Air to Air Combat trivia (Full Version)

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Greyshaft -> Air to Air Combat trivia (9/6/2005 1:02:45 AM)

I was doing some research for Matrix MWif and came across this useless fact:

"The last propeller-driven fighter that will ever be able to claim aerial victories against propeller-driven aircraft of another nation is the Vought F4U-5 "Corsair." This event, of course, took place during the 1969 war between Honduras and neighboring El Salvador, at the hands of Honduran Major Soto. "

http://www.hrw.com/science/si-science/physical/motion/aviation/postwwii.html



Ross Moorhouse -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/6/2005 3:43:02 AM)

Why is this useless? [:-] This was a very small and very quick war all started over a soccer match. Also very intresting that piston engine fighters where still doing combat this late after WWII.



Ross Moorhouse -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/6/2005 4:24:50 AM)

Some links...

They had some very nice camo schemes for the F4U-5 too.

[image]http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/obr1/aircraft_corsair_fas_2.jpg[/image]

[image]http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/obr1/aircraft_corsair_fas_1.jpg[/image]

from http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/salvador-1969.html

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_166.shtml list of Central & South American Air-to-Air Victories



bluemonday -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/6/2005 6:26:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ross Moorhouse

Why is this useless?

Because knowing that the last propeller-driven aircraft to score an aerial combat victory not only gains you nothing, but doesn't even contribute to any further understanding of the Soccer War. (Great book by the same name by Kapuściński, btw.) It's just a useless fact. Moderately interesting, though.



Ross Moorhouse -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/6/2005 7:26:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluemonday


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ross Moorhouse

Why is this useless?

Because knowing that the last propeller-driven aircraft to score an aerial combat victory not only gains you nothing, but doesn't even contribute to any further understanding of the Soccer War. (Great book by the same name by Kapuściński, btw.) It's just a useless fact. Moderately interesting, though.


Sorry but I can't understand the logic here. This is what historical research is all about. Following a trail of facts. In this case what was posted here can lead someone to dig deeper for more facts.



Greyshaft -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/6/2005 1:34:24 PM)

Hmmm... interesting path for this thread to take.

OK, its a fascinating, mind-blowing absolutely essential, World-Cup-Winning fact which I bet you didn't know!!!

Apart from that, can anyone prove that the Argentine Air Force ever flew Stukas either during or after WWII?

That's the fact I was looking for.



Ross Moorhouse -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/7/2005 1:55:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Hmmm... interesting path for this thread to take.

OK, its a fascinating, mind-blowing absolutely essential, World-Cup-Winning fact which I bet you didn't know!!!


I have known this for some years. [:)]



Sarge -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/7/2005 3:19:05 AM)

F4u-5 is not the only aircraft that seen action in the "Soccer" war. I think a couple of P51D's where in the mix [X(]




[image]local://upfiles/8678/F3AF91411988441F93A4EC9268FA8225.jpg[/image]

[image]local://upfiles/8678/386ECA80E55F40B3A68870A13ACD2931.jpg[/image]



Ross Moorhouse -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/7/2005 3:29:49 AM)

Bearcats where also used.



bluemonday -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/7/2005 8:39:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ross Moorhouse
Sorry but I can't understand the logic here. This is what historical research is all about. Following a trail of facts. In this case what was posted here can lead someone to dig deeper for more facts.

If you think that digging up irrelevant facts to encourage others to dig up facts is the point of historical scholarship, you are severely misinformed.



Ross Moorhouse -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 12:43:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluemonday


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ross Moorhouse
Sorry but I can't understand the logic here. This is what historical research is all about. Following a trail of facts. In this case what was posted here can lead someone to dig deeper for more facts.

If you think that digging up irrelevant facts to encourage others to dig up facts is the point of historical scholarship, you are severely misinformed.
quote:

scholarship


So please do INFORM me, seeing as I am so severely misinformed.

See how Greyshaft posted what he thought was an irrelvant fact then promoted myself and Sarge to post some facts that others may not have known. Then Greyshaft posts what he is really after.
quote:

Apart from that, can anyone prove that the Argentine Air Force ever flew Stukas either during or after WWII?

That's the fact I was looking for.
Seems to me that this disproves your point of view. A point of view that you have not suppoted at all.

Also i didn't use the word "scholarship". You did. [:-]




watchtower -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 12:59:53 AM)

Great piece of Triv - I love It - more please - was the game abandoned? - was the ref straffed because he gave a dodgy offside decision? I have heard about a goalie being under a ton of ariel bombardment but....



watchtower -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 1:03:52 AM)

Also ... so thats why soccer pitches have dugouts for the managers!![:D]



Ross Moorhouse -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 1:11:11 AM)

Seems that the "irrelevant facts" have encouraged someone else to be interested. [:D] I rest my case m'lord.



Greyshaft -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 1:12:25 AM)

Guys... this is a storm in a teacup. [sm=00000016.gif]

If that original fact is relevent to you then you may define it as such with my blessing. I just found it while doing other research and thought it worth a post. Just because one person finds it relevant doesn't mean that it has to be relevent for everyone.

And that's a fact [:D]



RBWhite -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 1:17:37 AM)

Greyshaft

I've been reseaching the Argentine Air force on and off since I read your post here.

The Argentine Air Force has flown a very wide array of aircraft from Europe & North America. But sofar I can't make any link to the Stuka.

I'll keep doing a little more research and see what comes up.



watchtower -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 1:34:09 AM)

This just the sort of stuff I for one feed off. There is always space for this kind of stuff here as far as I am concerned. Game related ( for some) and it's not OT or out as flamebait. Keep it comming. There is only 10 odd post a day at the mo in ther general forum anyway. And if members wanna spit at each other a mod is gonna point to vinnie & doggie anyways...........




Sarge -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 3:00:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Guys... this is a storm in a teacup. [sm=00000016.gif]

If that original fact is relevent to you then you may define it as such with my blessing. I just found it while doing other research and thought it worth a post. Just because one person finds it relevant doesn't mean that it has to be relevent for everyone.

And that's a fact [:D]



What [&:]


You put up a thread on military trivia on a wargaming forum,then start flamming members that replied with some images and other facts.

hmmm........... Bad day at work [:'(]




watchtower -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 3:28:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bluemonday


If you think that digging up irrelevant facts to encourage others to dig up facts is the point of historical scholarship, you are severely misinformed.


Sarge.. not sure where all got a bit *SNAFU* but I think this was the post that got my feathers ruffled - almost spilt me pot of Earl Grey... any post that starts with ' If you think...' and then a 'you' does not belong here... but then thats me ...anyone is free to shoot me down at Vinnie & doggies anytime[:D][:D]



RBWhite -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 4:13:41 AM)

Greyshaft

The only countries I found to have flown the Junkers Ju 87 Stuka are:

Bulgaria
Croatia
Germany
Hungary
Italy
Romainia

They were also flown during the 1936 - 1939 Spanish Civil War

The first Stukas were flown in 1935



watchtower -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 4:29:28 AM)

any idea when the last stuka of any kind was flown in anger? Would quite like to get my hand on one right now as my *Neighbour* is playing coldplay at about 129db and a JU87 would be a treat... wouldn't mind if the nice young chap was into Hawkwind or Beafheart!!![8D]



RBWhite -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 5:12:35 AM)

watchtower

I did find that post WWII, the Czechoslovkian Air Force used them as trainers.

But my thoughts seem to say the end of WWII for the last use in combat, but I think Hungary and Romainia or Bulgaria fought each other for awhile. So I'll need to check those dated out.



Greyshaft -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 5:14:22 AM)

Sarge,

I'm not flaming anyone (geez... how did I get into this discussion???) I'm just pointing out that the original fact was only of minor interest to me - enough to post it in this Forum but not enough to keep me following it up. Then an argument starts about whether it is a trivial fact or not and what is the definition of scholarship and I'm trying to hose the whole thing down by saying if the fact is important to anyone then thats OK by me - there's no point getting steamed about it one way or the other. Obviously my joke about "And that's a fact" wasn't as funny as I thought.

Thanks for the info RBWhite. I think the answer is that the Argentine Stuka is a counter for the "America in Flames" fantasy expansion for "World in Flames" and was never actually flown south of the equator. That's fine by me... one less aircraft history I have to write.



watchtower -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 5:42:08 AM)

No problems here mate - to me it wasn't you trolling[:)] I just wanna talk Stukas - bet you do too!![8D]



rhondabrwn -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 8:06:33 AM)

Well, I thought the trivia was fascinating... wouldn't have missed the other comments though. Glad that everyone kissed and made up though. [&o]



ilovestrategy -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 8:48:30 AM)

Well, I thought it was a really cool piece of trivia [:)]



SemperAugustus -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 11:15:44 AM)

Anyone know if von Rosen or any of the other Biafran pilots managed to shoot down anything in air to air combat?



RBWhite -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 2:28:43 PM)

SemperAugustus

I don't know if this what your looking for:

Kwenu.com\biafra\biafran_babies



Raverdave -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 3:07:07 PM)

I thought it was a really interesting.



RBWhite -> RE: Air to Air Combat trivia (9/8/2005 10:01:05 PM)

Greyshaft.

My pleasure

Just a few more tid bits.

In the summer of 1940 when the Stuka's got their asses handed to them in the Battle of Britain. The Stuka after that were sent to areas of negligible air operations.

They were now considered a second rate & obsolete war plane, Summer of 1940.

Most if not close to all were eventually replaced by the FW109.

Production ended in October 1944. (Strange bit of info)

5,709 were built.

It's greatest use was a tank buster on the Eastern Front the Ju 87D as demonstarted by Han Ulrich Rudel and his air crews.



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