economically confused

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Hurz_slith -> economically confused (8/2/2005 1:31:21 PM)
Hello everybody, I really enjoy COG up to now, but I have some serios problems to understand how the economy works in the game. Maybe some of you can help me! I made some tests on the economics by looking at changes on the development advisor screen for the first turns of a game. I had no trade, had peace with all neighbours and a populations morale of ~0. 1. I found, that the sum of my provincial income (when counting together by myself) is nearly always bigger (by 3-4 units) than the national income shown (in the grey boxes on the dev. Adv. screen). What is the reason behind it? 2. For Textiles, the national income shown is much bigger than the sum of my provincial income should by. Is this a bug? 3. The actual income was always again by 20-30% lower than the sum of my prvincial income. Are there game elements to reduce this losses (roads, lower feudal levies ...)? 4. I concentrated now all my provinces on one resource (Iron). But instead of around 130 units, I only produced 30-50 units/turn (also with empty stocks). Can I only produce a maximal amount per turn? 5. Is there any way to see which province is good in which product without testing it by putting one slider after the other to max. for every resource?

ian77 -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 1:35:11 PM)
Welcome to the forum! You need to check out some of the threads about "WASTE". Also check your detailed production summary to see how much has been stolen/captured/traded/produced and how much went to waste.

siRkid -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 1:46:12 PM)
quote: 5. Is there any way to see which province is good in which product without testing it by putting one slider after the other to max. for every resource? Yes, on the bottom left of the screen where you adjust the sliders there is some text that tells you what resource the province is best at.

MarcelJV -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 3:11:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hurz Hello everybody, I really enjoy COG up to now, but I have some serios problems to understand how the economy works in the game. Maybe some of you can help me! I made some tests on the economics by looking at changes on the development advisor screen for the first turns of a game. I had no trade, had peace with all neighbours and a populations morale of ~0. 1. I found, that the sum of my provincial income (when counting together by myself) is nearly always bigger (by 3-4 units) than the national income shown (in the grey boxes on the dev. Adv. screen). What is the reason behind it? I have actually never counted up the individual provinces and totaled them. Also there will be some actual diviation based on random factors. I have noticed the counts change wierdly at times when you move the slider so I think there are random factors that are accounted for that we do not know about. quote: ORIGINAL: Hurz 2. For Textiles, the national income shown is much bigger than the sum of my provincial income should by. Is this a bug? There is this thing called waste the takes 90% of textiles over 10 and sends them to waste. Also remember is a province is occupied by enemey forces those do not add to the totals you see. quote: ORIGINAL: Hurz 3. The actual income was always again by 20-30% lower than the sum of my prvincial income. Are there game elements to reduce this losses (roads, lower feudal levies ...)? Waste is hard to combat, like you can not. quote: ORIGINAL: Hurz 4. I concentrated now all my provinces on one resource (Iron). But instead of around 130 units, I only produced 30-50 units/turn (also with empty stocks). Can I only produce a maximal amount per turn? Waste, for iron anything over 20 but under 30 is 50% waste and anything over 30 is 90% waste. No real point building more than 20 a turn except to export. This removes the ability to focus you economy on one product which is unrealistic. quote: ORIGINAL: Hurz 5. Is there any way to see which province is good in which product without testing it by putting one slider after the other to max. for every resource? This is already displayed under the sliders on the left side of the screen. Hope that helps, everyone else if I got something wrong please point it out.

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 3:19:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hurz 5. Is there any way to see which province is good in which product without testing it by putting one slider after the other to max. for every resource? I made an excel file, but have no idea how to attach it here. Sorry. You might be able to copy it from here and put it back into Excel. Money is the first column. Horses is the second column. Etc. Larger numbers show better inherent production values for that region. (I believe) [;)] Money Horses Food Iron Timber Wool Cotton Textiles Wine Spices Luxuries Adana 3 0 5 0 0 1 0 2 0 1 1 Albania 3 0 9 2 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 Aleppo 1 0 8 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Algeria 8 0 4 0 0 0 2 1 0 1 1 Andalusia 4 4 9 0 0 0 2 1 1 2 0 Anjou 24 0 8 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Aragon 3 0 6 2 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Austria 6 2 7 1 0 1 0 2 0 0 3 Aydin 2 1 9 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 Baden 12 1 4 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 Banat 3 1 10 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 Banka 7 1 7 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 Batavia 12 1 5 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 Bavaria 22 1 8 1 1 0 0 1 2 0 0 Berg 14 1 6 0 2 0 0 1 1 0 1 Berri 19 1 6 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 Bessarabia 2 1 8 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 Bohemia 5 2 12 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 Bosnia 3 0 6 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 Brandenburg 6 1 7 0 1 0 0 1 1 2 1 Breslau 5 2 5 1 0 1 0 2 0 1 1 Brittany 19 0 4 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 Brunswick 18 0 6 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 Bulgaria 2 2 6 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 Burgundy 22 0 8 0 1 0 0 1 3 0 0 Calabria 8 1 6 1 1 0 0 1 2 1 0 Carelia 4 0 4 2 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 Carniola 3 0 10 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 Carpathia 5 0 8 0 0 1 0 1 0 2 0 Catalonia 4 0 8 2 1 2 0 1 0 1 0 Champagne 19 0 8 1 2 0 0 1 3 0 0 Cherson 4 1 7 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 Constantinople 10 0 8 0 0 0 0 2 1 2 0 Corfu 1 0 4 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 Corsica 7 0 9 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 Courland 4 1 7 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 Crete 4 0 5 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Croatia 5 0 8 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 Cyprus 2 0 5 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 Cyrenaica 6 1 4 0 0 1 2 1 0 1 1 Damascus 1 0 6 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 East_Prussia 7 0 6 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 Ekatrinoslav 4 1 8 0 1 0 0 1 2 0 0 Elvas 12 2 3 0 2 1 0 1 2 1 1 England 22 0 9 1 0 2 0 2 0 0 4 Estremadura 2 0 7 1 1 0 0 1 0 2 1 Finland 12 1 4 1 1 2 0 1 0 1 0 Flanders 31 2 8 1 0 4 0 2 0 1 1 Friesland 17 0 4 1 1 2 0 1 1 0 2 Galicia 2 2 4 2 0 0 0 1 0 2 0 Galicia 5 3 8 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 2 Gascony 11 0 6 1 2 0 0 1 1 0 1 Georgia 6 0 8 0 0 1 0 1 0 2 1 Gibraltar 6 0 2 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 Gothenburg 10 1 7 0 4 1 0 1 2 2 0 Granada 4 2 7 0 0 0 2 1 1 0 0 Greece 2 0 7 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 Grodno 4 1 6 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 Grosswardein 3 1 9 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 Guyenne 14 2 8 1 2 0 0 1 1 0 0 Hanover 22 1 7 1 0 1 0 2 2 0 1 Hesse 16 1 5 1 2 1 0 1 1 0 1 Highlands 7 0 4 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 Holstein 12 0 5 1 0 1 0 2 1 1 0 Ile_de_France 30 3 6 0 0 1 0 1 2 0 2 Illyria 3 0 5 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 Imereti 3 0 5 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 0 Ingria 3 0 6 2 1 0 0 1 2 0 1 Ireland 15 1 7 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 Italia 17 2 6 0 1 0 0 1 2 0 1 Izmir 3 2 7 0 2 0 0 1 0 1 1 Jutland 7 0 8 0 2 1 0 1 0 1 1 Karaman 3 0 9 1 2 1 0 2 0 0 1 Karlsburg 5 0 4 1 0 1 0 2 0 0 1 Karlskrona 7 1 12 2 2 0 0 1 1 2 2 Kent 14 0 5 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 Kharkov 3 0 8 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 Kiev 2 3 16 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 Kleves 8 0 4 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 Kovno 1 1 6 0 0 0 0 1 2 1 0 Krakow 10 0 4 2 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 Kursk 2 0 5 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 Languedoc 11 2 6 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 Leon 4 1 7 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 Les._Wallachia 12 0 3 1 0 0 0 2 1 0 1 Liguria 12 0 5 0 0 1 0 2 0 1 0 Linz 6 0 6 1 1 1 0 2 0 0 2 Livonia 4 0 8 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 Lodomeria 6 0 5 2 0 1 0 1 0 2 0 Lombardy 22 0 9 2 0 0 0 1 0 2 0 Lorraine 20 0 3 1 2 1 0 1 1 0 1 Lower_Egypt 6 0 9 1 1 0 8 1 0 2 0 Macedonia 3 2 7 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 Magdeburg 4 2 8 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 Majorca 6 1 3 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Malmo 6 2 8 3 2 1 0 1 0 2 2 Malta 1 0 4 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 Masovia 5 4 6 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 Mecklenburg 12 0 9 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Minsk 3 2 6 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 Mogilev 2 0 8 0 1 1 0 1 2 1 0 Moldavia 3 1 10 2 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 Moravia 4 2 4 2 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 Morocco 8 0 6 0 0 1 1 1 1 3 1 Moscva 4 1 6 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 N.Ireland 9 0 5 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 Naples 20 1 12 0 0 1 0 1 1 2 0 Navarre 3 0 4 1 0 1 0 1 2 0 0 New_Castile 4 1 4 1 2 1 1 1 2 0 0 Nish 3 1 12 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 Normandy 19 0 5 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 North_Novgorod 2 1 4 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 Norway 6 0 6 0 2 0 0 1 0 2 0 Novgorod 2 0 4 1 0 0 0 1 2 1 0 Nuremburg 12 0 5 0 2 1 0 2 0 1 1 Ofen 4 0 8 0 0 0 0 2 2 1 0 Old_Castile 4 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 Oran 6 1 5 0 0 0 1 1 0 2 0 Palatinate 15 1 8 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 Papacy 20 1 9 1 0 0 0 1 2 0 2 Pest 5 3 10 1 0 1 0 1 2 1 2 Peterwardein 5 0 6 1 2 1 0 2 1 0 1 Piacenza 12 0 6 1 1 1 0 2 1 0 1 Picardy 14 0 8 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 Piedmont 18 1 4 0 0 0 0 1 2 1 0 Podolia 3 2 5 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 Poitou 14 0 9 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Pomerania 4 2 9 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Portugal 14 2 4 1 0 1 0 1 2 0 1 Posen 6 4 12 2 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 Prague 6 0 9 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 2 Pressburg 5 0 9 1 0 0 0 1 2 0 1 Provence 14 1 12 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 Rumelia 4 0 7 0 2 0 0 1 0 0 0 Sardinia 6 0 4 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Saxony 20 5 5 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 Scotland 14 0 5 1 2 1 0 2 1 0 1 Serbia 4 1 5 1 2 0 0 2 0 1 3 Sevastopol 7 1 4 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 Sicily 12 1 10 0 0 2 0 1 1 3 0 Silesia 8 2 6 3 3 1 0 1 0 0 1 Silistra 3 1 8 3 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 Sivas 2 0 7 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 Smolensk 3 0 7 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 Soissons 12 0 6 0 0 1 0 2 0 1 1 Styria 7 2 5 1 0 1 0 2 0 0 3 Sveaborg 7 0 5 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 Switzerland 25 1 5 1 0 0 0 1 0 2 1 Thorn 10 0 5 0 1 1 0 2 0 0 1 Thuringia 12 1 10 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 Transylvania 4 1 5 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 Trebizond 4 2 4 0 0 1 0 1 0 2 1 Tripoli 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1 Trondheim 6 1 4 2 3 0 0 1 0 2 0 Tula 4 1 5 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 Tunisia 12 0 8 0 0 2 0 1 1 2 0 Tuscany 15 1 5 1 0 1 0 1 3 1 1 Tver 5 1 4 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 Tyrolia 4 2 9 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 Uppland 12 1 7 1 5 1 0 1 2 1 2 Valencia 5 1 8 0 0 0 1 1 1 2 1 Venetia 18 0 13 1 0 1 0 2 2 0 3 Vilna 2 0 3 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 Vitebsk 4 1 4 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 Volhynia 4 1 4 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 Vologda 4 0 4 2 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 Wales 9 1 6 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 0 Wallachia 3 1 8 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 Warsaw 7 3 8 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 2 West_Egypt 16 1 10 0 0 0 6 1 0 2 1 West_Prussia 7 0 9 2 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 Westphalia 12 1 7 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 Wurttemburg 17 0 6 2 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 York 17 1 6 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 3 Zealand 17 1 9 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1

carnifex -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 4:53:21 PM)
when you reply, click "Click here to upload!" and upload the file - make sure you rename it from whatever.xls to whatever.txt and it has to be under 200k

Hurz_slith -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 5:08:48 PM)
Thank you very much for the replies [:)]!!! I should have searched earlier for the waste threads. Now I really understand it much more... and suddenly it makes sense, even if the rules are very hard [;)] Thanks also for the provincial income list, Mexico! This is great! Do you know how to calculate the total production? Maybe something like: (number from list)x(amount of production-slider)x(factory/farm-level)x(morale factor)? But however, it�s good to know this! On my 2. point I guess I was misunderstood. The sum of my actual provincial textile production is 16, the number shown as national income is 28, the real income is 12. (So 12 and 28 fit more or less to the waste rules with 90% waste of textiles>10 - but where do I get them from?). In all other cases the national income is shown to be lower than the calculated sum of incomes (maybe due to my feudal level?).

MarcelJV -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 5:13:35 PM)
The national total may include what you get from trade, although I have not validated that.

Hurz_slith -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 6:22:50 PM)
Maybe yes, but I didn�t had any trade

MarcelJV -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 6:29:48 PM)
Not sure then why the numbers are off. I must admit I have not focused on the actual numbers specifically. All I normally care about is do I have enough, and keeping my enemies at bay.

Alex Gilbert -> RE: economically confused (8/2/2005 7:03:30 PM)
Regarding point #2 I think the national textile is higher than the individual provinces because the national not only includes textiles produced directly, but also those made by your factories from wool and cotton--somewhere in the manual it gives the conversion factor (which is dependant on your factory level) Alex

Ralegh -> RE: economically confused (8/3/2005 3:38:46 AM)
quote: 5. Is there any way to see which province is good in which product without testing it by putting one slider after the other to max. for every resource? Go to the war room, and download the Province Guide (besides the raw data, also has the city names, and is in a more convenient order). You might also like to look at the Ralegh Briefing for the country you are playing, which will help with this sort of thing. == In general, don't bother trying to reverse engineer the economy - it is too complex, and the data available to you is a little patchy. I actually like that - it better represents the state of economics and treasury officials during the period. (I have argued for increased! variability to this stuff - at the moment it is a bit too rigidly mathematical for my liking.) Apparently the developer takes the opposite view, and now thinks it is a bit too complex for little value to the user [for example, weather affects the production of farmable goods in a province, as does enemy presence etc etc which makes the overall formulaes too hard for users to understand]. The economy will be either simplified or explained sometime real soon now (ie. dont hold your breath - actual bugs have priority)- but for the moment, struggle on knowing that the real people struggled too.

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: economically confused (8/3/2005 7:58:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hurz �Thanks also for the provincial income list, Mexico! This is great! Do you know how to calculate the total production?... No problem. [:)] I know very little, but did notice that when I adjusted the Luxuries rate for Brandenburg I was getting almost twice as much spice as luxuries, but I never understood why until I found that the ratings for this province were �2� for spice and �1� for luxuries. Perhaps a rating of �3� mean three times as much production capability as a rating of �1� or perhaps it is non-linear. Either way it does mean that Saxony with a rating of �5� for horses is a lot better place to try and produce them than a province with a �0� or �1� rating.

Hurz_slith -> RE: economically confused (8/3/2005 12:02:45 PM)
I think I understand now roughly what�s the difference between the sum of the provincial incomes (SPI) and the national income (NI) shown in the grey boxes on the development advisor screen: You get the SPIx1 for all but textiles and x2 for texitiles as starting value. From this, the feudal expenses and taxes (btw. l�etat c�est moi - who takes taxes from ME?) are subtractet, and the trade payoffs are added or subtracted. This gives now the NI. The real income is now roughly the NI minus waste (that is calculated from the NI value by the rules explained in the waste threads). So that means, the goods you sell to others are not affected by waste! Only the goods you recieve. So it might be better e.g. to sell of 10 textiles if your NI is 20, because from the second 10 you would recieve only 1! Please tell me, if you see that this is wrong! So, and now I should do as Ralegh suggested and stop playing Crown of Administrative Accounting and start again playing CoG and concentrate on troops and battles (har, har...) [8D]

ian77 -> RE: economically confused (8/3/2005 12:52:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hurz So, and now I should do as Ralegh suggested and stop playing Crown of Administrative Accounting and start again playing CoG and concentrate on troops and battles (har, har...) [8D] [:D]

EarlPembroke -> RE: economically confused (8/4/2005 4:41:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hurz From this, the feudal expenses and taxes (btw. l�etat c�est moi - who takes taxes from ME?) are subtractet, and the trade payoffs are added or subtracted. Maybe that is for local & provincial governments - not all makes it to the central government?

EarlPembroke -> RE: economically confused (8/4/2005 4:47:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ralegh == In general, don't bother trying to reverse engineer the economy - it is too complex, and the data available to you is a little patchy. I actually like that - it better represents the state of economics and treasury officials during the period. (I have argued for increased! variability to this stuff - at the moment it is a bit too rigidly mathematical for my liking.) Apparently the developer takes the opposite view, and now thinks it is a bit too complex for little value to the user [for example, weather affects the production of farmable goods in a province, as does enemy presence etc etc which makes the overall formulaes too hard for users to understand]. The economy will be either simplified or explained sometime real soon now (ie. dont hold your breath - actual bugs have priority)- but for the moment, struggle on knowing that the real people struggled too. I also like the variability. I think that is a good aspect of this game - the weather, etc. affect how much you get (and so should a random variable to represent workers getting sick, carts breaking down, a bumper crop, etc. etc.). But there should be a place you can see the ESTIMATED income for each item. If I'm the ruler of a nation, I can get someone to calculate for me what we estimate we will produce. If 90% of all textiles over 10 have some kind of "waste" it wouldn't take me as a king long (other than figuring out why it was that high & what we could do about it) to designate someone to tell me not what our gross production is estimated to be, but what our NET production is estimated to be. So that my royal self wouldn't have to think - OK, if I produce 10 there is no waste, but if we go up to 20, then 50, how much does that leave me with as estimated production? I understand they are working on fixes first and completely agree. I'm looking forward, though, to some tweaks in the future (making waste more gradual and immediate, tied to how large your nation is, etc.) that should make the economic development aspects of the game more intriguing and relevant. Still think this is a great game. [&o]

Jordan -> RE: economically confused (8/4/2005 7:20:00 AM)
Would like to see an average for each item.

ian77 -> RE: economically confused (8/4/2005 2:02:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jordan Would like to see an average for each item. [&:]

PDiFolco -> RE: economically confused (8/4/2005 6:29:26 PM)
The more I see it, the less I like "waste". It really looks like an arbitrary measure to cap the economy, it makes no sense to see 90% of your production to vanish... And given how it works, there's no incentive for players to optimize their production, as it'll end up in the "waste bin" eventually ! [X(] So why bother with that complex economic model if anyway you won't get much more if you manage it properly than if you do that quite superficially ? It kinda kills the whole idea IMHO, in this case let's put a simple system that doesn't give much headaches to players.[8\|]

Jordan -> RE: economically confused (8/4/2005 7:51:26 PM)
An average monthly number for expected production and actual production for each item. This would give me a simple, macro way (which is all I want) to guage waste, tell me whether my adjustments to the allocations worked, judge whether I should trade more, how much of an item I could reasonable trade without breaking a route, etc.

ian77 -> RE: economically confused (8/5/2005 3:02:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jordan An average monthly number for expected production and actual production for each item. This would give me a simple, macro way (which is all I want) to guage waste, tell me whether my adjustments to the allocations worked, judge whether I should trade more, how much of an item I could reasonable trade without breaking a route, etc. That makes a lot of sense.

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