cwie My interest is in the AI version.� I want, and hope (�and expect even ) that Steve will produce something special.� If Matrix and Steve decided to release a "no-AI" version initially while continuing to perfect the AI code, I'd�be happy with that - I might even buy it, and tinker with some solitaire play.� But it's really Steve's call - it would only make sense to consider a two-release schedule if the AI was going to be a significant�development ( 6 to 12 months or more).� Otherwise, I can't see any real advantage for Steve and Matrix - there are a lot of details (box art, manuals, installs, etc) that could/would change between an AI and non-AI release, and preparing one set and then 6 or 8 weeks later preparing a second makes little sense. I look forward to an AI that's worth the wait... I want to publicly acknowledge Karl's (Cwie's) help on getting the OGG files for sound to work and coding the improved random number generator for MWIF. [&o][&o] I spent hundreds of hours playing the board game War in Europe and if I had any time at all would look seriously at CWIE.

MajorDude -> RE: When? (6/10/2009 4:25:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greywolf quote: ORIGINAL: MajorDude ... They may not understand at first why the land counters don't burn and shrivel upon defeat, why the naval counters don't go "gloog, gloog" as they slip beneath the surface, and why the air counters don't spin and smoke in a death spiral to finally go "kaboom" as they hit the dirt. [8D] ... Hum , Steve , if it isn't too late I think it would actually very nice to have the counter "sunk" with the "gloog, gloog" effect :) +1 for the best idea on how to improve WiF with the computer version. Also could we have a "Torpedo Loss" sound when choosing a submarine combat ? and the "Black Sheep" alarm when beginning the interception sub-phase ? Now I am curious. What sorts of 'in-game' sounds are there now in mwif (not just intro music theme, etc.)? I also ask that because I remembered that there are almost no sounds at all in cwif while most games these days have a lot of sound - music, sound effects, voice acting, etc. [:)]

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