RE: When?

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paulderynck -> RE: When? (11/10/2009 5:24:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: winky51 I look at it that if you cant meet the expectations of the user then you should push his expectations back because he wont notice. Developer: "X game will come out with an AI and network play, internet play, PBEM" User: "oh boy it has an AI it will be challenging" Users always expect more from an AI than is suggested. When the user gets the game they are disappointed and will play once then bad mouth the game to others ignoring the good parts. The game developer failed to meet the expectation of the user, indirectly, because users expect more. We all hope for an awesome AI. Now... Developer: "X game will not have an AI in this current version but we will have one in a later patch. We have over the internet play, network play, PBEM. User: "oh boy network play, too bad it doesnt have AI play so I better start getting some opponents." In this case the developer has to make it as easy as possible to make sure users can get opponents which is far simpler, and less time consuming, then writing a soso or crappy AI. In the end the user will talk about the "fun game over the internet" they had with their opponents. Their focus will be on the positive not the negative. You gave them a product that met their expectations, you got it out faster which allowed for free word of mouth advertising, and you provided a forum for users to get a very advanced opponent (other users). But now there is the marketing side which happens in all industries. If lets say in Jan of 2010 for the 1st year you can sell 1,000 copies @ $100 with an AI, not make the user completely happy and that is more than. Coming out with the product in Jan 2009 with no AI and selling 800 copies in 2 years but making the user happy... well then its a simple money equation. But now toss in future sales and a different twist even if a sale ISNT made on WIF.... X user buys product and is dissapointed because the AI is weak. Y user asks "how is WIF?" X user says "the AI sucks dont bother".... now Y user wont buy product. Future sales lost and maybe even future sales from the company is lost for other products. now with no AI installed meeting expectations X user doesnt buy product. Y user asks "did you buy WIF?", X user says "no it doesnt have AI", Y user might still inquire to the product realizing "well how does it play then? ooo network play. ooo they have GREAT support for finding opponents" Y user buys it, or at worst doesnt but doesnt hold a negative view of the developer. Take War in Europe by Decision Games. They came out with the original with NO AI. Now they remade it better than their DOS version which was fairly good for its time. People tend to focus on the negative and only remember that. Everyday we are bombarded by negative news, constantly, non-stop. Our brains are naturally attracted to it. People love to say whats wrong with something far more than whats right. So I think products should be geared to avoid that situation. I work in IT and we work that same way. An executive has a broken laptop. He tells us he has a meeting in 2h30m and he needs it by then. We know we can fix it in 30m. We tell him it will take 1hr to fix it. So we get it done in 45m due to complications and he is happy because we exceeded his expectations of 1hr. If we told him 30m and took 35m he would only focus on the negative and file a complaint even though we were 5m late. I think if WIF was put out before the AI was done word of mouth alone would make it sell more. AI could come out later. Also the programmer would get far more feedback from a wider field of players. Im not an expert on marketing and it could very well be Im wrong in this case and even if the AI is poor people would still buy more than if it had no AI at all and this wouldnt affect future customers or products. I couldn't agree more. Setting up and encouraging a player community for finding opponents is something that could be done by volunteer ravenous WiF fans that follow this forum rather than by Matrix or the developer.

Lützow -> RE: When? (11/10/2009 5:51:46 PM)
Even a mediocre AI is better than no AI, as it gives new players the opportunity to learn the basics before they possibly switch to PBEM. If Matrix delivers a non-ai WiF, it will solely sell to those already being familiar with it's ruleset, while the rest is probably going to refrain. See it as a chance to increase the current player base and aside of this, Matrix released several grognard-style wargames in 2009, so some have to be left over for next year. Actually I rather prefer to wait for something, than knowing there will be no interesting stuff for the near future.

norvandave -> RE: When? (11/10/2009 6:20:13 PM)
Matrix will not be able to charge what they want for this game without an AI. People are not going to shell out $59 for a game that has no AI on the promise that perhaps down the road it may have an AI. I for one, will not buy this game without a reasonable AI. I haven't got the schedule to coordinate with others, especially for a game like this one which would take several months (years?) to play by email.

winky51 -> RE: When? (11/11/2009 2:34:09 AM)
http://www.decisiongames.com/wwii/europe/europe.htm $60 WiE no AI One thing that can be done is to write some scenarios for WIF. Germany vs Russia, Germany vs France, Germany vs Poland. 3 turns of the Pacific. Thats easy AI to write or certainly EASIER than the whole game. I just gave my thoughts, Im not in marketing. You see all these ads on TV for junk product and think "what idiot would buy that?" then they appear on "How I Got Rich" show next year and you scratch your head. Not saying Matrix is junk BTW, I like all their games. They did a good job on em.

macgregor -> RE: When? (11/11/2009 3:01:35 AM)
Is someone trying to steal my old argument? We discussed this. Steve explained that making MWiF without an AI and then trying to add the AI was like trying to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich before adding the bread. with Steve's style however, we get to somewhat see that 'the wheels are(indeed) in motion'. It's like watching sausage being made or for some, like watching paint dry. As much as one may want to explode like a limpet,we must maintain. Ask yourself, 'have you helped?' I offered but now admit I've been terribly slow at providing the requested task. How can I expect more from others when I offer so little? Steve is plodding along on course and on target. It's a long journey however.

Joseignacio -> RE: When? (11/11/2009 6:52:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: norvandave Matrix will not be able to charge what they want for this game without an AI. People are not going to shell out $59 for a game that has no AI on the promise that perhaps down the road it may have an AI. I for one, will not buy this game without a reasonable AI. I haven't got the schedule to coordinate with others, especially for a game like this one which would take several months (years?) to play by email. Yes, that is another blank check that is no longer working. People are fed up with promises, mainly because they are not met along the time.

Joseignacio -> RE: When? (11/11/2009 6:59:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: winky51 I look at it that if you cant meet the expectations of the user then you should push his expectations back because he wont notice. Developer: "X game will come out with an AI and network play, internet play, PBEM" User: "oh boy it has an AI it will be challenging" Users always expect more from an AI than is suggested. When the user gets the game they are disappointed and will play once then bad mouth the game to others ignoring the good parts. The game developer failed to meet the expectation of the user, indirectly, because users expect more. We all hope for an awesome AI. Now... Developer: "X game will not have an AI in this current version but we will have one in a later patch. We have over the internet play, network play, PBEM. User: "oh boy network play, too bad it doesnt have AI play so I better start getting some opponents." In this case the developer has to make it as easy as possible to make sure users can get opponents which is far simpler, and less time consuming, then writing a soso or crappy AI. In the end the user will talk about the "fun game over the internet" they had with their opponents. Their focus will be on the positive not the negative. You gave them a product that met their expectations, you got it out faster which allowed for free word of mouth advertising, and you provided a forum for users to get a very advanced opponent (other users). But now there is the marketing side which happens in all industries. If lets say in Jan of 2010 for the 1st year you can sell 1,000 copies @ $100 with an AI, not make the user completely happy and that is more than. Coming out with the product in Jan 2009 with no AI and selling 800 copies in 2 years but making the user happy... well then its a simple money equation. But now toss in future sales and a different twist even if a sale ISNT made on WIF.... X user buys product and is dissapointed because the AI is weak. Y user asks "how is WIF?" X user says "the AI sucks dont bother".... now Y user wont buy product. Future sales lost and maybe even future sales from the company is lost for other products. now with no AI installed meeting expectations X user doesnt buy product. Y user asks "did you buy WIF?", X user says "no it doesnt have AI", Y user might still inquire to the product realizing "well how does it play then? ooo network play. ooo they have GREAT support for finding opponents" Y user buys it, or at worst doesnt but doesnt hold a negative view of the developer. Take War in Europe by Decision Games. They came out with the original with NO AI. Now they remade it better than their DOS version which was fairly good for its time. People tend to focus on the negative and only remember that. Everyday we are bombarded by negative news, constantly, non-stop. Our brains are naturally attracted to it. People love to say whats wrong with something far more than whats right. So I think products should be geared to avoid that situation. I work in IT and we work that same way. An executive has a broken laptop. He tells us he has a meeting in 2h30m and he needs it by then. We know we can fix it in 30m. We tell him it will take 1hr to fix it. So we get it done in 45m due to complications and he is happy because we exceeded his expectations of 1hr. If we told him 30m and took 35m he would only focus on the negative and file a complaint even though we were 5m late. I think if WIF was put out before the AI was done word of mouth alone would make it sell more. AI could come out later. Also the programmer would get far more feedback from a wider field of players. Im not an expert on marketing and it could very well be Im wrong in this case and even if the AI is poor people would still buy more than if it had no AI at all and this wouldnt affect future customers or products. I agree that when expectations are low it easier to satisfy the customer, but if somebody tells me that the apple cake has no apple or maybe they will be able to serve some apple jam by the middle of my dessert, maybe I will simply have no dessert or eat ice-cream.

oscar72se -> RE: When? (11/11/2009 11:59:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: winky51 I look at it that if you cant meet the expectations of the user then you should push his expectations back because he wont notice. Developer: "X game will come out with an AI and network play, internet play, PBEM" User: "oh boy it has an AI it will be challenging" Users always expect more from an AI than is suggested. When the user gets the game they are disappointed and will play once then bad mouth the game to others ignoring the good parts. The game developer failed to meet the expectation of the user, indirectly, because users expect more. We all hope for an awesome AI. Now... Developer: "X game will not have an AI in this current version but we will have one in a later patch. We have over the internet play, network play, PBEM. User: "oh boy network play, too bad it doesnt have AI play so I better start getting some opponents." In this case the developer has to make it as easy as possible to make sure users can get opponents which is far simpler, and less time consuming, then writing a soso or crappy AI. In the end the user will talk about the "fun game over the internet" they had with their opponents. Their focus will be on the positive not the negative. You gave them a product that met their expectations, you got it out faster which allowed for free word of mouth advertising, and you provided a forum for users to get a very advanced opponent (other users). But now there is the marketing side which happens in all industries. If lets say in Jan of 2010 for the 1st year you can sell 1,000 copies @ $100 with an AI, not make the user completely happy and that is more than. Coming out with the product in Jan 2009 with no AI and selling 800 copies in 2 years but making the user happy... well then its a simple money equation. But now toss in future sales and a different twist even if a sale ISNT made on WIF.... X user buys product and is dissapointed because the AI is weak. Y user asks "how is WIF?" X user says "the AI sucks dont bother".... now Y user wont buy product. Future sales lost and maybe even future sales from the company is lost for other products. now with no AI installed meeting expectations X user doesnt buy product. Y user asks "did you buy WIF?", X user says "no it doesnt have AI", Y user might still inquire to the product realizing "well how does it play then? ooo network play. ooo they have GREAT support for finding opponents" Y user buys it, or at worst doesnt but doesnt hold a negative view of the developer. Take War in Europe by Decision Games. They came out with the original with NO AI. Now they remade it better than their DOS version which was fairly good for its time. People tend to focus on the negative and only remember that. Everyday we are bombarded by negative news, constantly, non-stop. Our brains are naturally attracted to it. People love to say whats wrong with something far more than whats right. So I think products should be geared to avoid that situation. I work in IT and we work that same way. An executive has a broken laptop. He tells us he has a meeting in 2h30m and he needs it by then. We know we can fix it in 30m. We tell him it will take 1hr to fix it. So we get it done in 45m due to complications and he is happy because we exceeded his expectations of 1hr. If we told him 30m and took 35m he would only focus on the negative and file a complaint even though we were 5m late. I think if WIF was put out before the AI was done word of mouth alone would make it sell more. AI could come out later. Also the programmer would get far more feedback from a wider field of players. Im not an expert on marketing and it could very well be Im wrong in this case and even if the AI is poor people would still buy more than if it had no AI at all and this wouldnt affect future customers or products. I can only speak for myself when I say that I wouldn't purchase this product if it doesn't contain an AI. Partly because I would be so dissapointed with the fact that we have been promised this from the start, but also because I have already spent 400-500 dollars on the boardgame. Buying the computer game without an AI would be like buying the computerized version of the same thing that I already own. Regards, Oscar

BallyJ -> RE: When? (11/11/2009 12:50:34 PM)
That is what I am waiting for. The computerised version of the game!!!

Joseignacio -> RE: When? (11/11/2009 1:12:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BallyJ That is what I am waiting for. The computerised version of the game!!! http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php

oscar72se -> RE: When? (11/11/2009 2:15:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joseignacio http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php I couldn't agree more.

LordBeluga -> RE: When? (11/12/2009 8:45:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oscar72se quote: ORIGINAL: Joseignacio http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php I couldn't agree more. This is a great module for an equally great engine. It's a shame no one plays it. [:(]

BallyJ -> RE: When? (11/12/2009 9:46:37 AM)
This is a great module for an equally great engine. It's a shame no one plays it. [:(] [/quote] I never seem to be able to make it work!! Probably becauce of my incompetence regarding computers. Hence my interest in CWIFE?? LOL

Froonp -> RE: When? (11/12/2009 9:52:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordBeluga quote: ORIGINAL: oscar72se quote: ORIGINAL: Joseignacio http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php I couldn't agree more. This is a great module for an equally great engine. It's a shame no one plays it. [:(] I don't know why you say that, there are a lot of players who use it.

LordBeluga -> RE: When? (11/12/2009 1:53:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: LordBeluga quote: ORIGINAL: oscar72se quote: ORIGINAL: Joseignacio http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php I couldn't agree more. This is a great module for an equally great engine. It's a shame no one plays it. [:(] I don't know why you say that, there are a lot of players who use it. Really? Hmm.. whenever I load it up the main room is empty. I know it's not a connection problem since I play V40k and VASL regularly with no troubles. It's a shame, too, 'cause I'd really like to get a game going. Perhaps there's a Vassal WiF gaming group I've yet to hear about.. ? [;)] Also, what errors are you getting, BallyJ?

micheljq -> RE: When? (11/12/2009 2:23:08 PM)
The main room is often empty, it's normal. If you want to be sure, try to find someone who can connect same time as you, and verify if you see each other in the main room.

lavisj -> RE: When? (11/12/2009 3:28:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordBeluga Really? Hmm.. whenever I load it up the main room is empty. I know it's not a connection problem since I play V40k and VASL regularly with no troubles. It's a shame, too, 'cause I'd really like to get a game going. Perhaps there's a Vassal WiF gaming group I've yet to hear about.. ? [;)] Also, what errors are you getting, BallyJ? Well, people who play vassal play it like a regular face to face game (except for those who play it in a PBEM fashion). So they first find each other (forum, email..... any means necessary) and then they setup a times and days to play. So they will only connect for those times. But I know that when we play, there often are other room playing. Actually, since I started using Vassal, I think the number of games has increased significantly. If you want to play on vassal, I suggest you first find people to play with, and then setup a game. Otherwise, connect around 6-10pm EST, this is when I seem to see the most people on the server. Jerome

winky51 -> RE: When? (11/12/2009 5:28:07 PM)
So we got those that want it to play vs a human for X reason. Mine is because I moved and all my friends are in Florida and I am itching for a game... no gamers up here in NC for WIF for some strange reason. Then those that only buy it with AI. ----- Soooo I guess I dont see the problem with putting the non-AI now and updating the AI later. People like me will certainly buy it now. People that want AI will buy it later. Matrix makes money NOW to cover costs and via word of mouth will make money later too. Its not like they put out crap products. Its a good company. WW2 Road to Victory sold (it lacked as a game) and then they completely redid it again with a free upgrade for people like me who bought it. Im sure they sold more copies after the super update. Thats the sign of a good company that recognized the game lacks and redid it and put it out there. I always recommend their games to people. But I dont know marketing so maybe its different than how I see it. BTW I got a solar powered clothes dryer Im selling for $99 and free shipping. Electric dryers cost waaay more. Anyone wanna buy it? ;) As for later programming AI being more difficult... isnt that the point of Object Oriented Programming? I come from a structured programming background which sure that would be more difficult but OOP shouldnt be. **** what do I know. BTW what is the new update for the game? When? Also who do I contact to get on the BETA. I have time now unlike before.

Cheesehead -> RE: When? (11/12/2009 6:49:18 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: oscar72se quote: ORIGINAL: Joseignacio http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php I couldn't agree more. This is a great module for an equally great engine. It's a shame no one plays it. Oh really? I''ve played around 20 different people from around the world using Vassal. I currently have 4 games going right now. One game that is towards the end of JA '44, another in JF '43, and two that are just getting started. I've been playing WiF through Vassal since 2005. I've played so many different people I've lost track of the number. Probably exceeding 20.... Cheers John

Froonp -> RE: When? (11/12/2009 8:47:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordBeluga quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: LordBeluga quote: ORIGINAL: oscar72se quote: ORIGINAL: Joseignacio http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php I couldn't agree more. This is a great module for an equally great engine. It's a shame no one plays it. [:(] I don't know why you say that, there are a lot of players who use it. Really? Hmm.. whenever I load it up the main room is empty. I know it's not a connection problem since I play V40k and VASL regularly with no troubles. It's a shame, too, 'cause I'd really like to get a game going. Perhaps there's a Vassal WiF gaming group I've yet to hear about.. ? [;)] Also, what errors are you getting, BallyJ? There are 2 reasons you see the main room empty. 1) People don't linger around here waiting for a game to happen. This is not a beer & bretzel game. People have appointments with their friends, and they only connect when it's time to play. 2) There are different versions of the gamebox, and I believe that you only see the people that have the same Gamebox as you have.

LordBeluga -> RE: When? (11/13/2009 10:27:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: LordBeluga quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: LordBeluga quote: ORIGINAL: oscar72se quote: ORIGINAL: Joseignacio http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php I couldn't agree more. This is a great module for an equally great engine. It's a shame no one plays it. [:(] I don't know why you say that, there are a lot of players who use it. Really? Hmm.. whenever I load it up the main room is empty. I know it's not a connection problem since I play V40k and VASL regularly with no troubles. It's a shame, too, 'cause I'd really like to get a game going. Perhaps there's a Vassal WiF gaming group I've yet to hear about.. ? [;)] Also, what errors are you getting, BallyJ? 1) People don't linger around here waiting for a game to happen. This is not a beer & bretzel game. People have appointments with their friends, and they only connect when it's time to play. Understandably so. I'm just used to hopping in V40k or VASL and setting up games then and there. Any way, it appears I have been logging in at weak hours; early afternoon yesterday I seen 6 servers running and I am now looking at a game with yourself and several others playing. It's good to see this module actually has an active player-base. [:D] If any of you are looking for an additional player for your next game, feel free to PM me. [sm=00000436.gif]

Sarge -> RE: When? (11/14/2009 9:56:59 PM)
lol For thousands of years military collages from every conceivable civilization armed with immeasurable accumulative knowledge have utterly failed in producing a simplistic AI temp plate *: if this happens do this!* So …………what’s the hold up ?

DCWhitworth -> RE: When? (11/14/2009 11:12:21 PM)
If the game is intended to have an AI it should have one on release. I'm sure the developers genuinely intend to produce one in the future. However once the game is released they will be spending pretty much all their time fixing bugs which is 'essential' whereas producing an AI will be a 'nice to have' feature and will always take second place. I can also bet they'll be fixing more bugs than they thought they would be.

Hokum -> RE: When? (11/15/2009 7:54:58 PM)
quote: Now... Developer: "X game will not have an AI in this current version but we will have one in a later patch. We have over the internet play, network play, PBEM. User: "oh boy network play, too bad it doesnt have AI play so I better start getting some opponents." That's quite true (I do not expect much from the AI, solitary game would probably more amusing), BUT it requires an infrastructure to help players finding partners.

Joseignacio -> RE: When? (11/16/2009 8:36:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: winky51 Soooo I guess I dont see the problem with putting the non-AI now and updating the AI later. People like me will certainly buy it now. People that want AI will buy it later. Matrix makes money NOW to cover costs and via word of mouth will make money later too. Its not like they put out crap products. Its a good company. WW2 Road to Victory sold (it lacked as a game) and then they completely redid it again with a free upgrade for people like me who bought it. Im sure they sold more copies after the super update. Thats the sign of a good company that recognized the game lacks and redid it and put it out there. I always recommend their games to people. But I dont know marketing so maybe its different than how I see it. ... Sorry to say I don't agree at all: - If you build a game without AI only some of the fans of the board game will buy it, the amount of money is despicable and would probably not serve even to cover the expenses of Marketing. - If you build a computer game, nowadays at least, it needs to have an AI, if it doesn't have, you can tell the possible clients (and very few will buy) or you can hide it and scam them. - There are plenty of scams in the video games industry and peopel are fed up, the public knows well what Sh+ts are being sold nowadays, withuot competent AI and full of bugs, if they buy they want a game that works as promised. - Because of this, the possible publicity word of mouth would be in any case, negative: scam or game without AI, just a PBEM like Cyberboard. - Matrix is a good company but not a developer and cannot garantee the future patches or developements of a game, those will depend on the developer also. - Even if Matrix and developer try to keep on improving the game, they will have to face the bugs, and a newer version improved, is usually sold, not for free, just like those versions you mentioned above, just that they may have been cheaper if the game was considered "not new" or evern more expensive if presented like "Gold Version" or a new game (a sequel).

Joseignacio -> RE: When? (11/16/2009 8:39:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge lol For thousands of years military collages from every conceivable civilization armed with immeasurable accumulative knowledge have utterly failed in producing a simplistic AI temp plate *: if this happens do this!* So …………what’s the hold up ? No, they succeeded from the first time they tried, it just happens that thos who need to do as the book says are humans, and with a different background and training, and sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Joseignacio -> RE: When? (11/16/2009 8:41:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth If the game is intended to have an AI it should have one on release. I'm sure the developers genuinely intend to produce one in the future. However once the game is released they will be spending pretty much all their time fixing bugs which is 'essential' whereas producing an AI will be a 'nice to have' feature and will always take second place. I can also bet they'll be fixing more bugs than they thought they would be. As some other posters stated before " I couldn't agree more".

alf16371 -> RE: When? (11/16/2009 11:55:31 AM)
Hi, I'm Federico from Italy and I'm waiting to... Good work![;)]

Caquineur -> RE: When? (11/16/2009 11:59:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alf16371 Hi, I'm Federico from Italy and I'm waiting to... Good work![;)] Buon Giorno Federico, and Welcome to the forum !

Sarge -> RE: When? (11/17/2009 12:08:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joseignacio quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge lol For thousands of years military collages from every conceivable civilization armed with immeasurable accumulative knowledge have utterly failed in producing a simplistic AI temp plate *: if this happens do this!* So …………what’s the hold up ? No, they succeeded from the first time they tried, it just happens that thos who need to do as the book says are humans, and with a different background and training, and sometimes it works, sometimes not. Really, What chapter is that nugget in ……………………….[8\|]

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