RE: Long Time Coming! (Full Version)

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yvesp -> RE: Long Time Coming! (9/12/2009 8:55:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

As for writing a script language for the casual player to use "to write his own scripts", ...

Have you stopped by a good book store and looked at the section on programming languages? Try to find a book there that is less than 100 pages. Then try to read the first 2 chapters.


Unfortunately, I have, programming beeing my job [:'(]

quote:


I have no interest in trying to teach inexperienced programmers how to program. Nor am I interested in writing the definitive book on LAIO (Language for AI Opponent), which I've created for MWIF's AIO. To do so would require at least another year of work. Just laying out the chapters and sketching in the content for each would be time consuming. To hope that the result would be practical and used by more than a few dozen people would be very optimistic.

Here is an example of a simple script for setting up the units:


In that, I agree with you.
I understand that you don't want nor have the time to teach basic programming in your AI language.

However, maybe there are among us some dedicated people who both have the programming background to take the deep dive, and the time to help you writing scripts. It's unfortunate that I don't have the time. These people could be taught rather fast, with a minimum of documentation.

The script you show just highlights what I think : they are long but unlike true programs, they are mostly independant from each others and thus could be written by different (competent) people.

Obviously, having said that, I am in no position to even suggest the best way : you're in the driver seat, and nobody knows even a fraction of what you know about the project.[&o]

Yves




vlcz -> RE: Long Time Coming! (9/17/2009 2:26:27 PM)

I have been involved for 22 years now in software programming and analisis. I would not dare with such a task, Even if assured it is half as amussing as it seems.

After seeing the deep analisys done for the persian setup and the excellently organized work, my faith in this game (and the quality of its AI) has grow much higher

/clap



PDiFolco -> RE: Long Time Coming! (9/18/2009 8:18:51 PM)

I'm not quite sure of where all the still-to-do workload lies, but the AI looks like a big chunk of it. Then why not release an "early" AI-less version, for example as an open-beta for pre-ordering customers, in the same vein than what Stardock does ?
This would allow to debug/streamline the rest of the game, and give something to play to online players as well as boardgame solo addicts, reduce the now very loooong delay before release, give some cash to the devs so they can still eat while porgramming the AI, many advantages ! [:D]
I can't see any real downsides, as long as the AI-less game is not bug-ridden...



macgregor -> RE: Long Time Coming! (9/19/2009 12:38:07 AM)

I don't think that most of the delay is the AIO but simply getting a game with so many rules and exceptions to work properly. I've already seen an AI script that Steve posted (what was it, Persia?), and it looks as though he knows how to do it. He's done the right thing by opening threads on each country's strategies which hopefully he can reference for how the AI should answer moves and situations the game might present. Come to think of it, there's close to an infinite amount. So while the AI may be randomized, there will be a finite amount of thinking the AI can handle -hopefully enough to cover important things discussed on the threads. I think it's great that people are offering their services, though I think Steve's got as large of a team as he wants to captain right now. Still anything can happen. If anyone wants to get this to release, it's obviously Steve. I think we're all very fortunate to have this much work being done. There are games...( I won't go there). As someone who has been quite anxious and disappointed in the wait. All I have to do to calm down is pick up the WiFFE rule book I have in my 3-ring binder and read it from front to back and realize that most of the thousands of sentences require their own chunk of code. If that code is actually finished, and all he's working on is bugs, that's quite a milestone. OTOH considering the multitude of conditions in this game that can produce bugs, I think we could easily be talking thousands. My apologies to Edfactor. His estimate of April 2010 is probably as good as an estimate can be at this point. For all I know he could be on the team.



handeman -> RE: Long Time Coming! (9/23/2009 4:59:28 AM)

Shannon, as far as I'm concerned, the work you have done on MWIF is simply awesome with the resources you have to work with!!! Spend another year in development if you have too. I can wait.



TOMLABEL -> RE: Long Time Coming! (9/23/2009 5:20:17 AM)

I too have been watching this one with great interest, but let's hope its not another year.

I can't tell you how ready I am, but I'm sure I echo the sentiments of many here!

Keep up the great work!


TOMLABEL



Anendrue -> RE: Long Time Coming! (9/24/2009 3:28:39 PM)

Steve, since the majority of your revenue from MWiF (I assume) is tied up in the release how long will you be able to eat? Do we need to start a breadline in Hawaii to keep you going or does Matrix have your back covered?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Long Time Coming! (9/24/2009 6:28:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

Steve, since the majority of your revenue from MWiF (I assume) is tied up in the release how long will you be able to eat? Do we need to start a breadline in Hawaii to keep you going or does Matrix have your back covered?

Loving and supportive wife takes care of that (38+ years married).



morgil -> RE: Long Time Coming! (9/24/2009 8:14:17 PM)

38+ years married ??[X(][X(]
I was under the impression that you was like 35ish [:)]
Well, all the more [&o] Old Man [:'(]




kc_chiefs -> RE: When? (9/27/2009 6:13:08 PM)

The AI programming/bug fixes will take months to complete. There is no way that a quality product could come out by December or even March. Steve isn't even finished working on the bug fixes, the testers are still finding errors in the game!

How this one forum member can even think that it would be out in the next six months is beyond me ...

I agree with the comment that Origins would be adequate. The key thing is to know that it WILL come out with errors and we will be finding them as we play. Name me one program that anyone has written that didn't have some error in it.

I plan on waiting for the third or fourth update before I buy it meaning probably sometime in 2011. I can wait for the game even though the concept looks great (I owned the board game series but never played it).

Bottom line: no amount of checking can catch everything. I have helped put out three commercial products and not one of them has come out error free. Its a given that the customer will be part of the checking process. With cost considerations and the need to make revenues to continue development this is just a fact of life.

The question becomes: How much can you find before you release?



Joseignacio -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 9:20:34 AM)

If this is all true, maybe we would need an update in the release date. I will not complain, a game is ready when it is ready. there is no point in delivering a game full of bugs.



bo -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 3:31:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

If this is all true, maybe we would need an update in the release date. I will not complain, a game is ready when it is ready. there is no point in delivering a game full of bugs.

Jose you are remarkable I mean that in a good way, [patience] please no release date thats what started my downfall here. I swore to my sorry self I would never post here again with this farce calle forums of MWIF. I have not done so for 3 months [maybe a good idea huh] just stopped by to see whats going on and boy was that a mistake, same old same old, a lot of us will be in a nursing home by the time this game is completed, July release date then sept, then nov. now 2010 maybe, and in my opinion you nice gentle understanding people deserve what your getting, maybe just maybe complaining to Matrix to get Steve all the help he needs just might do it. I know some wont like this negative post but maybe you ought to look to yourselves for allowing this to go on [no help for Steve] for close to six years.

Bo



composer99 -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 4:35:35 PM)

Mistaking brusqueness for forthrightness, Bo?

Apart from any questions of whether it would be worthwhile to bring additional programmers into the mix at this stage (I concede that with the way Steve has documented his code at least another programmer could understand what is going on), there is the money question. Will MWiF sell enough copies to pay more developers to work on the project? Probably not, especially if additional personnel drive the unit price up to the point where only dyed-in-the-wool WiF players will buy the game. We could complain to Matrix all we wanted, but if it comes down to the money question then we're not going to get more developers on the team.

I agree that us "nice, gentle, understanding" people (the latter two qualities are often listed as virtues, and for good reason) deserve what we are getting. And what we are getting is a quality product. I certainly feel we deserve it. We'll certainly be paying for it.



macgregor -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 6:04:14 PM)

Steve is a good friend of mine and I will defend him wherever and whenever I can. But I think Bo brings up valid concerns that I wouldn't want to see squelched. This game may well take another 6 months to release, but I'm not going to try to usurp an estimate that's really Steve's to make. There's nothing wrong with saying that an estimate is difficult right now. It's very possible with the deliberate, methodical approach that Steve is on, that even if the AI is not close to completion, it could quickly reach a point where all that's necessary is to 'fill in the blanks' with information that he already has concluded. I'd say right now we have to see how long it takes to fix the bugs. Once that critical milestone has been reached, which Steve is making progress on an almost daily basis, a much more accurate estimate will be made. The excitement over a release has caused anticipation, anxiety, and some impatience. But I think that is only natural, and in the long run a good thing.



composer99 -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 7:14:52 PM)

I don't disagree with (what I perceive to be) the underlying substance of Bo's argument: that the game has taken an awfully long time to come out and that the constantly shifting 'release date' is a cause for concern, irritation, and doubt as to the success of this project. I am getting impatient myself. So I apologize if that is what my riposte implies.

However, I certainly disagree with the notion that the fora are a 'farce' and with the characterization of us contributors & more optimistic types as being naive or coddling. I also disagree that Steve hasn't been getting help: the fora are stacked with people voluntarily assisting on their own time. Imagine how behind things would be if Steve had to take care of the map all by himself without Patrice's help, for example. These comments strike me as cheap shots rather than meaningful concerns about the progress of MWiF development.



HansHafen -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 8:15:19 PM)

I like the forums and the monthly updates. It gives us some insight into the project. Otherwise we would be completely in the dark with an "in development" notation on the games web page. Imagine the anxiety etc with only that knowledge!

These forums act as a marketing tool as well as a source of free labor. All in all it is extremely positive for all parties involved. (Nothing is ever perfect, however!)

Thanks to all the people who contribute your time and effort gratis!



composer99 -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 9:11:08 PM)

If the only thing about MWiF to find was what was on the ADG website, the Matrix screenshots and the MWiF game website (In Development - Coming Soon!) I would have given up on this game long, long ago.



warspite1 -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 9:23:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I don't disagree with (what I perceive to be) the underlying substance of Bo's argument: that the game has taken an awfully long time to come out and that the constantly shifting 'release date' is a cause for concern, irritation, and doubt as to the success of this project. I am getting impatient myself. So I apologize if that is what my riposte implies.

However, I certainly disagree with the notion that the fora are a 'farce' and with the characterization of us contributors & more optimistic types as being naive or coddling. I also disagree that Steve hasn't been getting help: the fora are stacked with people voluntarily assisting on their own time. Imagine how behind things would be if Steve had to take care of the map all by himself without Patrice's help, for example. These comments strike me as cheap shots rather than meaningful concerns about the progress of MWiF development.

Warspite1

A Nice, measured response Composer99



bo -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 9:30:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Mistaking brusqueness for forthrightness, Bo?

Apart from any questions of whether it would be worthwhile to bring additional programmers into the mix at this stage (I concede that with the way Steve has documented his code at least another programmer could understand what is going on), there is the money question. Will MWiF sell enough copies to pay more developers to work on the project? Probably not, especially if additional personnel drive the unit price up to the point where only dyed-in-the-wool WiF players will buy the game. We could complain to Matrix all we wanted, but if it comes down to the money question then we're not going to get more developers on the team.

I agree that us "nice, gentle, understanding" people (the latter two qualities are often listed as virtues, and for good reason) deserve what we are getting. And what we are getting is a quality product. I certainly feel we deserve it. We'll certainly be paying for it.



Composer you people are kind understanding nice gentle people I meant that as a compliment and slightly derogatory, there is not one poster here that would not help out the next person here if they needed it, but it seems to me your being put through the hoops by Matrix and friends and you DONT DESERVE IT! I begged Steve in a post no more whens, put it out when its ready. No we had to get another completion date and that just nailed me to the floor sorry. And you people here hoping for a good game at a reasonable price should get a 30% discount and I should be made to pay a 20% penalty on top of the regular price and I will do it if its out by December 2???.

Bo



bo -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 9:40:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Steve is a good friend of mine and I will defend him wherever and whenever I can. But I think Bo brings up valid concerns that I wouldn't want to see squelched. This game may well take another 6 months to release, but I'm not going to try to usurp an estimate that's really Steve's to make. There's nothing wrong with saying that an estimate is difficult right now. It's very possible with the deliberate, methodical approach that Steve is on, that even if the AI is not close to completion, it could quickly reach a point where all that's necessary is to 'fill in the blanks' with information that he already has concluded. I'd say right now we have to see how long it takes to fix the bugs. Once that critical milestone has been reached, which Steve is making progress on an almost daily basis, a much more accurate estimate will be made. The excitement over a release has caused anticipation, anxiety, and some impatience. But I think that is only natural, and in the long run a good thing.

Wow Mac normally you would have ripped me to pieces for going after Matrix [I am not against Steve] I think you have put your feelings on the back burner about the AI and such, wish I could do that, my wife calls me Mr. negativity in my real world at home, I have been trying to figure out how she came to that conclusuon, oh well!

Bo



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 9:56:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Mistaking brusqueness for forthrightness, Bo?

Apart from any questions of whether it would be worthwhile to bring additional programmers into the mix at this stage (I concede that with the way Steve has documented his code at least another programmer could understand what is going on), there is the money question. Will MWiF sell enough copies to pay more developers to work on the project? Probably not, especially if additional personnel drive the unit price up to the point where only dyed-in-the-wool WiF players will buy the game. We could complain to Matrix all we wanted, but if it comes down to the money question then we're not going to get more developers on the team.

I agree that us "nice, gentle, understanding" people (the latter two qualities are often listed as virtues, and for good reason) deserve what we are getting. And what we are getting is a quality product. I certainly feel we deserve it. We'll certainly be paying for it.



Composer you people are kind understanding nice gentle people I meant that as a compliment and slightly derogatory, there is not one poster here that would not help out the next person here if they needed it, but it seems to me your being put through the hoops by Matrix and friends and you DONT DESERVE IT! I begged Steve in a post no more whens, put it out when its ready. No we had to get another completion date and that just nailed me to the floor sorry. And you people here hoping for a good game at a reasonable price should get a 30% discount and I should be made to pay a 20% penalty on top of the regular price and I will do it if its out by December 2???.

Bo

Such optimism. I am referring to the 2.



bo -> RE: When? (9/28/2009 9:57:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

If the only thing about MWiF to find was what was on the ADG website, the Matrix screenshots and the MWiF game website (In Development - Coming Soon!) I would have given up on this game long, long ago.

Farce was not a good word Composer but it was referring to Matrix not to the good people on these forums. I have always been told to step back and think out your answers better before you speak or type. [guess its just not me to do that] I just bought Time of Wrath from Matrix and its pretty good fill in waiting for MWIF. Composer everything you said about another programer cost. etc I accept as logical and sound advice and I respect it. Personally I think a good well done MWIF will sell to just more than board game players, everybody who is a wargamer in this country and elsewhere are hungry for a great WW2 game, they have been a rare commodity lately.

Bo



Joseignacio -> RE: When? (9/29/2009 8:07:33 AM)

Look, Bo,

thanks for your simpathy, but this project is under Matrix banner but is developed by Steven. I guess if there is a pressure on him from Matrix (and I don't know if there is) it is on the side of releasing the product ASAP once it meets the standard quality levels of the market (which as you may know are very low).

Steve is also interested in developing it ASAP since it will be then when all or most of his revenues will arrive. Because of this it is all the more praiseworthy the fact that he is put behind his legitime wish to end the sooner, because of his wish to make a quality product.

As for me, a strategic game without a (good) AI is few more than a Wargameroom game, and at this stage it's exactly the soul of the game what is being developed (AI), I don't want another zombie, like those in the market with good graphics (the easy part) and few more.



composer99 -> RE: When? (9/29/2009 4:22:55 PM)

Thanks for the clarifications, Bo. I generally try not to get my knickers in a twist about what goes on in these fora (particularly this thread since it is where most of the trolls come out from under the bridge [;)]) so I do feel a bit bad about having jumped on you. I guess I did misinterpret your comments so my apologies for that.



bo -> RE: When? (9/29/2009 4:42:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Thanks for the clarifications, Bo. I generally try not to get my knickers in a twist about what goes on in these fora (particularly this thread since it is where most of the trolls come out from under the bridge [;)]) so I do feel a bit bad about having jumped on you. I guess I did misinterpret your comments so my apologies for that.

Come on Composer your not a hard nose guy and if that is jumping on me wow my life is looking easy again, the only thing I have ever tried to do here is light a fire under some backsides including steve, I guess there is a right way and a wrong way, but it always seems to me the right way takes way to long. Please no apoligizes necessary sometimes my posts are not very clear. Its my age.

Bo


.



Jagdtiger14 -> RE: When? (10/1/2009 3:02:40 AM)

By the way...new RAW is coming out soon from Harry/ADG(RAW8?).  Will MWiF stick with RAW7, or go to RAW8?  Not sure how RAW8 will change the game, but since MWiF will not be released anytime soon, could/will RAW8 be incorporated?
C



Joseignacio -> RE: When? (10/1/2009 8:34:59 AM)

Quick question:

Long time since I studied a bit of latin, but isn't the plural of Forum, Fori not Fora?

Not trying to show off, just make sure on how it really was in latin or if in English they have decided to do it otherwise. [:)]



Joseignacio -> RE: When? (10/1/2009 8:40:33 AM)

I don't know exactly the contents of RAW7 but I have noticed that the version of the game does not use the FiF options (I believe), including the three-dice combat table.

I hope the new RAW is not implemented if it can delay the game more time. Besides, from some years to now, it is my opinion that the new versions of WIF are worsening the game, like the oil rules (which I never use) , the mentioned combat table the recovery of 50% of the destroyed (land) units in national territory...

So I hope the game build will not be delayed to include (what in my opinion are) new rules that make the game worse.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: When? (10/1/2009 9:37:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Quick question:

Long time since I studied a bit of latin, but isn't the plural of Forum, Fori not Fora?

Not trying to show off, just make sure on how it really was in latin or if in English they have decided to do it otherwise. [:)]

As I recall (from 1962!) um => a, us => i, and a => ae. Much dust and many cobwebs covered those brain cells.



Gresbeck -> RE: When? (10/1/2009 9:45:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


As I recall (from 1962!) um => a, us => i, and a => ae.



Correct. The plural form of forum is "fora". Though AFAIK the word forum is also used in the masculine form of "forus". That's why fori is also correct, as plural form of "forus".



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