RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (Full Version)

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saj42 -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/22/2005 6:48:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Second thrust, which will take longer to do, will be a limited invasion of Northern Burma/Eastern India. He has a lot of forces at Mandalay and preparing to resist me at Imphal. I will do an end-around with several divisions and support troops.

More thoughts...


6 Inf divs plus all the Engr Regts and Armour you can spare [sm=00000106.gif]



niceguy2005 -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/22/2005 7:52:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

I don't see why an invasion of NE Australia will draw his CVs, especially if yours are in the area. Once you will land in Australia, you will probably find a lot of Australian troops unable to leave the country and ready to fight. Probably every town of NE Australia will be hold by a division rather than a brigade.

Probably the India option is the best at this time. Keep the KB in Pacific and a reserve of 3 divisions and wait for the incoming Allied offensive. Then try to crush it Guadalcanal-like... well better than Guadalcanal-like from Japanese POW[;)]


I am still very new to this game and I am fascinated with the idea of an Australian invasion, but it also raises a lot of questions. I agree with AmiralLaurent that you are going to face serious opposition from the Ausie land units. They have no reason to retreat because they really don't have anywhere to go. Unless you plan to take all of Australia you can't hold the bases. Do the bases have enough points to justify the expenditure of resources? Can you blockade Australia and starve the troops enough to soften them up? If not, you may be better off reinforcing the pacific and going after India.

If I were the Allied player I might welcome an invasion. I could get you to commit lots of troops to Australia. Then, do my best to cut them off from resupply, maybe a campaign up the Solomons to isolate them. Of course, it sounds like a long time before your opponent will be ready for such a move.

[image]local://upfiles/17264/BD866393616444D697B6872E9FB676F7.gif[/image]



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/22/2005 8:24:39 PM)

I won't land in Australia with less than 10 divisions... except in the NW part (Darwin-Broome) in early 1942, where I landed twice successfully in PBEM.

Any Australia invasion is the place to send all Japanese armor. Terrain is often good for them and the only chance of the Japanese forces is to overwhelm a given area, surround some Aussies divisions and destroy them. Knowing moses I won't engage against him in a land campain where I start with inferior forces and supply problems.



John 3rd -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/22/2005 9:17:21 PM)

You are truly right about dealing with Moses on the ground. I have been kicked around China like a punching bag! This is a VERY good safety tip!



kaiser73 -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/22/2005 10:38:59 PM)

If he has 3 Divs in Noumea, i would go for Noumea. But i would bring:
1) All BB TFs to damage his ports
2) All CV to defend invasion fleet (do NOT waste pilots bombing airfields, he will kill tons of your pilots)
3) I would bring a serious force (All SRA divs but 4 to defend Burma) and all Brigades. so should be like 7 divs and 7 Brigades.
4) Most of zeroes groups.

I would land in the base north of Noumea (La foa). He can't defend properly both Noumea and La foa. Then i would build airfields to lvl 4 and i would damage with BB Noumea to keep him busy.

The key is to keep Noumea Base shutdown for the whole time.

I personally would never go for Townsville..you have an idea of australian forces? with 2 Divs you will *maybe* take the city but then you would have 5 aussies divs. and he won't be forced to use his CV. he doesn't need to. he has many aircrafts and divs in Australia, why should he try?

I would personally never go for Noumea with less than i mentioned earlier. or you just going to lose CV and troops.
it is still a risk (in june he can have lot of f4f and lb there and CAP not always stop everything) but at least the prize is nice (killing 3 US Divs will problably stop any Allied offensive in pacific for the next year). and if you win, you can try NZ (without 3 US divs he can't have much defending).

Moses is a veteran. He won't make mistakes. If he is waiting for you at Noumea, maybe it's wise not to go there.
Going for austrlia with less than 10 divs is just suicide IMO.



John 3rd -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/23/2005 12:29:28 AM)

All these good thoughts are providing the chance for me to exercise my strategic confusion and frustration at trying to force a major battle in 1942 with my opponent. I still have the tools but need the vision.

Desired Priorities:
1. Force a major CV battle where I have a chance to defeat his carriers.
2. Try to inflict a defeat large enough to forestall an Allied Offensive in 1942.
3. Build-Up perimeter defences to delay the offensive once it starts.

Operational choices that might cause this to occur:
1. Wait for counterattack and strike back at that point with EVERYTHING.
2. Take New Caledonia--Koumac, La Foi, and then Noumea
3. Attack into Burma/India Useful resources and HI there.
4. Attack NE Australia

While I sit in confusion, Moses prepares for Option 1. He is slowly moving towards the belief that I will not go after Noumea. I wonder if I can use that to my advantage?



ChezDaJez -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/23/2005 5:16:29 AM)

quote:

I will make a double thrust--the immediate goals will be the capture of NE Australia. Since I have Suva, Efate, Luganville, PM, and GG, this should help to REALLY force Moses into a fight. I will use the land invasion to create an atmosphere that DEMANDS action. If he doesn't, then I will take the bases and force him to liberate here while I build-up elsewhere...


If your opponent is currently using Australia as a staging area for future invasions, he may have plenty of troops to take back whatever you capture. If they are at Noumea, he can always transport them to Sidney/Brisbane ports and march up the roads. The loss of Noumea or the NE coast is not a major blow to the allies as long as NZ and Sydney are still in allied hands.

One thing you can count on is Moses will probably respond by building the hell out of suitable bases in Australia for his B-17s. If he does this, he can harass KB by assigning them to naval attack. Even if he never scores a bomb hit, he will still attrite your fighters, forcing KB to eventually withdraw for replacements not to mention the amount of fuel its going to take to keep KB in the fight. He will probably also flood the area with submarines to interdict supply shipping and might get lucky enough to put a torp in a CV. Once KB does leaves, that leaves your troops/airfields wide open to heavy bombing.

That's what I do if I were your opponent. There is no reason for Moses to commit his carriers against KB and LBA operating from New Guinea when heavy bombers will suffice. Don't forget you will also have to interdict his supply routes to Australia to prevent reinforcement and keep yours open.

If you want to hurt him and possibly draw out his carriers, send KB to the shipping lanes between between Suva and Pearl where his LBA is weakest.

Also be carfeul what you ask for, you just might get smacked by it (his carriers).

Just my .02 cents

Chez



JeffroK -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/23/2005 10:20:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

All these good thoughts are providing the chance for me to exercise my strategic confusion and frustration at trying to force a major battle in 1942 with my opponent. I still have the tools but need the vision.

Desired Priorities:
1. Force a major CV battle where I have a chance to defeat his carriers.
2. Try to inflict a defeat large enough to forestall an Allied Offensive in 1942.
3. Build-Up perimeter defences to delay the offensive once it starts.

Operational choices that might cause this to occur:
1. Wait for counterattack and strike back at that point with EVERYTHING.
2. Take New Caledonia--Koumac, La Foi, and then Noumea
3. Attack into Burma/India Useful resources and HI there.
4. Attack NE Australia

While I sit in confusion, Moses prepares for Option 1. He is slowly moving towards the belief that I will not go after Noumea. I wonder if I can use that to my advantage?



John,

Your priorities 1 & 2 can be the same thing, recce the stuffing out of evry hiding hole you think his CV's are in, if you cant find his CV's you cant trap him.
You can do proiority 3 independently, once you decide where you want to base the defensive lines.

Your Operational choice 3 & 4 can be done with no/minimal use of your main striking forces, even the Australia Option would only need their use for a short time.

Choice 1 equals your priorities, and has the same problems. Have a think about what point you can attack where he WILL react, can you get it under YOUR land air support, maybe move a few SS's into the area, even a strong Surface fleet to mop up damaged units.

Choice 2, what are you gaining at what expense, It could be bloody, expense to maintain only to find a US Navy blitz through the Central Pacific which leaves them on a limb.

Lots of questions, few answers.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/23/2005 10:29:57 AM)

My .02.

Nomena isnt worth taking. You cant hold it for long without taking severe losses to your AK fleet. If you can hit and run it then fine do it. If he has 3 divs plus support you better plan to bring 9 if you going to do an in and out, otherwise dont bother. You will have to loiter too long in the area if you bring less.

Australia is a black hole. You can play ring around the rosie with the Aussie, but to what end? You cant trap and kill them, all you can do is push them around and train them to fight you later.

Better target is India. At least there you can push the Brits right off the map. Problem with this is again, sucks up a lot of units leaving nothing covering the US side of the war.

Japs really cant do much beyond the historical defensive paremiter except hit and run kill what you can and run raids.



Feinder -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/23/2005 4:13:00 PM)

I started to type up a long dissertation about my own PBEM oppenent(s).

But I've decided against it.

I have one game where of the Hebrides Islands, Efate was successfully captured. It now has Port and AF with 99 damage. Wrecks of Zeros, Bettys, Mavis, Babs litter the airfield. And there are now has 17 LCUs that can rot there for all I care.

Suffice to say, I'd welcome an invasion of Noumea/Kumac/LaFoa or even Luganville. There is a LOT of stuff there. I'm not afraid of KB. I'm not afraid of BBs shelling the place.

Like the da man said, "Bring it on b_tch!"

[sm=00000036.gif]

-F-



John 3rd -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/23/2005 5:55:35 PM)

I agree with Feindeer. I can keep his LBA in New Caledonia knocked down for a while but not forever. Eventually, Efate and Luganville will become untenable. Question is when do I pull out those support units which are so valuable? I have my forts there at 4 and climbing. Lunga is huge and ready for anything (at this point)!

Raiding his VERY extended supply lines hold good, reasonably safe, prospects. I haven't spotted with my recon ANY convoys moving east-west or west-east for nearly a month since I grabbed Suva, Canton, and Pago-Pago.

I am horribly over-extended with these bases, but I am now withdrawing my large combat units (division-sized) and leaving brigades. They can put up a damned good fight and serve as a tripline for my Fleet to respond to. Have built up Tarawa as my main base with Kwajelein and Lunga as my supports. I have enough BF at each of these outlying bases for 100 planes and enough BF at the inner-line for 150-200 planes.



Arstavidios -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/24/2005 3:25:19 PM)

Invading Australia does not sound like a good idea. The Australian have a huge good quality army with lots of replacements which is tied to Australia. The allies need political points for the Australian units. They can get about 1 division every 3 months. If you invade Australia you allow the allies to use the equivalent of about 9 good Australian divisions to kick your *** that woud otherwise have spent their time in the pubs drinking warm beer, plus whatever American units happen to be there. They will figth at home while you'll have long supply lines. J

Blockading Noumea using your LBA and the KB sounds like a better idea. Noumea is fairly isolated and its not easy for the allies to bring in reinforcements, including air reiforcements, and supplies. The garrison is probably very strong, fortified,prepped in defense and suppied for years. But you can cut its sea communications and delay an offensive from there for several months. You may also be able to catch some shipping in the harbour. This will also disrupt his preparations. If he sends his carriers there, you will fight under the cover of your LBA which shoud have the advantage in the area.

You should use this delay to set up your defenses so that you'll be able to crush his offensive when it comes.



moses -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/24/2005 6:51:46 PM)

Of course I don't believe any of this and assume that it is just one more deception plan.

An attempt at Numea would be interesting as I have no idea what the results would be. My guys are well dug in and well supported and supplied. KB can take care of my LBA but not without risk of having a carrier taged by an occasional 500 lb bomb. Plus tangling with my LBA for several days reders KB vulnerable to a concentrated carrier counter-strike.

It would all depend on the condition of his troops after they arrived on the beach. If 6 divisions manage to reach Kumac in good shape then I will suffer a disaster. I have a number of good units in Numea and the surrender of this force would be very bad. If on the other hand, my shore guns rip into his landing ships as they did at Ankorage he could be in for a very bad week.

It seems too late for an invasion of either India or Austrailia. Both locations are defended by large ground and air forces and are well dug in. More importantly both would require continuous carrier support a long way from home and from their defensive duties. If KB shows up off Karachi, then you have to wonder what kind of damage I can do with my 5 carriers in the central or south Pacific.

So I'm guessing if he does not hit Numea he will hit Pearl Harbor. PH is no less vulnerable than Numea, equally as valuable, and perhaps I have stripped assets from there to defend Numea.

Otherwise he can stand pat and go over to the defensive but this is JohnIII we're talking about. I really can't see him doing that until he's convinced he has no choice.

How many times in your life will you reach the August high water point in a game of WITP. If he takes the safe course he'll still be muttering about what might have been 30 years from now as he putteres about the retirement home.



moses -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/25/2005 6:52:18 PM)

I have been notified that I was not supposed to be reading this thread!! I thought it was just one more strategy thread from our game like the one about the Ankorage invasion or about the effectiveness of LBA in which both me and JohnIII posted details from outr game.

In going back over the thread I found the comment telling me not to read the thread but I had not noticed that before. I'm not sure I ever even skimmed the initial posts. Often I enter a thread in the middle and do not read the whole thing from the beginning.

I feel bad but if I wanted to cheat I would have just been lurking on the thread. The fact that I posted openly shows that I just did not know that it was intended as an eyes only thread.

I would suggest that eyes only threads should be identified in the heading and perhaps a message be sent to the off limits individual making him aware oif the thread.

My apologies. I hope this doesn't result in this game being halted.



moses -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/25/2005 7:45:51 PM)

As recompence I will provide the following allied strategy report: You can consider this the efforts of your excellent intell system.

Carriers: Two carriers are operating in the south pacific. Their mission is to be prepared to attack any landing attempt made without carrier support or to engage KB should it become damaged by LBA. KB cannot exist around Numea forever as LBA slowly uses up sorties and planes. When KB leaves my carriers hit the landing. Three carriers are in vicinity PH. These will be used for one of several options depending on where the Japanese main thrust is identified. They are to:
1.) Defend PH and vicinity.
2.) Transfer to south Pacific in defence of Numea/Austrailia.
3.) Counter-invasions at the obvious locations in the central pacific and Alaskan chain.

Numea is defended by 3 full divisions plus proportional amounts of supporting artillery. Lots of engineers are there and have built forts and airfield to near maximum. The island contains about 500,000 supply points and every landing site has 4 or 5 hundred mines. My B17's have pulled back to Aukland for recovery and only the last damaged bombers remain in Numea. However there is a great deal of other bombers (SBD, A20, B26, Beuforts i think is correct) and fighter aircraft. The B17's are about three days from being able to redeploy to Numea. I would like to wait a while longer to reach optimum strength and morale. Lots of aa at Numea as well.

Significant reinforcements (division plus) are on ships in the south pacific awaiting whatever you do.

I am a bit short on undamaged heavy surface ships but I keep a portion of what I have left near Numea ready to raid any landing fleet that I deem vulnerable.

Austrailia is waiting to see where you go. A reinvasion of N Austrailia has been in planning for a long time. However while some units have started prepping for these ops nothing has moved north and will not do so until the Japanese main effort is identified.

I hope this at least partially repays your intell loss due to my error. I May grant further intell request should you feel that this is not sufficient.

Greg




John III -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/25/2005 9:03:28 PM)

WOW!

Like I said through personal email, I was taken aback by finding you in the thread but since I am LIVING in a state of strategic confusion, it doesn't hurt TOO much! No issue and as they say "GAME ON!"

Thanks for the Intel--we are a OK.



Slaughtermeyer -> RE: Noumea--To Take or Not to Take?!! (9/26/2005 4:45:37 AM)

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http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/lslips.htm



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