Late war Jap fighters (Full Version)

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matchwood -> Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 10:57:10 AM)

Hi all,

I see this issue is touched on in some other posts but I wanted to point out that I think the Frank has been penalised in manuver. The japanese were on the defensive in 45, but in terms of air superiority it was a combination of factors, not just aircraft stats. The game stats for allied fighters with high speed and manuver mean that I'm not seeing historical results when experienced IJA pilots in Ki-84a's meet allied fighters - its a turkey shoot with Japan losing.

From historical accounts, Franks flying with good pilots from decent airfields were a good match for Allied fighters but from the game you wouldn't know it.

"The Nakajima Type 4 Fighter, given the designation Ki.84 and the name Hayate (“Gale”) by the Imperial Japanese Army Air Force, was the most formidable Japanese fighter of the Second World War, possessing none of the shortcomings of previous IJAAF fighters. It was sturdy, well-armored, possessed of effective and powerful armament, and was later found to be capable of out-climbing and out-maneuvering both the P-51H Mustang and P-47N Thunderbolt, themselves the final line of development of its most formidable opponents. Known as the “Frank” to its Allied opponents, the airplane completely outperformed the F6F Hellcat and could give an F4U Corsair a run for its money.
http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/axis/cleaver/cleaver3284.htm

The FRANK later appeared in the battle for Okinawa, serving with the 101st, 102nd, and 103rd Hiko Sentais. Two new Sentais, the 111th and the 200th were activated with Hayates. The Hayates were used for long-range penetration missions, fighter sweeps, strafing, interception and dive-bombing missions with considerable success. The Ki-84 proved faster than the P-51D Mustang and the P-47D Thunderbolt at all but the highest altitudes. At medium altitudes, the FRANK was so fast that it was essentially immune from interception. The climb rate was exceptionally good, 16,400 feet being attained in 5 minutes 54 seconds, which was superior to that of any opposing Allied fighters.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-84.html

Despite these problems the Hayate was essentially a superb fighter - a captured Ki-84-1a was to outclimb and outmanoeuvre a P-47 Thunderbolt, and a P-51.
http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/Hayate.htm




BossGnome -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 11:02:38 AM)

I could say the same thing about late war navy fighters. For example the Reppu (of which only 7 models were built historically I believe), is supposed to have outperformed the corsair. Or so the americans thought when they captured and tested the 1 surviving model. However in the game the navy fighters are consistently slightly below the american fighters.



Ian R -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 12:34:53 PM)

I recall reading a comment on the fight testing which was performed where it was pointed out that the tests were done using US high octane avgas, which was superior to any piston aviation fuel available to the Japanese. IE, the tests were not indicative of real performance.

Unlike the situation pertaining to the ME 262, and presumably the kikka, which used jetfuel, something the Germans at least had plenty of (query because its kerosene based ??)



Brady -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 6:21:07 PM)


Their have been posts that have pointed out that the Higher Octane gas would of been no seriois benifit to the Tests, if you do a search you can see that Lemurs made some realy good points regarding this.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 6:28:30 PM)

Don't get too excited about "stats" and "stories" based on a few examples of aircraft under specific circumstances.
In 1944 a varient of the P-47 achieved an airspeed of 505 mph. Due to other problems with the prototype, it was
never developed for production, but I could easily say that a P-47 flew at over 500 mph so P-47's are under-rated in
the game. Some of the late war Japanese Fighters were very good designs and pretty much equal to their opposition
when the circumstances (numbers, decent feul, good pilots) were favorable. But it was too little, too late. And under
better circumstances (the Japanese have a better mid-war and aren't in such a hopeless position, they would soon be
facing improved Allied models like the BearCat. And always in greater numbers and with better pilots, groundcrews, and
supply. It's fun to talk about, but not something to get to too involved in worrying about in game terms.



Terminus -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 6:34:40 PM)

Nah, at most for modders. And there'll always be a certain amount of guesswork involved anyway.



Sharkosaurus rex -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 8:23:58 PM)

How can you say the lower octane fuels the Axis used would not have affected plane performance??? I think it seriously reduced their potential to reach their peek performances and was a major handicap to Axis planes (and pilots). All round engine performance would have been reduced by planes using less than 100 octane fuels. And for two planes that would have had close on paper stats the 87 octane fueler would have been at a disadvantage, possibly enough for the better fueled plane to win. So the late war Jap planes should suffer from their lack of proper fuels.

Also 100 octane fuel give range benefits to its planes. So during the BoB the German Me109E could have stayed over London 5-10 minutes longer. The only German plane during the BoB that used 100 octane fuel was the Me110- to boost its low performance. (And maybe a few recon planes). What if the Japs used 100 octane fuel in the Zero in their missions from Rabaul to Guadalcanal??? Maybe they would have made it with a bit more leeway- and fewer crashes on return to base.



rkr -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 8:43:48 PM)

The octane rating on aviaton gas is related to it's vaporization abilities in low temperature low pressure conditions. This means that high altitude performance will be compromised with low octane (aviaton rating) fuel. It is not the same thing as automotive octane rating.



mdiehl -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 8:55:15 PM)

quote:

From historical accounts, Franks flying with good pilots from decent airfields were a good match for Allied fighters but from the game you wouldn't know it.


The Ki-84 was approximately a match for the USN F6F, although the Ki-84 had the disadvantage of being not as rugged and having problematic engines. It was well outclassed by the late P47s, the P51D+ models, and the F4Us. So it depends on what you are intercepting. If it's bombing raids over Japan escorted by P47s or P51s the game *should* produce a string of somewhat lopsided Japanese defeats.



doktorblood -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 9:02:15 PM)

I agree that Frank is overgimped in WiTP. It had great acceleration and climb and was a good diver. It could out turn most Allied fighters as well.

Reports from Jap pilots who had this bird breaking 700 Kph, Mustang pilots who reported that they couldn't catch KI-84s and post war USAAF test flight data suggest that the 392 max speed in WiTP is much too low.

Any of you guys who fly flight sims know that KI-84 may be the most dangerous foe to tangle with. I find it kind of hard to fly, myself, since I'm not that good of a sim pilot. My ride of preference is the sturdy and fast Jug, and Ki-84 and FW Dora(because it's so fast and has big cannons) are the 2 planes I hate the most. There is no way the P-47 is more maneuverable that Ki-84.




mdiehl -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/21/2005 9:17:08 PM)

quote:

Reports from Jap pilots who had this bird breaking 700 Kph, Mustang pilots who reported that they couldn't catch KI-84s and post war USAAF test flight data suggest that the 392 max speed in WiTP is much too low.


The USAAF pilots in Mustangs who could not catch the Ki-84s were sitting on the tarmac on Iwo watching the Ki-84s pass at 18,000 feet. Under these conditions, an interceptor (starting from rest --- other than the ME163) would be hard pressed to catch up to ANY WW2 fighter. I'd take those anecdotal claims with a huge gulp of salt... enough to not put any stock in them at all.

There are no credible claims that the Ki-84 exceeded 400 mph in any flights other than test flights conducted with no armament.

If that's not enough for you just look to the B-29 losses in the SBS. Japanese intereceptors account for what... 3% of the losses? If the Ki-84 was such a hot rod it should have had no problem overtaking B-29s.

quote:

There is no way the P-47 is more maneuverable that Ki-84.


It was at the airspeeds you're talking about.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Late war Jap fighters (9/22/2005 1:14:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

Any of you guys who fly flight sims know that KI-84 may be the most dangerous foe to tangle with. I find it kind of hard to fly, myself, since I'm not that good of a sim pilot. My ride of preference is the sturdy and fast Jug, and Ki-84 and FW Dora(because it's so fast and has big cannons) are the 2 planes I hate the most. There is no way the P-47 is more maneuverable that Ki-84.


Depends on the altitude. Over 25,000 feet the P-47 will give anything a run for it's money.



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