disorderer cavalry (Full Version)

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Ektor -> disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 10:50:03 AM)

Question:

I was playing Turkey, during a detailled battle I had a problem:

I had 6 units of irr. cavalry, i made them charge and they were 'disordered' after (when they looks like shadow).
How can I make them ordered back?

I tried everything :
no move during several turn : nothing, their moral did not move (1.7 to 4)
tried to change the formation even with 0% chance : shaken and nothing
fortify : nada
move them near my commander : nada
move them far away of the fight, move the commander in the unit, etc etc

so how can we get back the cavalry? or are they one shot weapon?
(strange that some units cannot reorganise themself during a battle that is longer that a full day)



ian77 -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 1:17:07 PM)

Irr cav are very difficult to reorder. There are a few things you can try doing which may help;

Do not use them to charge formed enemy units
Obtain cavalry upgrades especially the irregular cavalry upgrade
Assign a leader to the unit
Let the disordered unit rest
Keep the unit out of the line of sight of the enemy

Often a Irr Cav are just a one shot weapon, one charge and they are spent. Afterall they are not disciplined trained regular cavalry who's role is to melee on the battlefield. They are there to threaten the flanks and to pursue fleeing enemies, they are not shock troops.

Ian



Ektor -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 1:53:15 PM)

well they did charge the ennemy support unit (so defendless), and from behind
they did rest one full day away from battle, near the leader, i should hope that they can reorganize :)



ian77 -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 2:09:05 PM)

All cav is difficult to reorder, and IIRC Irr is the hardest of all.

Ian



Ektor -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 2:39:08 PM)

so turkey IRR is intended to be a one shot weapon, as I did tried everything that can help to reorder it.

Damned Turkey have a pack of huge disadvantage :)



ian77 -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 3:27:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ektor

so turkey IRR is intended to be a one shot weapon, as I did tried everything that can help to reorder it.

Damned Turkey have a pack of huge disadvantage :)


True, but then Turkey was not the same as a western european army, they relied on huge numbers, and could easily replace losses. I am not sure, but if you try the "balanced" scenario you may find turkey has more regular cavalry.

Ian



Ron -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 4:27:39 PM)

From my experience I don't think you can recover/reform IRR Cav once they have charged and become disordered. Everything ian77 said to assist Cav in reforming is true except for the Leader part. AFAIK and can tell after many, many tries they have no affect whatsoever on the Cav unit reforming.



Ron

Edit: Looking further there is a Leader trait called Cavalry Reform - haven't checked out its effects yet but probably helps as advertised.



Hard Sarge -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 4:45:38 PM)

you need to get as many Upgrades for Cav as you can also

early game, can seem very different then a late game battle

and as Ian says, Cav is a timing deal, they can be the battle winner, when used right, they also can ruin your chances if you used them wrong

plus, would say, don't expect much from your Cav, Irr or Reg, until you get there morale up



ian77 -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 4:51:37 PM)

I have moved leaders into and out of disordered cav divisions and seen the chance to form column change from 20% to 40%, so I presume this is the leader helping it to reform...

Ian



ian77 -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 5:06:55 PM)

Most cav leaders seem to give +20, one french leader gives +40 - the best I can recollect seeing.

Ian



Hard Sarge -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 5:19:49 PM)

the Leaders do have different skills and bonuses

the"Cav" Leaders should be placed with Cav units :)

Eric wants to try and make Leaders more importent, but not sure when and where




gdpsnake -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 5:54:24 PM)

One last thing not mentioned for all cavalry - make sure they are in supply = within movement range of a supply wagon (the supply wagon's movement range, usually 2-3 hexes.



Barrold -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 6:15:23 PM)

I have had some luck reforming Irr Cavalry by moving them into a fort for resupply. Playing as Prussia, I had a lone IRR cavalry unit in the middle of a large fight between Russia and France. My single unit charged and was repulsed quite a few times with a rest period in between. Since I had no supply in the fight, I was only able to resupply by going to one of my forts in the region and I quickly was able to reform the unit.

BDH



ian77 -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 6:15:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gdpsnake

One last thing not mentioned for all cavalry - make sure they are in supply = within movement range of a supply wagon (the supply wagon's movement range, usually 2-3 hexes.


Does this really make a difference? I had thought that in supply just meant not being without supplies, I shall have to start moving disordered cav units next to supply units!

Ian



Ektor -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 6:29:55 PM)

it's sad to see that a pack of 6 irr cav with a good cav leader (+20 or +40 do not remember) can only do 1 charge and are totally useless after.
Specially if they have charged some defenseless supply wagon :)
At least they could have a chance to reform each turn if they do not move.

Another point :
in the rules, it's written that if I do give to a unit the order to 'pass his turn', the unit should gain some morale back. The cav did pass at least 10 turns and no morale was added, so maybe the rule is :
if not disordered, and if the unit pass his turn, it could win some morale



Hard Sarge -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 6:41:35 PM)

don't forget, you also lose morale each turn too



Ralegh -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 6:59:40 PM)

a) Irreg cav have a superior charge as well as harder to reform - they throw their all into it!

b) Yes it is sad to watch the Turkish horde of irreg cav make one charge and sit the rest of the battle out - but thats what playing Turkey (and to a lesser extent Russia) is like. Build some barracks so your next set of feudal levies aren't so dreadful. Lancers - at the other end of the cav spectrum - tend to get in 3 or so charges a day.

c) I havbe never noticed proximity to a caisson helping cav to reform - I will be watching for it!

d) Using a fort (or villiage) to get a bit of supply into a disordered unit is a nice trick - but it actually makes it harder for them to reform. Go get the supplies, and then hide outside (no line of sight to baddies) for max chance to reform. I think in your battle, the fort may have made the cav unit out of line of sight.

e) The cav reform leader ability is held by precisely one guy. Sob.

f) Even non-cav commanders help cav to reform - the formations ability is used. But I would always rest them so they aren't shaken or fatigued before trying to reform.

g) Rallying (resting during battle) won't increase a unit's morale over what it started the battle with, less an amount for the time the battle has been going - so the max morale you can rest up to goes down each day. So if they come in at 1.7 morale, that's the BEST their ever gonna be.



Ektor -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 7:16:41 PM)

thanks for all the tips :)



ericbabe -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/21/2005 8:53:04 PM)

Commanders who have a morale rating should help cavalry reform, though their effects aren't always significant unless their morale rating is fairly high.

It is part of the game design that cavalry should only get a very few number of charges per battle -- cavalry charges can be extremely powerful. I agree that it is hard to win battles with Turkey's irregular cavalry. Turkey needs to think in terms of tactics that span multiple battles, I think -- wear down their best units with wave after wave of irregular cavalry.

If you have the "Irregular Tactics" upgrade, then irregular and cossack cavalry should be able to charge and have only a 50% chance of becoming disordered; however the charge attacks of these units are weakened by this upgrade (and the "attack power" which determines whether the unit being charged is weakened as well).

If cavalry or infantry have a maximum morale rating (the morale with which they started the battle) greater than 7.0, then they have a 33% chance of being able to charge without becoming disordered.

If cavalry or infantry charge something that is routed, they have a 50% chance of being able to charge without becoming disordered.

If cavalry or infantry charge somethign that is disordered, they have a 33% chance of being able to charge without becoming disordered.

If a unit succeeds in these checks and don't become disordered then it will instead become shaken -- excepting the Irregular Tactics check, which does not result in a unit's becoming shaken.

Finally, proximity to supply caissons should have no effect on the chance to re-form.




ian77 -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/22/2005 1:09:24 AM)

Thanks for the detailed answers Eric, just one more... does a units current level of supply effect its chances of reforming?

Ian



ericbabe -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/22/2005 5:08:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ian77

Thanks for the detailed answers Eric, just one more... does a units current level of supply effect its chances of reforming?
Ian


Yes. If a unit is out of supply then the check is +20% to the difficulty.




Reg Pither -> RE: disorderer cavalry (8/22/2005 5:16:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

quote:

ORIGINAL: ian77

Thanks for the detailed answers Eric, just one more... does a units current level of supply effect its chances of reforming?
Ian


Yes. If a unit is out of supply then the check is +20% to the difficulty.




And, of course, they can't re-supply until they've reformed... d'oh! [;)]



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