RE: When? (Full Version)

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Davidt -> RE: When? (11/1/2006 10:23:03 AM)

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the update[X(].

I must say the that the screenshots and tutorials,  just make me wanna play immeadiately. So even though im impatient im still impressed with the progress. So much that it doesnt even hurt that much anymore when i read abut you spending time on other projects than MWIF [;)].

In some way, i cant help but feel that software development, where earthquakes seem to be a factor [:)] is just destined to turn out right in the end [:D].


Best regards
David



Ballista -> RE: When? (11/1/2006 8:34:50 PM)

Kudos to you.

I get the feeling that neither an Act of God (Earthquake) nor Act of Real Life (Non-MWIF commitments) will prevent the successful completion of this project. Just keep your sanity, please :)



BumMcFluff -> RE: When? (11/7/2006 2:06:08 PM)

About once a year I check in to see what progress has been made, and about once a year I wonder why the hell I bothered. Is there any progress? Will this thing ever get made? Will I bother coming back next year? Or next f*cking DECADE?



Davidt -> RE: When? (11/7/2006 2:56:34 PM)

Dear Mr BumMCFluff,

May i suggest utilizing the power of your reading skills. Plenty of threads in this forum quite cleary show that progress is most definately being made.

While posts like yours most certianly are helpful [>:] my personal oppinion is that 1 a year should be adequate!

Thank you for chipping in.

Regards
David






cockney -> RE: When? (11/15/2006 3:48:23 AM)

As a long time lurker on this forum, and having read most (but not all) of the threads, I can't wait until WiF is compeleted, I tip my hat to all of those who have made positive suggestions and thank form the bottom of my heart the hard work put into this by a very dedicated programing team.

Sirs If I ever meet you in a pub, the beers will be on me.

I've been waiting for this game to happen since I first had a p.c. and I'm sure it will be worth the wait.

Cheers Andy

use your loaf and take a butchers!

goin dahn the frog to the battle for a pigs I saw me skin and asked 'ow's the dustbins?



composer99 -> RE: When? (11/15/2006 4:14:22 AM)

Amen to that! [:D]



maxdrs -> RE: When? (11/18/2006 4:09:17 PM)

Is WIF still an ongoing concern? Please say yes. Just found it on the net and looking forward to playing it again. Not too hopefull though, given the dates on this.



maxdrs -> RE: When? (11/20/2006 1:50:37 PM)

Just found out about WIF PC. Time line is a bit ify, but at least they still got a time line. Cant wait for the finished product. But I guess I'll have too.



delatbabel -> RE: When? (11/21/2006 4:16:29 PM)

Having done a fair bit of AI software design and building in my time, and reading between the lines as to where the MWiF software team are at with the AI (i.e. "we're about to start looking at it"), I would be extremely surprised to see the game go from where it is now to a releasable game with a competent AI inside 18 months.

Take a look at some of the forums on other recent game software releases and where the AI has gone with that (Medieval II Total War for an example), and you'll see that building a competent AI is an extremely complex process, and very easy to mess up despite any amount of testing.

(The AI in M2TW often has its cavalry charge at archers, only to stop a short distance away, put away their lances, draw their swords, and mill around until they all get shot, and that was a much larger team than is working on MWiF with a dedicated test crew and a company like Sega bankrolling the development team.)



Manfred -> RE: When? (11/22/2006 12:29:11 AM)

I think the AI will be awful anyway, WiF is a very complex game with so much variables, I don't think that it is really possible to make a decent AI for this kind of game, or the programmer is really THE MAN !
In fact I don't really care about the AI because I will only play WiF by e-mail, so I prefer to get the game in a few month (even with bad AI) rather than wait 2 years to get it with good AI [:D]



Neilster -> RE: When? (11/22/2006 7:35:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manfred

I think the AI will be awful anyway, WiF is a very complex game with so much variables, I don't think that it is really possible to make a decent AI for this kind of game, or the programmer is really THE MAN !
In fact I don't really care about the AI because I will only play WiF by e-mail, so I prefer to get the game in a few month (even with bad AI) rather than wait 2 years to get it with good AI [:D]



This was argued to death yonks ago. The game will come with an AI and be ready when it's ready.

Cheers, Neilster




Neilster -> RE: When? (11/22/2006 7:39:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

Having done a fair bit of AI software design and building in my time, and reading between the lines as to where the MWiF software team are at with the AI (i.e. "we're about to start looking at it"), I would be extremely surprised to see the game go from where it is now to a releasable game with a competent AI inside 18 months.

Take a look at some of the forums on other recent game software releases and where the AI has gone with that (Medieval II Total War for an example), and you'll see that building a competent AI is an extremely complex process, and very easy to mess up despite any amount of testing.

(The AI in M2TW often has its cavalry charge at archers, only to stop a short distance away, put away their lances, draw their swords, and mill around until they all get shot, and that was a much larger team than is working on MWiF with a dedicated test crew and a company like Sega bankrolling the development team.)



Lots of the ground-work for the AI has already been done and there are some very clever people involved behind the scenes.

Consider this thread....

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=979605

I'll bump the AI threads up again for the newcomers.

Cheers, Neilster




Yellowcactus -> RE: When? (11/24/2006 5:24:41 PM)

I'm no programmer. However, my expectation from Cwif does not include Ai so advanced that you could play the game solo. It would be nice if the Ai is good enough to efficiently point out invalid moves and rediculous attacks while your moving a few hundred land/air/and naval convoys around the world. I want WiF to be stable, easy to read, and true to the original table(s)-top version. If the Ai is good enough to buy only infantry for china and make a mountain line against the Japaneese, it's a win for everyone.
-Yc



Janet Reno -> RE: When? (11/26/2006 4:03:58 AM)

I too am waiting,waiting,and waiting for WiF. But I don't mind because I know when it does come out it will be a fine game, as is all Matrix games. But I do have 2 questions 1: Will it run on a x64 Server 2003 system and 2: Can I get a beta copy and if so how? Regardless you guys keep up the great work and quailty we have all come to love from Matrix.[:)]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: When? (11/26/2006 8:38:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Janet Reno

I too am waiting,waiting,and waiting for WiF. But I don't mind because I know when it does come out it will be a fine game, as is all Matrix games. But I do have 2 questions 1: Will it run on a x64 Server 2003 system and 2: Can I get a beta copy and if so how? Regardless you guys keep up the great work and quailty we have all come to love from Matrix.[:)]

I do not know what a x64 Server 2003 system is. If you could provide some more details, I should be able to answer this question.

The is a waiting list for beta testers, which is being maintained by Greyshaft.



BumMcFluff -> RE: When? (11/26/2006 10:22:03 AM)

Dear Mr Davidt, [&o]

I have better things to do than scroll through endless posts of hearty back-slapping chaps like yourself in order to get an answer to the simple question of when will this thing be ready? I have waited for what seems to be an eternity, and think I am entitled to be somewhat sceptical considering there doesn't even seem to be a downloadable demo to show what progress has been made. Heaven forbid I should want to see some proof of this supposed progress, I guess I will just have to take the word of such esteemed fellows such as yourself.

And as I (and how many thousands of others?) have been waiting since last century!!!, asking for some kind of demo is not asking too much. There used to be one, when ADG was doing the work, but perhaps Matrix are embarrassed by their own slowness?



Norden_slith -> RE: When? (11/26/2006 10:48:28 AM)

Well Mr. Bum,
somehow I think you do deserve to browse for yourself, the way you are endearing yourself.
Or, of course take our word for it. Demanding proof [:-]. Somehow this strikes me as the tone of the new "instant gratification Generation", not a selfproclaimed Grognard.

happy reading,
Norden



Mziln -> RE: When? (11/26/2006 2:17:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BumMcFluff

And as I (and how many thousands of others?) have been waiting since last century!!!, asking for some kind of demo is not asking too much. There used to be one, when ADG was doing the work, but perhaps Matrix are embarrassed by their own slowness?



The Demo, as you call it, was the ADG Beta version of the game and was bugged due to it not being complete. If you want a copy of that version you can purchase a copy from ADG for about $20 US.

So I guess you can get somewhat of a demo of WiF. But it will be buged, not have the same grafic quality, have a tutorial, all the options will not work, and not be supported.

Would you like me to go on?

All the above can be found in these forums. I will not answer any question that will make me violate the NDA.




BumMcFluff -> RE: When? (11/27/2006 8:24:20 AM)

From Norden:
quote:

Well Mr. Bum,
somehow I think you do deserve to browse for yourself, the way you are endearing yourself.
Or, of course take our word for it. Demanding proof . Somehow this strikes me as the tone of the new "instant gratification Generation", not a selfproclaimed Grognard.
Okay, perhaps I was too all-embracing with my 'hearty back-slapping chaps' remark. It was aimed at the attitude of the fellow I was replying to. And yes, he was replying to my smart-arse sarcasm. However, 'Instant gratification'?. All I want to know is why could ADG supply a demo, buggy or otherwise, and Matrix cannot? And exactly what crime have I committed in wanting to be able to see for myself the "progress" being made?

From Mziln:
quote:

The Demo, as you call it, was the ADG Beta version of the game and was bugged due to it not being complete. If you want a copy of that version you can purchase a copy from ADG for about $20 US...Would you like me to go on?
I do not want a demo from ADG, as they are no longer making the game, and thus it would serve no purpose. I simply want some tangible evidence of forward movement. And, I am sorry, but I can not accept a statement from someone stating that "we have achieved such and such" as proof. I could claim to be Wolverine with the same precision. It really proves nothing.

By the way, even a release date would be on shaky grounds, as that has been claimed before, and we all know what the results of that were.

From Mziln:
quote:

All the above can be found in these forums. I will not answer any question that will make me violate the NDA.
I don't want you to violate anything, but I don't see why I have to trudge through endless number of posts in the vain hope of finding an answer. Unless someone can point me to the exact post I need? That is one of the points of a forum after all, isn't it?

P.S. I know I am a sarcastic smart-arse, but it has been close to a decade now! Maybe more, I've truly lost track of the time.




jesperpehrson -> RE: When? (11/27/2006 9:07:20 AM)

Bum,

as your are eager to see the game to be finished I would suggest you help out with getting there. Put your name in the BETA-queue and volonteer to do some write-ups. As a matter of fact I know that for example the Brasilian army is waiting to be written about!

Be constructive.

- Jesper



Norden_slith -> RE: When? (11/27/2006 10:05:17 AM)

@BumMcFluff

I too have waited since somewhere in the late 90's. Many have, I guess. Look at the screens in many of the threads, look at the unit writeups, look at the "game interface thread" and all the map threads, there is a lot of interesting stuff. I am here on a daily basis only to watch the progress as my knowledge of the game is a bit rusty to say the least. Point is, things are happening here on a daily basis. Steve, the developer answers any kind of silly questions within hours. It is all quite impressive.

Also the "rollcall" thread gives a clue as to who and for how long many have waited.

My gratification remark was towards bursting in here and demanding answers instead of reading various threads first, not getting the game itself. [;)]







SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: When? (11/27/2006 4:56:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BumMcFluff

P.S. I know I am a sarcastic smart-arse, but it has been close to a decade now! Maybe more, I've truly lost track of the time.



Well, Duh!

I have an opinion.

For years, no game company was willing to invest in a computer port for this game. Chris M. took it upon himself to invest his time and effort on the possibility of cashing in later. I guess it didn't matter that he was as motivated as anyone involved because he would not get paid until it was done. I guess it doesn't matter to you that he still had to earn a living while he was doing it.

Now Steve H. has invested his time and effort and gone the extra mile in terms of being open about development decision and asking for community input on all decisions to try to make the game the very best it can be. I guess it doesn't matter that he is more motivated than anyone involved because he won't get paid until it is done. I guess it doesn't matter that he is apparently not doing anything else to earn a living while this is happening.

In My No So Humble Opinon,

When you are ready to pony up the tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of dollars it takes to produce a game of the quality that is being produced, THEN you can complain about how long it takes.

Until then - put a cork in that smart piece of anatomy because when it speaks, we can smell it!

Sincerely



Mziln -> RE: When? (11/27/2006 5:43:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BumMcFluff
(1) Why could ADG supply a demo, buggy or otherwise, and Matrix cannot? And exactly what crime have I committed in wanting to be able to see for myself the "progress" being made?

(2) I do not want a demo from ADG, as they are no longer making the game, and thus it would serve no purpose. I simply want some tangible evidence of forward movement. And, I am sorry, but I can not accept a statement from someone stating that "we have achieved such and such" as proof. I could claim to be Wolverine with the same precision. It really proves nothing.

By the way, even a release date would be on shaky grounds, as that has been claimed before, and we all know what the results of that were.

(3) I don't want you to violate anything, but I don't see why I have to trudge through endless number of posts in the vain hope of finding an answer. Unless someone can point me to the exact post I need? That is one of the points of a forum after all, isn't it?

P.S. I know I am a sarcastic smart-arse, but it has been close to a decade now! Maybe more, I've truly lost track of the time.



(1) CWiF took 10 years to get where it was at and it was no way near finished. CWiF did not have a demo it had an open beta. We eventualy even convenced Patrice of this.

You want a demo of MWiF to prove exactly what? MWiF is a closed beta. The beta team does post screen shots from time to time that have to be approved by Matrix (Steve aka Shannon V. OKeets). Steve also posts status updates on this thread from time to time. Baring "Acts of God" like Link to: Earthquakes.

(2) "Tangible evidence of forward movement" the maps, unit descriptions, the tutororial, and the interface are not enough?

(3) You don't want to search and you will not except as progress: the tutororial, the display of the interface, the descriptions of the optional rules, Patrice Forno's work on the maps, Greyshafts, Captains, and a host of others work on the unit descriptions. None of which were available with CWiF.

P.S. I am pretty sure your right about WiF being worked on for over 10 years. But the oldest file I have for CWiF is the pdf of the charts 10/22/01. I deleted previous versions of the game as the new ones came out. I do have the list of all the changes made to CWiF from version 0.0.30 to version 0.7.61 but no dates for the changes.

I belive Patrice was involved with the beta before version 0.0.30.

I you have questions on a particular part of the game post you question and someone will reply or post a link to help you out. But as I said before the NDA does limit beta testers responses.






macgregor -> RE: When? (11/28/2006 12:20:07 AM)

Forgive me for playing devil's advocate but I do think there is a valid argument for the release of a beta version, essentially the same as CWIF except with a mailable savefile. I mean ...charge whatever you want. It should cost Matrix nothing to do this nor should it at all hinder the progress on the finished product. Your putting the very people who love the game the most, and are thus the most anxious about it's release, in the akward position of somehow, appearing hostile or counter-productive,which I'm sure is no one's intent. I don't know why there has to be this 'us and them' attitude. That being said, I am personally resigned to the fact that Matrix has decided to opt for 'Plan Greyshaft' meaning that before anyone gets to decide the placement of the first 5-4 Pole, there will be a fully functional AI that can do it for them, regardless of how much work that takes to accomplish or how much the final product costs. At least there is visible progress here. A long time ago Steve, the only game progammer I've ever known, expressed once that the developement of an AI for WiF could be a quagmire. But then qualified it by saying ' because I'm not programming it'. Alas, he is programming it. If anyone can do it, Steve can. I'm not crazy about the fact that he has to.I'm much more dissatisfied with the direction the TOAW developement team has decided to take(if it's a direction at all). 'Lord help me to see the things I can change and to accept those that I cannot'.



BumMcFluff -> RE: When? (11/28/2006 12:23:48 AM)

From SamuraiProgrammer:
quote:

Now Steve H. has invested his time and effort and gone the extra mile in terms of being open about development decision and asking for community input on all decisions to try to make the game the very best it can be. I guess it doesn't matter that he is more motivated than anyone involved because he won't get paid until it is done. I guess it doesn't matter that he is apparently not doing anything else to earn a living while this is happening.
Apparently? Apparently? Don't you know? Don't you have facts to back up your smugness? Okay then, so what are you doing to help him? Besides nailing yourself to a cross and denouncing the less enlightened. Your majesty.

quote:

In My No So Humble Opinon,
Speaks volumes of how seriously to take your reply.

quote:

When you are ready to pony up the tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of dollars it takes to produce a game of the quality that is being produced, THEN you can complain about how long it takes.
Really? Unless I have tens of thousands of dollars, I am not allowed an opinion? I think not.

quote:

Until then - put a cork in that smart piece of anatomy because when it speaks, we can smell it!

I will accept the feedback of the others on this forum, and will possess myself with patience. But you sir, can XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: When? (11/28/2006 12:51:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BumMcFluff
Apparently? Apparently? Don't you know? Don't you have facts to back up your smugness? Okay then, so what are you doing to help him? Besides nailing yourself to a cross and denouncing the less enlightened. Your majesty.


Anyone who has bothered to read the forums knows that I have offered my help to Steve in situations where he said he was unwilling to devote the time it would take to support a feature. I am willing to put my effort behind my opinions.

But then again I am not whining that I don't have the game yesterday. I also am not whining that my pet ideas of how some things should be done have been put on the 'probably not list'.

I am whining because a sarcastic smart-arse (your words - not mine) can't even be bothered to examine the easily accessible facts before declaring that he is 'entitled' to something or another.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BumMcFluff
Really? Unless I have tens of thousands of dollars, I am not allowed an opinion? I think not.


More specifically, unless you have invested in the production, you have no right to berate the producers because you want it now. It is very easy to complain about how you are not getting what you want without any consideration to the resources that must be brought to bear to fulfill your desires. How long it takes for a project to complete is dependent (among other things) on how much money is being invested in its completion. As a dyed in the wool capitalist, I assert with confidence that unless you are an investor, you are not eligible to complain about the design of a product or its schedule.

After you are a paying customer, you can complain about the product, but not the release date. There is no contractual obligation concerning the release date, written or implied, between you and the producers of this game.

Steve has granted us the ability to make suggestions, but that does not equate to the virtual pitching of fits because you don't have what you want. If you really wanted it done 5 or 10 years ago, you could have invested the resources into making it happen. But you didn't. So don't go pissing and moaning about slow progress by those who did invest their time, effort, and money into the project.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BumMcFluff
and will possess myself with patience


Then my goals have been accomplished!

[;)]

Disclaimer:

My opinons do not necessarily represent those of Matrix Games or anyone else on this forum. I am solely responsible for them and how they are presented. My demeanor and tact (or obvious lack thereof) should not reflect upon Matrix Games or anyone else on this forum.





wworld7 -> Time to step back and take a breath (11/28/2006 1:28:05 AM)

Everyone:

It is laughable reading most of these latest "comments", but I think people should take a second and take a breath of air. Then go back and read what they wrote before they post it.

Facts as I know them:

1) MWIF is under developement (there is too much proof).
2) We all want it to be completed as soon as possible.
3) The majority of us will be pleased when it is finished.
4) Personal attacks should be avoided

Be well,

Flipper



BumMcFluff -> RE: When? (11/28/2006 1:38:29 AM)

quote:

...But then again I am not whining that I don't have the game yesterday. I also am not whining that my pet ideas of how some things should be done have been put on the 'probably not list'.
Relevance? None. What pet ideas?

quote:

I am whining because a sarcastic smart-arse (your words - not mine) can't even be bothered to examine the easily accessible facts before declaring that he is 'entitled' to something or another.
Entitled? I wanted a demo. There used to be one, now there isn't.

quote:

As a dyed in the wool capitalist, I assert with confidence that unless you are an investor, you are not eligible to complain about the design of a product or its schedule.
A: Eligible? I have freedom of opinion, as do you. B: So if you are a capitalist, does that make me a communist? Nice reach for high moral ground.

quote:

After you are a paying customer, you can complain about the product, but not the release date. There is no contractual obligation concerning the release date, written or implied, between you and the producers of this game.
Never said there was. I am a consumer, or trying to be one here. Still waiting for that opportunity.

quote:

Steve has granted us the ability to make suggestions, but that does not equate to the virtual pitching of fits because you don't have what you want.
Fits? After seeing release dates posted, then missed in the dim dark past, I think my request for a demo was reasonable. And yes, I know there haven't been any release dates issued lately as the work is still in progress and likely to be so for some time yet...

quote:

If you really wanted it done 5 or 10 years ago, you could have invested the resources into making it happen. But you didn't. So don't go pissing and moaning about slow progress by those who did invest their time, effort, and money into the project.
Get off your high horse, your majesty. I think I have a right to be frustrated and disillusioned after so many years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BumMcFluff
and will possess myself with patience

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer
Then my goals have been accomplished!
Now who's being a smart arse?

Disclaimer:

My opinons are apparently worthless here, so I truly and humbly ask your forgiveness and will flagellate myself with a length of barbed wire at the earliest possible moment. Sorry for taking up your valuable time.

PS: That was sarcasm. I thought I had best explain it for SamuraiProgrammer. He seems a little slow sometimes. [;)]

Notice how adding a little winking smiley face seems to make everything okay, despite earlier comments? Doesn't work does it?



BumMcFluff -> RE: Time to step back and take a breath (11/28/2006 1:46:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Everyone:

It is laughable reading most of these latest "comments", but I think people should take a second and take a breath of air. Then go back and read what they wrote before they post it.

Facts as I know them:

1) MWIF is under developement (there is too much proof).
2) We all want it to be completed as soon as possible.
3) The majority of us will be pleased when it is finished.
4) Personal attacks should be avoided

Be well,

Flipper


In the spirit of keeping the forums fun for everyone, I will restrain myself upon this subject. I will even allow SamuraiProgrammer one last post without a retort from me, provided it is not personally insulting or funnier than mine. (that last bit was a joke)

I now return the forum back to you, the dedicated posters and readers.



max2 -> Old WIF Player Saying Hello and Thanks (11/28/2006 10:22:41 PM)

Hello Everyone,

I started playing WIF with one of my highschool friends about 20 years ago and my love for that game has not abated. I know you've all heard it before but I am giddy with excitement over the prospect of having this wonderful game available on the PC. To satsify my wargamer cravings I have played TOAW 2 and considered buying 3 but I held off since I saw the computer version of WIF was moving along. After all, TOAW is a great game but it's not WIF. I long for the days of fighting on all fronts!

My wishlist for the game would be as follows:

1) Make the game playable on a P4 1.4ghz machine with 768 RAM running XP Pro (yea that's my rig).

2) Make the AI a worthy opponent so that playing solo is a viable option, I beg you! As an aside, a couple of years back I found some guys nearby me that played WIF and I trekked out to see them on their gaming day. I arrived to find that they decided not to play that day but didn't bother to let me know. So I get there all ready to dig in and they're relaxing drinking wine. Besides not offering me a glass of wine, they were about as friendly as a sharp stick in the eye. Save me (and others) from having to deal with rude geeks to play this game and create a beefy AI!

3) Eventually include Days of Decision somehow. I know that’s a tall order and I certainly don't expect it on the first release.

Lastly, I gladly offer my services to aid in development. I am not a programmer, only player of many years and I'm even a bit rusty at that. But I do have a keen eye for detail and troubleshooting and I am WW2 trivia buff. What I have been reading, it seems you have more than enough volunteers in the trenches at the moment but if not, draft me!

Thanks to you all for the hardwork and I can't wait till this is done,

Max



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