Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (Full Version)

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Feinder -> Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/4/2005 9:42:29 PM)

From you Japanese fanboys who managed to stick out a game, into say mid-1943...

Just how important is Production/Oil for you?

Bear with me on the "stupid question" perception. I'm asking, because I've always been an advocate of a very aggressive stategic bombing campaign, especially against Oil. Demolish or Bomb anything in the SRA and Burma that you possibly can. No oil means Heavy Industry chokes. Wonderful.

At least in theory. I've never gotten a game into 1943. While I have made every effort to prosecute Oil centers to greatest degree of pain (some games EXTREMELY successfully), I'm just curious if it -REALLY- does any good.

It sounds like it should be "well duh, yes!". But I've never had a game roll into where I actually see any shortages. I don't necessarily think my esteemed opponents SHOULD be seeing shortages (again, the games aren't even 1943 yet).

Serioualy tho. Folks talk about plenty of Japanese airframes (and lack of pilots). But part of the point of the strat bombing campaign is to limit heavy industry thus slowing or halting ship production and limiting the number of airframes produced. But frankly, I can kill enemy pilots without the pain of going after Oil and Heavy Industry centers.

I'm just asking, because I'd like to know if bombing an oil field is REALLY worth it. If I send B-17s over an oil field, it's HEAVILY defended by both Flak and fighters. If I get 5 oil hits, hurray for me. But I can just as easily bomb a airfield, get far more hits onsupply depots (and burning more supply to repair the place), and even kill some pilots on the ground.

Feedback?
-F-



Nikademus -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/4/2005 10:04:45 PM)

Not a production expert but i do know that i've had to keep a steady supply of resource and oil coming into Japan in order to keep the supply and fuel stocks at good levels.

Course in the case of oil though, Japan practically only needs Palembang. I cant empty the place.....not for want of trying. It puts the produce in production of oil points.



Feinder -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/4/2005 10:19:07 PM)

I read then Nik, that strategic bombing ISN'T that rewarding...?

Even if you're exaggerating about Palembang (I realize it's huge), but let's say you need it plus a few more refineries. If you can provide your oil requirements from say Pal/Miri/Brunei, that means that be clobbering everythig else, isn't really hurting you.

That implies that I've got to do a HUGE amount of damage to oil centers, for you to even feel it (in airframe or shipbuilding production).

That leaves only the amount of fuel and supply produced from the Oil/HI.

Supply. Bah. Resources produce supplies out the wazoo. And even if we say we killed an oil point, which couldn't help produce HI, which coun't produce supply, you're talking about a couple hundred during the length of a game per oil point.

Which leaves us fuel. I don't know anything about the IJN fuel situation. I'll take it that it requires a degree of managment. But again, are you ever in the situation where you have to say, "Boy, I'd really like to invade Canton Island. But geeze, I just haven't got the gas to do it..."

Hm.

Interesting.

Yes Parker (since I know you're reading), interesting...

-F-



Feinder -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/4/2005 10:25:08 PM)

And for what it's worth,

In my Campaing '45 game vs. Oliver (I'm Japan), I can't see that it makes that big a difference. In '45 you start with everything. All ships are built. All LCUs and Sqdns are in existance. I can count the number of capitol ships on my fingers, so I don't need much fuel (for lack of a fleet). The only think I need to worry about is producing airframes (and I you tend to go thru a lot of them my pilots keep trying crashing them into enemy ships).

-F-



WiTP_Dude -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/4/2005 10:40:26 PM)

I say go for it. Destroy all of Burma, Ambonia, Sorong, Kendari, and Hanoi. A few dozen heavy bombers can wreak havok on unprotected resource locations in China or Southeast Asia. One way to slow up the Japanese early on in is to attack Asian resources with heavy bombers. The Japanese will then have to hold back some fighters to protect these locations.

Use your otherwise useless subs to put large mine fields at Palembang to hit a few tankers before they can haul oil. The reason it is difficult to keep Palembang functioning at 100% efficiency is because the Japanese don't have a huge fleet of tankers to work with. Oil production stops at a location once a certain level of oil is stored up.

I don't see massive stocks of oil and resources down the line in my games that other players do. Every drop of oil is needed to build the tools of war to put up a fight, especially once the Allies start to really roll in 1944. You need lots of aircraft, war ships, transports, infantry, artillery, and tanks. If there is heavy industry available, it should be used. I don't see the value of Japan losing the war while at the same time having 200,000 heavy industry points stored in the bank.



WiTP_Dude -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/4/2005 10:42:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Which leaves us fuel. I don't know anything about the IJN fuel situation. I'll take it that it requires a degree of managment. But again, are you ever in the situation where you have to say, "Boy, I'd really like to invade Canton Island. But geeze, I just haven't got the gas to do it..."


Fuel is not a problem for the Japanese. The biggest problem is having enough tankers to transport the fuel to where you want it while at the same time getting the oil delivered in a timely manner.



Nikademus -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/4/2005 10:51:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I read then Nik, that strategic bombing ISN'T that rewarding...?

-F-


On the contrary, it can be VERY rewarding, arguably too rewarding (Recall the famous Mogami proclamation of Butt-weasel-dum if you use DB's to attack cities)

I was just commenting that if OIL is your target, Palembang is both an Achillies heel for Japan (a single very important target on the fringe of their empire) but also a great strength as it ALONE can propably fuel all of Japan's oil needs even if you bomb the crap out of everything else OIL wise.

In my game with Kaiser, i was able to use SB in China to good effect, forcing him to abandon Yennen without a fight. (i assume due to lack of supply and value of the base) My mod made changes there that actually eliminates the temptation to SB because it is very effective.

In terms of Japan....I'll say this....during my expansion period, supply and fuel were tight....stockpiles drained dangerously, so neglecting of resource and oil centers is dangerous but remember too that historically the Allies didn't need to bomb these centers.....the subs made it superfluous.





ltfightr -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/4/2005 10:59:19 PM)

Yes, Japan has developed a limited SI capability.



esteban -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 6:39:15 AM)

Palembang will not cover all of the Japanese player's oil needs. Really, you need all the Borneo, Java and Sumatran oil centers to run your industry at anything close to full capacity. Between these centers, you get 1800 oil centers (800 on Sumatra, 800 on Borneo, 200 on Java) producing 11,800 oil per turn. Whatever you can salvage from Aboina, Sorong and Burma is icing on the cake.

However, in a PBEM game, you have to keep a close eye on the SRA. An allied player can send his carriers to raid Palembang, Soerabaja and Batavia. So you need to keep your scout planes in place, submarines watching the route north from Perth and east from Ceylon, and large base forces at Palembang, Batavia and Seorabaja.

If the Allies do get through and destroy these, or if they can advance north from Darwin or set up B-29 bases in North Oz, the war is pretty much over for the Japanese.




Yamato hugger -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 6:45:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

Fuel is not a problem for the Japanese. The biggest problem is having enough tankers to transport the fuel to where you want it while at the same time getting the oil delivered in a timely manner.


Dont need tankers to move fuel. Only need tankers to move oil.

Palembang is the single most important location economically on the map. As the Japs, I take it last (meaning after Java and Singapore), and bombard the snot out of it before I take it. That base and the ones on Borneo that are out of bomber range (those also I wait to take until Java falls) are good enough to drive Jap economy. Resources are a joke. Have way more than you need. Dont bother repairing anything in 4E bomber range. Isnt worth it, and you dont need it.



Nikademus -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 6:56:50 AM)

You might be right.....however all i can say is what i've already mentioned.....I have 3 dedicated TK convoys dedicated to Palembang alone and they cant keep up with it's production. It produces ALOT of oil points. While it's intact, OIL attacks on other bases will not seriously crimp Japan's style.




WiTP_Dude -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 7:11:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Dont need tankers to move fuel. Only need tankers to move oil.


I don't understand: how do you get fuel down to Rabaul and Kendari if not with tankers? If you refuel carriers or battleships down here during a battle you can quickly grow short of on-hand fuel.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 7:15:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Dont need tankers to move fuel. Only need tankers to move oil.


I don't understand: how do you get fuel down to Rabaul and Kendari if not with tankers? If you refuel carriers or battleships down here during a battle you can quickly grow short of on-hand fuel.


AKs can carry fuel. They cant carry oil, but they can carry fuel at a 1:2 ratio (ie a 7000 AK carries 3500 fuel). APs can carry fuel also, but thats at 1:3 (or is it 1:4?). Either way, I dont use APs, but when all my tankers are otherwise occupied, I use my AKs. I have plenty.



WiTP_Dude -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 7:21:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

AKs can carry fuel. They cant carry oil, but they can carry fuel at a 1:2 ratio (ie a 7000 AK carries 3500 fuel). APs can carry fuel also, but thats at 1:3


OK good point. This could be useful when there are a lot of spare AKs around in port but few TKs.



1275psi -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 7:23:41 AM)

I hate palembang -and all the rest[:@]

as a jap player capturing it - palembang it was a crater -nil, zip, nardo production of anything.
the other places were not much better.

cancel operations ? - whats an operation? got to grab every little morsel of fuel from every piss ant base , and get it all together in one place 1st

supplies -same deal -HI is and has been perilous all game.
spend a day every week - stopping production of this plane, starting that one for a week, juggling ship production as I can and as required

So hammering oil production does hurt -big time.

Ps -every damaged oil centre has cost a fortune in supplies to repair -and those supplies i would prefer to be building up in some bases.
remember its 20000 required to replace losses -if you ain't got em, even the process of moving a squadron back to a base to recieve new planes is a real pain.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 7:31:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

I hate palembang -and all the rest[:@]

as a jap player capturing it - palembang it was a crater -nil, zip, nardo production of anything.
the other places were not much better.


The number of enemy engineers determines if a base get blasted when you capture it. As long as you dont enter the hex, the allies cant stop the production, so the Dutchies are dutifully stacking the oil and resources for you as long as you dont enter the hex.

Take out Java before you take any of the major oil centers. You have ample oil to last 4-6 months without sending 1 drop home, so dont worry about speed of capture. Remember, the Dutch are stacking it for you.

Bombard an oil base for a minimum of 3 days before you attack it with a BB bombardment group. More is better. Use lots. Having a ton of arty in the hex also helps. The goal here is to disrupt allied engineer units. If they are disrupted, they dont blow things up.

Hope that helps.

Edit: dont be afraid to use an airplane or two either. More is better.



Nikademus -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 7:55:17 AM)

The biggest golden rule......have airgroups ready to defend the base from reprisal attacks after capture! [;)]



Yamato hugger -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 8:19:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The biggest golden rule......have airgroups ready to defend the base from reprisal attacks after capture! [;)]


Easier to just take out all the bases they could launch an attack from before you take it [;)]



ChezDaJez -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 9:08:51 AM)

quote:

Just how important is Production/Oil for you?


For me, extremely important and I am only at 1 July 1942. In my previous thread, I indicated that the SRA oil resources had been heavily damaged when captured and weren't repairing very well. On top of that, my opponent has been bombing the smaller fields in Burma and the fields near Amboina. He has put those out of commission but they are relatively small.

Below is a graphic that shows you just how dire my oil stocks are. I estimate I will be out of oil within 2 months and out of fuel about 6-9 months after that. The oil level is shown by the red line.

From a strategic standpoint, Japan can't survive without oil. It's pretty much game over within about a year of losing oil production.

Chez

[image]local://upfiles/14613/12054182138B45B98D8ADDF1594568DA.jpg[/image]



Yamato hugger -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 4:35:17 PM)

Oh no doubt. If you allow the oil centers to be destroyed upon capture, then yes, you pretty much screwed. See my post above on how to take a base to minimize this.



WiTP_Dude -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 4:52:32 PM)

The problem with the theory that Japan has enough oil with only Palembang and a few others is it fails to take into account future production needs. The Japanese seriously expanded their production from 1942 to 1944 in order to keep up with the Allies increased production. Here are some statistics from a study that some one just linked to in another thread:

* Japanese production of aircraft of all types rose from an average of 642 planes per month during the first 9 months of the war to a peak of 2,572 planes per month in September 1944.

* The Japanese were thus able to increase the numerical strength of their air forces in planes, in almost every month of the war. Numerical strength increased from 2,625 tactical planes at the outbreak of the war to 5,000 tactical planes, plus 5,400 Kamikaze planes, at the time of surrender.

* Japan began the war with 381 warships aggregating approximately 1,271,000 tons. An additional 816 combat ships totaling 1,048,000 tons were constructed during the war.

* Japan entered the war with some 6,000,000 tons of merchant shipping of over 500 tons gross weight. During the war an additional 4,100,000 tons were constructed, captured or requisitioned.

* The Japanese built up their army ground forces from a strength of approximately 1,700,000 at the outbreak of war, to a peak strength of approximately 5,000,000.

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm#dotjf



Nikademus -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 4:59:50 PM)

You might be right there. I'm only speaking from experience that is at this time limited to 11/42. While I am shipping oil from other sources, I just noted that Palembang is generating so much oil i litterally cant ship it out fast enough. Within a couple weeks it tops 100,000 oil. I'd say at this point i've imported over 300,000 oil from this one source alone. It is undamaged however. Other games I've played as Japan have not been so lucky.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 5:11:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

The problem with the theory that Japan has enough oil with only Palembang and a few others is it fails to take into account future production needs. The Japanese seriously expanded their production from 1942 to 1944 in order to keep up with the Allies increased production. Here are some statistics from a study that some one just linked to in another thread:


Allow me to break this down in game terms:

quote:


* Japanese production of aircraft of all types rose from an average of 642 planes per month during the first 9 months of the war to a peak of 2,572 planes per month in September 1944.


Dozens of R&D plants already created and going to be "repaired" and made operational during the game. Obsolete plants automatically upgraded to newer types without needing repair. Older types remain in pool (if you keep 1 airgroup eqipped with the type) for kamikaze use if you wish.

quote:


* The Japanese were thus able to increase the numerical strength of their air forces in planes, in almost every month of the war. Numerical strength increased from 2,625 tactical planes at the outbreak of the war to 5,000 tactical planes, plus 5,400 Kamikaze planes, at the time of surrender.


Time and time again people are whining because of the number of Jap planes available.

quote:


* Japan began the war with 381 warships aggregating approximately 1,271,000 tons. An additional 816 combat ships totaling 1,048,000 tons were constructed during the war.


Most of this tonnage was already under construction at the start of the war (Yamato class x 3, Junyo, ect). They started a number of CVs later that would never make it into the war, and even if they had, there would have been no trained pilots for them. In game terms, no effect on production.

quote:


* Japan entered the war with some 6,000,000 tons of merchant shipping of over 500 tons gross weight. During the war an additional 4,100,000 tons were constructed, captured or requisitioned.


Ive never had to expand my merchant shipyards to produce the AKs, et al. Again, in game terms, a non-issue.

quote:


* The Japanese built up their army ground forces from a strength of approximately 1,700,000 at the outbreak of war, to a peak strength of approximately 5,000,000.


This is manpower, not oil. Yes, some HI is used for it also, but the bulk is manpower. And again, in game terms a non-issue.

In short, Jap economy doesnt need to be expanded much beyond what it starts the game with to produce everything in the game. You have to remember, the game isnt history. You dont have near the "real" operational losses in the game they had in real world, so if you have "real" production you going to have a major glut of aircraft. As for shipbuilding, they Japs changed their building priorities all the time. At the start of the war ASW ships were number 9 on their list, but the end of the war it was up to number 2 (CVs were always number 1).



WiTP_Dude -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 5:32:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:


* Japanese production of aircraft of all types rose from an average of 642 planes per month during the first 9 months of the war to a peak of 2,572 planes per month in September 1944.


Dozens of R&D plants already created and going to be "repaired" and made operational during the game. Obsolete plants automatically upgraded to newer types without needing repair. Older types remain in pool (if you keep 1 airgroup eqipped with the type) for kamikaze use if you wish.


If the game follows close to history, you will be producing 4X the number of engine and air frames in September 1944 than in the average month of early to mid 1942. To create these additioinal engines and air frames, you need additional heavy industry. So this means a much higher monthly heavy industry usage by the middle of 1944.

quote:

quote:


* The Japanese were thus able to increase the numerical strength of their air forces in planes, in almost every month of the war. Numerical strength increased from 2,625 tactical planes at the outbreak of the war to 5,000 tactical planes, plus 5,400 Kamikaze planes, at the time of surrender.


Time and time again people are whining because of the number of Jap planes available.


The Japanese had a lot of aircraft, I don't think they should whine about this.

quote:

quote:


* Japan began the war with 381 warships aggregating approximately 1,271,000 tons. An additional 816 combat ships totaling 1,048,000 tons were constructed during the war.


Most of this tonnage was already under construction at the start of the war (Yamato class x 3, Junyo, ect). They started a number of CVs later that would never make it into the war, and even if they had, there would have been no trained pilots for them. In game terms, no effect on production.


I think you are right about that. Though if you want to actually build the Shinano or speed along for example a big batch of subs and destroyers, you might need some increased naval production. Most Japanese players will turn off the Shinano however and this saves them a good deal of naval production points.

quote:

quote:

* Japan entered the war with some 6,000,000 tons of merchant shipping of over 500 tons gross weight. During the war an additional 4,100,000 tons were constructed, captured or requisitioned.


Ive never had to expand my merchant shipyards to produce the AKs, et al. Again, in game terms, a non-issue.


How far have you gone? Hopefully the Allied subs can actually do more damage in 1943 and 1944 than they usually have in WiTP games.

quote:

quote:

* The Japanese built up their army ground forces from a strength of approximately 1,700,000 at the outbreak of war, to a peak strength of approximately 5,000,000.


This is manpower, not oil. Yes, some HI is used for it also, but the bulk is manpower. And again, in game terms a non-issue.


You also have to build armaments and vehicles to fill out all the new units and repair old ones. This takes a lot of heavy industry (6 HI points for each armament or vehicle point). Also don't discount the fact that you have 3X the mouths to feed. That takes a lot of supply and heavy industry production is a big source of supply.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 5:42:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

How far have you gone? Hopefully the Allied subs can actually do more damage in 1943 and 1944 than they usually have in WiTP games.


Against the AI I win begininng of '43 (autovicory). I am currently in Aug '42 in one of my E mail games. I think the new ASW rules comming in 1.7 might go a long way to putting some punch back into subs.

quote:


You also have to build armaments and vehicles to fill out all the new units and repair old ones. This takes a lot of heavy industry (6 HI points for each armament or vehicle point). Also don't discount the fact that you have 3X the mouths to feed. That takes a lot of supply and heavy industry production is a big source of supply.


Yes, I expand armaments a little (30 points or so). The big thing about aircraft is managing what you have. I turn off a lot of aircraft production to save points. Nates for example. I shut them off, but leave the factories (so they will upgrade). I dont build 500 Zero factories. Never had a need for them. I dont put cannon-fodder into the line. Every pilot assignment has to be approved by surpreme headquarters [:)]



tsimmonds -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 7:35:59 PM)

quote:

quote:



* Japan entered the war with some 6,000,000 tons of merchant shipping of over 500 tons gross weight. During the war an additional 4,100,000 tons were constructed, captured or requisitioned.

Ive never had to expand my merchant shipyards to produce the AKs, et al. Again, in game terms, a non-issue.


IJ starts the war with capacity to create 1000 merchant shipbuilding points (MSP) per turn. On GT1 your MSP consumption is c.520; that is without any accelerations or AK conversions. During January 1943, daily consumption passes 1000; by the end of 1943, your merchant shipbuilding program will consume over 2600 MSP per day (again, no acceleration or conversions included). Well, actually, it won't; what will happen instead is that your big TKs and APs will halt construction.

Check out this thread concerning merchant shipbuilding.



jwilkerson -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/5/2005 7:42:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

From you Japanese fanboys who managed to stick out a game, into say mid-1943...

Just how important is Production/Oil for you?

Bear with me on the "stupid question" perception. I'm asking, because I've always been an advocate of a very aggressive stategic bombing campaign, especially against Oil. Demolish or Bomb anything in the SRA and Burma that you possibly can. No oil means Heavy Industry chokes. Wonderful.

At least in theory. I've never gotten a game into 1943. While I have made every effort to prosecute Oil centers to greatest degree of pain (some games EXTREMELY successfully), I'm just curious if it -REALLY- does any good.

It sounds like it should be "well duh, yes!". But I've never had a game roll into where I actually see any shortages. I don't necessarily think my esteemed opponents SHOULD be seeing shortages (again, the games aren't even 1943 yet).

Serioualy tho. Folks talk about plenty of Japanese airframes (and lack of pilots). But part of the point of the strat bombing campaign is to limit heavy industry thus slowing or halting ship production and limiting the number of airframes produced. But frankly, I can kill enemy pilots without the pain of going after Oil and Heavy Industry centers.

I'm just asking, because I'd like to know if bombing an oil field is REALLY worth it. If I send B-17s over an oil field, it's HEAVILY defended by both Flak and fighters. If I get 5 oil hits, hurray for me. But I can just as easily bomb a airfield, get far more hits onsupply depots (and burning more supply to repair the place), and even kill some pilots on the ground.

Feedback?
-F-


I guess I shouldn't anwer this since I don't consider myself to be a JFB ... even though thus far of the 2000+ PBEM turns I've played all but 50 of them have been as Japanese ... but .. I do have 2 games that have now reached the mid-1943 stage ...

Oil and resources and HI are all critical .. and all are within bombing range from the Allies for the entire game.

I'll talk about one game in particular. This game is now late April 43 ... I hold all of SRA though we are now fighting for Timor. I have been able to maintain about 1.2 or higher ( currently 1.3 million ) oil points on the "industry" screen and about 1.1 million resource points. This has remained true for most of the game.

He who defends everything defends nothing. The "outlying" centers ( like Amboina and to the east of there ) I left undefended and those have long been pounded down to zero. I did put the first 2 Tony units at Kendari ( way back in Aug 42 ) and they are still there keeping the resources flowing.

Summatra, Java, Bornea and Malaya are the primary SRA producers. And about 3 large convoys are regularly moving these items back to Japan. And these areas have been out of range of 4EB except for the very early period while they were being captured.

Due to a number of factors, I was never able to capture Burma and this has left Bankok and Hanoi within range. Up until about Feb 43 .. I was able to defend these by basing most of my good fighters accordingly .. but in Feb 43 .. about 150 P38s and another 150 4EB have finally beat down Bankok fighter defense and in the subsequent months both Bankok and Hanoi have lost most of there HI and resources. After Unryu and Amagi completed acccelerated finish ... I started cutting back my naval building ( got it up to 1600 ) .. and this has restabilized HI reserve at 470k ... reserve started dropping after loss of Bankok and Hanoi ... had been 520k tops.

All TK are employed moving oil ... so the good news is there is still enough oil to keep them busy. I think I have lost about 2-3 TK ... and I have accelerated all TK that are more than 1 year out ( and I keep adjusting this turning the ones inside one year off acceleration.

I use AK to move fuel to CENPAC.

My opponent has done everything possible to bomb ever HI, resource or OIL point from the very start of the game ... and this has at least prevented my from building up reserves of OIL and resources any higher than mentioned above ... and it has limited overall expansion of production. Air production is running about 1800 per month ( not counting research ) ... Naval was 1600 now cut back to about 1400 ... Merchant is at 1200. I have shut down most aramants plants as the reserve there has remained 15000+ ...

If I was the allies I would bomb every thing I could reach ... as my opponent has done in this game. It is a delayed gratification activity .. but it is still very strategically sound.

One issue we wrestled with was China. Though overall China was pretty much stalemated ( I did take the northern part early on due to an early mistake on my opponents part ) .. it is critical for Japanese training and it offers strategic targets for the Allies. However, we wound up negotiating the stalemate as fixed ... and allowing Japanese training ( with some restrictions ) and prohibiting the Allies from massing strategic airpower in China. In an unfetted game - the ability to bomb HI, Resources in China and from China would be a strategic magnet of the first order - not to mention ability to shut down Japanese training. So China is probably the key to the game as far as I can see. Unfortunately with the ground system being as weak as it is, this causes problems - but - you weren't asking about China - so I'll stop talking about it.

Bombing the Oil, resources and HI within range is a good idea for the allies, based on the games I'm playing. And you won't see shortages if the Japanese player manages things well ... but there will be less than there couldn't been. In my case less ships early on ... less DDs early on ... less TK early on mostly. But I still have no supply or fuel shortage and never have had. And I have cranked up production of ships and planes and now even built some more HI in the Home Islands to partially offset losses at Bangkok and Hanoi.






tabpub -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/6/2005 8:17:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

I hate palembang -and all the rest[:@]

as a jap player capturing it - palembang it was a crater -nil, zip, nardo production of anything.
the other places were not much better.


The number of enemy engineers determines if a base get blasted when you capture it. As long as you dont enter the hex, the allies cant stop the production, so the Dutchies are dutifully stacking the oil and resources for you as long as you dont enter the hex.

Take out Java before you take any of the major oil centers. You have ample oil to last 4-6 months without sending 1 drop home, so dont worry about speed of capture. Remember, the Dutch are stacking it for you.

Bombard an oil base for a minimum of 3 days before you attack it with a BB bombardment group. More is better. Use lots. Having a ton of arty in the hex also helps. The goal here is to disrupt allied engineer units. If they are disrupted, they dont blow things up.

Hope that helps.

Edit: dont be afraid to use an airplane or two either. More is better.

As the Allied in the above description, there were so many engineers in Palembang it didn't really matter; not only were there the Dutchmen there, but English refugee base units and I had shipped every Dutch LCU with sapper squads in it that I could there.

He DID bombard me; not for 3 days, but more like 2 weeks. AF and port and bombardment from land units in hex. The secret (I like to think) was not only the concentration, but the sapper squads. As they are embedded in a unit, they are very difficult to affect with any combat other than del. or shock attacks.

As to the other locations, only Surabaya had anything like the damage that Palambang had, mainly due to the fact that the other bases were stripped of engineers and that we fought over Surabaya for months.



String -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/6/2005 9:32:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

How far have you gone? Hopefully the Allied subs can actually do more damage in 1943 and 1944 than they usually have in WiTP games.


Against the AI I win begininng of '43 (autovicory). I am currently in Aug '42 in one of my E mail games. I think the new ASW rules comming in 1.7 might go a long way to putting some punch back into subs.

quote:


You also have to build armaments and vehicles to fill out all the new units and repair old ones. This takes a lot of heavy industry (6 HI points for each armament or vehicle point). Also don't discount the fact that you have 3X the mouths to feed. That takes a lot of supply and heavy industry production is a big source of supply.


Yes, I expand armaments a little (30 points or so). The big thing about aircraft is managing what you have. I turn off a lot of aircraft production to save points. Nates for example. I shut them off, but leave the factories (so they will upgrade). I dont build 500 Zero factories. Never had a need for them. I dont put cannon-fodder into the line. Every pilot assignment has to be approved by surpreme headquarters [:)]


You will be needing a LOT of armament points stored for the big reinforcement day in the middle of 1943. You get 5-6 divisions + 2 brigades + 5 smaller 99 AP units in one DAY. A week or two later a smaller batch arrives. This IS going to put a strain on your armaments, and I personally wouldn't like those precious forces to arrive at 30% strength, or only the chinese and Kwantung divisions to arrive at full strentgh and the unrestricted units to come at 30%.

Same goes with A6M5 Zekes. You WILL need a lot of production to replace all those old zeroes quickly, and there will be a lot of new units coming in a surprisingly short amount of time. You'd want them all filled out within 1943 when decent pilots with 60~ exp are still available for IJNAF.

One thing to consider is that, if you keep your losses down, you might really not need all of those merchant ships, so turning off some naval yards which are a BIG HI hog can be useful. You have to store a lot of HI before late 43 or 44 when the allies will start to interdict your oil supplies. With 14k+ HI you won't be gathering much oil reserves, most of your onmap production (unless you invade russia and similar places) will be eaten up by your HI.

With player defined upgrades on, try to concentrate on single engined fighters. While the Dinah fighter version is decent, has good range and excellent speed, it does take two engines, which means a lot of HI. Same goes for japanese level bombers. Try to keep their losses and production down.

I am already running very close to my HI limit, I've turned off some of my merchant yards, and I've actually expanded my HI. I'm still not satisfied with my AC production though. Current production is OK but the projected losses increases for late 43 and early 44 are is not.

I've been bringing 90% of my supplies from China, Kwantung and SRA. I can't remember when I last sent a major supply convoy from Home islands... such is the price of expansion.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing. (10/6/2005 3:47:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub

He DID bombard me; not for 3 days, but more like 2 weeks. AF and port and bombardment from land units in hex. The secret (I like to think) was not only the concentration, but the sapper squads. As they are embedded in a unit, they are very difficult to affect with any combat other than del. or shock attacks.


Well I dont know the situation of course, but as I said earlier, it is the most important hex the Japs have and if he didnt take care to prevent you from building it up (the Japs can indeed make it difficult to remove troops from Malaya if they want) there isnt much I can say. I can say you wouldnt do it against me :)

Not in significant numbers anyway.



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