Bombing Midway from French Frigate (Full Version)

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mc3744 -> Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 1:49:18 AM)

Some time ago there was the issue on whether it'd be possible to bomb a Japanese Midway from French Frigate.

I recently built up FF to airfield size (4) and I bombed Midway with (64) LB-30 and (64) B-17. I had high operational losses and poor results, but I also had insufficient air support at the base. So maybe with increased air support in FF the op losses would/will be lower.



cyberwop36 -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 2:01:28 AM)

B-17's need a level 5 AF to carry a full load and have low op losses. There is a bomb load / AF formula. Somebody here knows it



Terminus -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 2:18:11 AM)

The formula is AF size 4 + (bomb load/6500).



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 3:26:03 AM)

Sad that the game allows this many aircraft on something basically the size of an escort carrier. That picture posted in another thread showing FFS said it all. It was basically an emergency strip also used for air transfer missions.



Terminus -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 3:38:17 AM)

Yeah... I have a high tolerance for what others might call "gamey", but plunking down bombers there would cross that line in my book.



String -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 3:38:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Sad that the game allows this many aircraft on something basically the size of an escort carrier. That picture posted in another thread showing FFS said it all. It was basically an emergency strip also used for air transfer missions.



Oh god.. Ron, can you ever post anything positive? I've just taken a look at 10 of your last posts, and only 1 or perhaps 2 (depends on how you look at it) was neutral, the rest were negative.



Terminus -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 3:39:32 AM)

Uh oh... INCOMING!!!



tsimmonds -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 4:12:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Sad that the game allows this many aircraft on something basically the size of an escort carrier. That picture posted in another thread showing FFS said it all. It was basically an emergency strip also used for air transfer missions.



Oh god.. Ron, can you ever post anything positive? I've just taken a look at 10 of your last posts, and only 1 or perhaps 2 (depends on how you look at it) was neutral, the rest were negative.

Why should he go out of his way to make a feel-good post? There are plenty of guys around here to fill that role. He is absolutely right; there is no way a/c should be able to operate from this hex in any meaningful way other than to patrol and to transfer someplace else. Ron has a unique POV and we should welcome his input. If it p1sses you off, you might just look the other way (as I have done occasionally; I mean even when you are right, enough can sometimes be enough!).[;)]



bradfordkay -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 7:22:41 AM)

Unfotunately, the game system has no way to model extremely tiny airstrip locations, when compared to undesirable territory in full land hex. Within the sixty miles of mountainous territory, you can usually come up with airstrips capable of holding 150 aircraft total. But on a tiny rock like French Frigate Shoals, it is an impossiblity. I never understood why FFS has a rating of 0 (1). It most certainly be a 0 (0).



Oznoyng -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 9:03:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Sad that the game allows this many aircraft on something basically the size of an escort carrier. That picture posted in another thread showing FFS said it all. It was basically an emergency strip also used for air transfer missions.

Check your facts. The information I dedged up ( I goodled it) showed the airstrip to be 3300 x 400 feet. Show me an escort carrier that is that size... While it would be an extraordinarily packed airfield, you might actually be able to fit 50 or so B-17's there. I seriously doubt you could operate 200 from it. On the other hand, I am not sure whether it was expanded as far as it could have been.



mogami -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 9:10:06 AM)

Hi, The FFS Naval air station remained open till the 1960's.
(People keep forgetting that in war it is doing what is considered impossible that wins)

[image]local://upfiles/944/C41F257D1465445782C6D70057E209EF.jpg[/image]



Mike Scholl -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 9:20:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Unfotunately, the game system has no way to model extremely tiny airstrip locations, when compared to undesirable territory in full land hex. Within the sixty miles of mountainous territory, you can usually come up with airstrips capable of holding 150 aircraft total. But on a tiny rock like French Frigate Shoals, it is an impossiblity. I never understood why FFS has a rating of 0 (1). It most certainly be a 0 (0).


Be more correct to make it a 0 (-2). Then the largest it could ever become would be a "1"---which may
still overstate it's actual abilities.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 9:23:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The FFS Naval air station remained open till the 1960's.
(People keep forgetting that in war it is doing what is considered impossible that wins)

[image]local://upfiles/944/C41F257D1465445782C6D70057E209EF.jpg[/image]


Park two dozen bombers on it and there is no room to take off or land. And that's assuming the second dozen didn't crash into the earlier 12 trying to land in the first place.



Sharkosaurus rex -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 10:50:19 AM)

But the USA didn't need to develop the base any further than shown in the photo. But if Midway was lost in June 1942, more work would/could have been under taken to improve the runway and facilities further. Maybe not enough to sustain months of operations- but well enough to launch a week of pre-invasion attacks for a re-occupation of Midway.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 12:56:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex

But the USA didn't need to develop the base any further than shown in the photo. But if Midway was lost in June 1942, more work would/could have been under taken to improve the runway and facilities further. Maybe not enough to sustain months of operations- but well enough to launch a week of pre-invasion attacks for a re-occupation of Midway.


To expand the facilities you will have to expand the island, that is find some earth and rock somewhere and bring it there. And given the nature of atolls, that rise sharply from deep ocean, it will require a huge engineering effort.
Also I suppose anybody basing 200 heavy bombers there will also have patrol and CAP aircraft, and thousands of men to take care of them and a division or at least a RCT to protect them. Where will they stay ?

In WITP II the size of island should definetly be taken in account. And the size of AF/port should have three numbers: actual size / normal size / maximum size, so you can't build anything up to 3 points above the normal size (especially when it's zero).



Terminus -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 1:01:49 PM)

Damn... Just looking at that picture; you'd hate to be stationed there and have a problem with somnabulism. Out the door, turn right, three steps and you're in the Pacific![8|]



Bobthehatchit -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 1:40:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The FFS Naval air station remained open till the 1960's.
(People keep forgetting that in war it is doing what is considered impossible that wins)

[image]local://upfiles/944/C41F257D1465445782C6D70057E209EF.jpg[/image]


Park two dozen bombers on it and there is no room to take off or land. And that's assuming the second dozen didn't crash into the earlier 12 trying to land in the first place.


Dam i didn't realise it was that small! Only got a base force AA unit and some PBY's there in my game, although there's a RCT on the way think i'll send them else where otherwise it'll be standing room only!



Terminus -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 1:44:40 PM)

That's why they're called "shoals"...[;)]



Bobthehatchit -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 1:50:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

That's why they're called "shoals"...[;)]


If the sea gets up a bit it'll wash right over!

That could reck your whole day[:D]



Burkowski -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 3:30:40 PM)

Yah, based on Terminus' comment above re: "gaminess," for PBEMers, looks like this issue is another candidate for a house rule.... e.g. make a list of similar oceanic postage stamps and place our own restrictions... workarounds are part of the WITP currency...

Burkowski



mc3744 -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 3:32:28 PM)

Just came back on line and found the post stirred up some dust [8|]

Well, I don't know and - quite frankly - I don't care if it's gamey or not.
I'm not expert enough nor have I time enough to seriously contribute to WitP II.
The post was intended to reply to the question (posted by Harrer I seem to remember) whether - in the game system - it is or it is not possible to use heavies from FFS once built up to (4). Well, it is.
I'll leave to the experts to debate over the feasibility IRL of this. Personally I'll keep anjoying the game as it is.
Anyway bombing results have been quite poor and op losses very high. Maybe that can ameliorate (I hope it's English [:D]) those of you feeling that it's WRONG [:-]

Cheers [:)]



spence -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 10:48:23 PM)

(in reply to BobtheHatchit)

In point of fact the US Coast Guard maintained a Loran Station there and one time the LOGFLT went out with the daily bread and twidget stuff and found that the station (fortunately not the crew) had been washed away by a more than normal high tide.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 10:52:47 PM)

Your answer about whether or not it was possible in the game was absolutely correct. Which led to the discussion of just what the designers were smoking when they made this decision pertinant. You were right, but in terms of physical reality, you shouldn't have been. No "poke" at you..., just another indication that the design team seems to have been drunk when they made some of their choices.



castor troy -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 10:56:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Your answer about whether or not it was possible in the game was absolutely correct. Which led to the discussion of just what the designers were smoking when they made this decision pertinant. You were right, but in terms of physical reality, you shouldn't have been. No "poke" at you..., just another indication that the design team seems to have been drunk when they made some of their choices.



You´re absoutely right!



mc3744 -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 11:26:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Your answer about whether or not it was possible in the game was absolutely correct. Which led to the discussion of just what the designers were smoking when they made this decision pertinant. You were right, but in terms of physical reality, you shouldn't have been. No "poke" at you..., just another indication that the design team seems to have been drunk when they made some of their choices.


I concur [;)]



Big B -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/13/2005 11:50:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The FFS Naval air station remained open till the 1960's.
(People keep forgetting that in war it is doing what is considered impossible that wins)

[image]local://upfiles/944/C41F257D1465445782C6D70057E209EF.jpg[/image]

Wait a second guys, that "little" airfield is a heck of a lot bigger than you think. Look at the waves breaking on the reefe around it. I live by the ocean and I can tell you that those seeming "little" waves breaking are good sized, and those buildings are huge hangers.

I don't know if I missed it earlier in the post - but it looks to me that that airfield is about a mile long anyway. Even at 1/2 a mile (which I doubt it is) that's TWO Super Carries end to end.
You could operate bombers there.

B



Terminus -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/14/2005 12:02:17 AM)

From http://www.radiojerry.com/frigate/

The Military and French Frigate Shoals. Prior to World War II, the area had no particular strategic value. During the early part of the war, the Japanese occasionally used it to refuel seaplanes from a submarine. In one instance a seaplane raid on Pearl Harbor was refueled from this location. When they tried to do this again, after the Battle of Midway, they found that a complete Naval Air Station had been constructed by the U.S. That attack plan was cancelled. The shoal was now an important emergency stopover and navigational point for aircraft flying between Hawaii and Midway. Tern Island had been enlarged from the size of a tennis court to an airfield bearing the resemblance of an aircraft carrier flight deck, 3300 feet long and 400 feet wide. Eventually, the Coast Guard would take over the site and operate a low frequency radiobeacon and a double-pulsed Loran A station until the phase-out of Loran A. The station also served as a monitor station for the Central Pacific Loran C chain which had transmitter sites at Kure, Johnston, and Hawaii Islands. When Loran A was shut down, LORMONSTA Honolulu assumed the Loran C monitoring functions and the Coast Guard left French Frigate.



pompack -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/14/2005 12:05:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The FFS Naval air station remained open till the 1960's.
(People keep forgetting that in war it is doing what is considered impossible that wins)

[image]local://upfiles/944/C41F257D1465445782C6D70057E209EF.jpg[/image]

Wait a second guys, that "little" airfield is a heck of a lot bigger than you think. Look at the waves breaking on the reefe around it. I live by the ocean and I can tell you that those seeming "little" waves breaking are good sized, and those buildings are huge hangers.

I don't know if I missed it earlier in the post - but it looks to me that that airfield is about a mile long anyway. Even at 1/2 a mile (which I doubt it is) that's TWO Super Carries end to end.
You could operate bombers there.

B

Agree. Furthermore, look at the shoal shadows and the wave patterns. If I wanted to take the effort, I could dynamite and dredge from the upper right to fill some more and make it three times as long. If I wanted more parking areas, I just fill at the sides. I don't think this particular "base" is more that 25% of it's maximum size, if that.

Such an effort would certainly NOT be cost effective in the real world, BUT if Midway were lost that would be a different thing. I suspect that a lot more effort than this went into basing B-24s in the Aluetians. I suspect that if Attu/Kiska had never been invaded, we would be posting pictures of Aluetian rocks and gripping that there was no way to operate heavy bombers forum someplace like that. [:D]



Desertdaddy -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/14/2005 1:38:01 AM)

In the attached photo, what level of base would this represent? Level 1 would be my guess, just a landing strip not a level 3 or 4 airbase by any stretch of the imagination. With enough engineers you can build up a 0/0 dot to a nice base able to support combat ops. In the picture they just stopped building at level 1.



mc3744 -> RE: Bombing Midway from French Frigate (8/14/2005 1:52:06 AM)

Hey Terminus,

How did you find this? Radiojerry?!? [X(]
Man you are a net digger [8D]



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