Restrictions on PBEM battles? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns



Message

Adamo -> Restrictions on PBEM battles? (10/6/2005 1:29:21 AM)

Do any of you guys use any 'troop selection' limits when playing PBEM battles, other than limiting the amount of artillery that can be purchased? I play with a buddy who likes to be Germany and he always selects basically nothing but Nebelwerfers and Tiger tanks. Meanwhile, I'm selecting a pretty balanced force of Soviet conscripts, light tanks, recon units, engineers, etc. I'm finding that after he bombards me relentlessly with his Nebelwerfers he then cleans up with his Tigers. I've tried to explain to him to try and select a somewhat historically accurate and balanced force but it's just not sinking in. Just wondering if you guys have any general rules that you lay down before your PBEM battles?



Alby -> RE: Restrictions on PBEM battles? (10/6/2005 2:04:53 AM)

I hate games where the other guys just uses massed artillery..

I tend to shy away from playing them...
are they onboard Nebels? I would just use counter battery fire and put them out of action..[:D]



PimpYourAFV -> RE: Caveman opponent (10/6/2005 4:07:43 AM)


Adamo,

Einstein said he had no patience for people who try to drill through the thinnest part of the board. Perhaps you should adapt his creed.

Did your engineers ambush the tigers? How about mines? Sounds like you need more heavy tanks and AT guns are good too, even AA's hidden for ambush can be nasty. Did you turn off arty (10%) like most people do so nobody will buy it? Its a gay thing to do but I suppose they do it to stop the arty exploit. I think 6 arty guns and 6 mortars should be a good house limit, coupled with arty turned up to a realist 140 soft/hard. That's the way I play.

Did your caveman buddy also buy tons of snipers to spread out as expendable recon? That's another exploit which should be limited. I think 3 snipers, mortorbike gangs or scout teams max is best so they won't be expendable.



Major Destruction -> RE: Caveman opponent (10/6/2005 4:50:38 AM)

This is the problem that was faced by the British in the desert in 1942. German tanks with superior guns and anti tank guns that could pick off the British tank formations at long range, plus artillery and mines.

The British learned to fight at night.

Try it. His tigers won't like it!

edit:

and one more thing. The British used large amounts of artillery. Who says it ain't fair?
For the battle for Longstop hill they had 3 regiments of field guns, 2 regiments of medium guns and one battery of heavy guns. That's 184 guns in all and you can bet that every gun was offered to any battalion that was attacking.

And that was on the weak side of the Desert. Monty used heavier artillery preparations than that.



Swamprat -> RE: Caveman opponent (10/6/2005 10:38:57 PM)

This is one of those problems that can turn out not to be a problem. One of my regular opponents is addicted to heavy tanks and lots of aircraft (we don't play any restrictions). In any game we play I know he will have KV's or tigers and at least six aircraft, sometimes eight. It hasn't actually won him a game yet.

Strategy will always win.

It's turned to my advantage because I can read his tactics and intentions quite easily now. One of my biggest worries when playing a new opponent is not knowing what he's going to do.

I use my regular opponent's love of aircraft and heavies against him (you reading this Fred?[:D]). When I send my first troops forward I know he will launch the whole luftwaffe at them. I keep my tanks back and my AA guns ready. I know the tanks he will then send forward will be heavies. Having spent so much on arty, aircraft and heavy tanks, I know he won't have many troops, so after a few losses his tanks will lose infantry support. When he then throws his halftracks in to machine gun my troops I know he's got no reserves. Then I send my tanks and reserves in, at the right place, knowing he lacks the flexibility to react.

Understanding your opponent puts you halfway to victory. A predictable opponent is a dream. Doesn't matter if he has aircraft, tigers, paras and infitrators: All of these things only work once - when first encountered - after that they are a drain on his purchase points. Infiltrators are an irritation, not a battle winner. Aircraft or artillery can kill but they can't take or hold ground. Heavy tanks are few in number and can't be everywhere at once; and when knocked out are frequently worth more than the victory hexes (and you don't have to go get them, they come to you[;)])

One day Fred will understand this and he will then pick a balanced force, heavy on troops, and use them in an integrated way. Then he WILL surprise me and maybe beat me if it catches me out. As they say, it ain't what you got, it really is how you use it. (DISCLAIMER-This does not apply to 8.4 minor nations, where a handkerchief to cry into is more appropriate[:D])



Svennemir -> RE: Caveman opponent (10/7/2005 6:17:13 PM)

quote:

Strategy will always win.


On an arbitrarily open map, I would love to see a strategy which would work against multiple Elefants or similar vehicles. Several of my earlier opponents liked these "fine" vehicles, and with forests and hills for cover my only complaint would be how ugly they are. But on an almost completely open map with great visibility, it's completely impossible to get close enough, especially if Sherman/76 or T-34/85 are not yet available. One solution would be SU-152 or SU-85 which are available earlier, but these vehicles are still inferior, especially in accuracy.



Swamprat -> RE: Caveman opponent (10/7/2005 10:25:09 PM)

Well, you have me there, as I don't have much experience with 'steppe' type terrain, nor with desert. I'll have to try one against the computer and experiment.

But commanders in WWII faced this problem for real - the Ukraine had huge open tracts, and battles were fought on the steppes. Commanders had to find solutions - they couldn't ask HQ to ban artillery or limit troop types among the enemy.

Couple of things though - On big open terrain, while there are less open spaces for you to hide, the same goes for the enemy. You'll soon spot elephants sitting there calmly taking pot shots; and if they get cocky and stay there, then fast artillery like mortars can suppress and even disable with reliable accuracy.

I agree with not using tanks. But the whole idea of combined arms is not to fight fire with fire. Avoid using tanks against tanks, just like the Germans believed in Blitzkrieg theory. Combined arms is Rock-Scissors-Paper. Tanks beat infantry - Anti-tank beats tank - Infantry beats Anti-tank. It's a cycle.

If you don't have an Elephant in your own arsenal, there's not much point sending an inferior tank against another Elephant. And even if you did have an Elephant you wouldn't use it, because it would then be fifty-fifty. You don't want fifty-fifty odds if you can help it. You want more.

So use something else. Smoke conceals. Mortars suppress. Anti-tank guns can kill with more chance of being hidden. Less than skillful crews? Have lots of them. Use Pak-Front tactics. Concentrate fire of several weapons on one or two tanks. One or two shots from each gun. Survive to fire again next move.

Meeting engagement? Own tanks outgunned? Do what Rommel did in the desert; what William the Conqueror did at Hastings: Send something forward; Retreat before enemy, have nasty things waiting for them when they come to sweep up. Once suppressed pounce, pounce and pounce again (you did keep a reserve didn't you?). Big stuff costs loads. You can afford to have more stuff. You've got room for strategy. Lost a lot of conscripts, 57mm's and BT-7's in the fight? Fairly cheap stuff. Knock out four or five of his heavies in one battle and that's about 1000pts worth to you. Very nasty having your eggs all in one basket.

Big nasty weapons of all descriptions are scary and hard to beat at first. But they can be beaten. And opponents who rely on their equipment to win their battles for them will learn a lot less about the art of war than you will.

Sorry if I sound way too optimistic. I'm not trying to sound all superior (and I'm not!), but I really do believe in, and have faith in, the ability of SPWAW to recreate the dilemmas of the past. And the solutions. I believe it can be done.

So I'm going to have a go now at putting my beliefs into practice. I'll give the computer every beardy (our version of gamey in the UK) weapon, and I'll play it on a completely open field with a balanced army.

If it turns out I was full of cr@p, I'll come back and say so.



Swamprat -> RE: Caveman opponent (10/8/2005 10:18:15 PM)

Ok I've just finished a test game against the AI, and my balanced army beat the top equipment army.

I played Soviets. AI had Germany. July 1943.

Played on a completely open field, no terrain whatsoever. Visibility was set to 96, which is almost the full width of the map. 25 turns long. 5000pts.

Picked the most gamey army I could think of on the spur of the moment:-
14 Ferdinands (+10 xp)
8 Nebelwerfers (42's)
2 Ammo dumps (1 per 4 Nebs)
A Full Mechanised SS Company inc. SPAA's.(+10XP)
Forward Ob
4 Early Tigers
2 88mm Flak AT guns

For the Russians I picked the opposite:-
1 Company Conscripts
3 Companies Guards Infantry
3 120 mortars
8-9 81 mortars
No ammo resupply
Forward Ob (no preselected barrage)
1 Company Lorried Infantry
5 Stuart tanks
10 T70's
10 T34 76's (Guards)
Platoon 12.7HMG's
8 57mm AT guns
4 76mm AT guns
3 Plt's of scouts

Might have been others - much more complex than the German force. Heaviest arty piece was the 120 mortar. Heaviest AT gun was the 76mm.

Meeting engagement. Outcome of the battle:-
Soviet Union... 12960 points
Germany........ 2801 points
Minor victory to the Soviet Union.

Soviets lost 333 men and 23 AFV's. Germans lost 314 men and 13 AFV's. Actually all that remained of the Germans at the end were the nebelwerfers and ammo dumps and one crew, rest were destroyed or abandoned.

An Account of the Battle for those who want to know:-

Soviets started first. Victory hexes were in standard positions for Meeting Engagement. Both sides in possesion of three V-hexes.
Soviet battle formation consisted of three fronts; North, Middle and South. North and Middle Fronts had a Guards company each in Two Up formation (Two platoons forward, one behind in triangle) with a skirmish screen of scouts and conscripts. Behind them were a platoon of AT's and 50mm mortars.
Southern front was set back, leaving a gap. All tanks and trucks were right at the back, keeping as quiet as possible. There was no opening bombardment.
All troops and guns set not to fire. Everything was unspotted except the lorries of the mounted infantry. Hastily the troops disembarked and ran forward a few hexes.
German tanks in full view but out of range of everything. 120 mortars set to bombard the ammo dump that could be seen in hope of suppressing nebelwerfers. North and Middle skirmish lines and infantry sent walking forward.
German AI charged forward, as it does. In spite of being elite troops, did not spot mine, except trucks. Nebelwerfers bombarded them.
Germans reached V-hexes well before Soviet troops. My AT guns began long range fire (1-2 shots each), four guns aiming at same target. Accuracy was abysmal. Nothing made contact. 81mm mortars failed to catch the speeding Ferdinands or Half-tracks with troops.
Ferdinands almost ran right into conscripts, still not seeing them. AT guns and 12.7HMG's kept up their fire, suppressing but not destroying anything. 76mm Infantry guns joined in. Eventually, as range closed to 15 hexes, a half track was destroyed. This was the pattern for the battle. Infantry mixing with the enemy tanks, support weapons firing to suppress. No smoke dropped yet. Tanks and reserve infantry remaining unseen as they never fired a shot. 80% of the German tanks destroyed were after they had been forced to abandon. Outright kills were rare. Anything that moved on the Soviet side however received an instant 88 shell in their lap.
When German Infantry dismounted more soviets were spotted. Conscript squads were flattened. HMG's pinned the SS troops, keeping them back from the tanks. AT shells pinged continuously off the German armour, which was slowing down. They were still deadly against my vehicles, but still not seeing most troops. Rifles and everything fired at the Ferdinands, keeping the pressure on. All middle V-hexes taken by Germans. Southern Germans turned north to Russian V-hexes (which remained in Soviet hands the whole game). 57mm AT guns and HMG's on southern front opened up now for first time, hitting the tank flanks. 3 Tanks pinned and eventually destroyed.
On the northern front, an opening. Ferdinands had smashed the conscripts and infantry and moving into soviet line, four of them, plus two halftracks, seperating out from the rest. Smoke was layed for the first time now, behind these vehicles, cutting them off from support fire of their comrades. AT guns focused savagely on first one, then another. HMG's suppressed. Infantry charged in, taking losses but crawling forward. Ferdinands were disabled then abandoned. Halftracks were destroyed.
Light tanks were then sent forward to assist this effort in the north, but it was too early. 88mm's picked them out at long range and destroyed eight by the next move, the rest the next move.
German infantry and tanks were getting suppressed and halted, but they still rallied too well and it was difficult to get anything close. Nebelwerfers dropped among my troops and vapourised whole squads. It was starting to look like the Germans might rally and I was running out of stuff to pin them with. Mortars were out of ammo and AT guns were starting to run out too.
The tipping point was on move 15. Germans began bailing out of disabled tanks. Their crews were offered vodka and chocolate. Actually no, they were shot with everything that could still fire. A conscript squad assaulted and destroyed an advancing Tiger. The infantry were superb, achieving the impossible (and this is in the much maligned version 8.4)
The T34's were unleashed on turn 18. By then the Ferdinands were buttoned or disabled and facing the wrong way (still impervious to AT rounds). SS infantry roamed, isolated and half strength. Smoke from burning tanks and barrage carpeted everything. Reserve soviet troops marched forward past decimated squads and ammo-less guns.
The last Tiger went down to a lucky shot from the T34's (the only tank they would destroy). Everything russian surged forward, racing beyong to the final V-hexes. 88mm Flak guns were knocked out. Game ended on move 23 before the Soviets could get their hands on the Nebelwerfer crews. Atrocities clearly not tolerated by SPWAW engine.[;)]

The results speak for the themselves. Strategy works. In fact, the less terrain there is, the more strategy you need, because there's nothing else (literally and figuratively) to hide behind.

Combined arms. Rock - Scissors - Paper.



Goblin -> RE: Caveman opponent (10/8/2005 10:38:00 PM)

Why you are not writing for the Academy, I will never know. Nice points, Swamprat![8D]


Goblin



Svennemir -> RE: Caveman opponent (10/11/2005 5:56:39 AM)

Hehe, point taken, Swamprat. And good reading, too.

So I admit that there exists a strategy bad enough to lose regardless of initial conditions. But even though the AI is bad enough to be defeated while using Ferdinands in the open, a human player would be quite a difference challenge. Your strategy consisted of digging in, waiting, then fighting from stationary positions. Upon annihilation of the mindlessly advancing troops, you obtained map control. A human German player might have fortified in the middle and left you to advance. That would have been impossible without detection, and so the game would stall, leavig Germany with at least most of the victory points.

I fought one battle against a human player using a rather large number of super-tanks on a highly open map. Knowing my opponents habits, even I had decided to buy some nice SU-152's to keep the heavies at bay. I do not remember the amount of artillery support, though. It was a medium-small sized battle, perhaps somewhat smaller than the one you simulated.

The northern V-hexes were screened off by hills on one side and low-density forest on the other side. The middle V-hexes were luckily located behind hills. The southern ones were completely in the open.

I managed to seize a large part of the middle V-hexes, probably all three chunks, utilizing the speed advantage over the opposing forces. Tank riders dismounted and dug in, defending the northern and middle V-hexes. The southern chunk was left largely undefended and was taken by Germans at some time. First, fighting erupted in the north, where German heavies advanced against the hills/trees. Of course, it was not possible to gain entry without adequate infantry support, but sporadic tank fighting at medium range resulted in approximately equal losses. My vehicles would lurk somewhere in cover, looking for a spot from which it was possible to establish line of fire to one enemy without other enemies being visible. While this was initially somewhat successful, the opponent decided that discretion was the better part of valor and relocated efforts to the middle of the map.

My forces were confined to their initial positions since a couple of mean machines were overlooking the map. Specifically, it was not possible to relocate forces from the northern defense points to the middle. This the horribly slow and cautious Battle of the Middle began. To be honest, I do not remember the outcome. Some squads were routed, some tanks destroyed on either side. I believe the middle hexes were held, or maybe they were taken then retaken. In any case, the battle stalled and ended as a draw. Had there been less cover, my forces would have been doomed, or at least any attempt to hold V-hexes in the open would have failed.



Swamprat -> RE: Caveman opponent (10/11/2005 3:17:41 PM)

It doesn't sound as if you did too badly Sven.

I didn't dig in and wait for the enemy; I agree that against a human opponent it gives them the option to just sit on the hexes. But I advanced with my least visible units - my infantry. It's just that they walked, so the enemy got there first.

It's true that a good human player will do better with heavy armour than with flimsy armour. I was just trying to make the point that a player who relies purely on 'the good stuff' tends not to become a good player - and a good player with poor equipment can beat a poor player with great equipment. That's why the really good players on here start experimenting with minor nations, deliberately challenging themselves. They get better still then (alas I'm still mastering the major nations in the popular years of '44-'45 - I haven't fully moved on to the esoteric challenges yet - like the pacific for instance).

The simulation did teach me something though - to have a lot more faith in the infantry. You don't mention what your infantry was doing in your example. They seem flimsy, but they are tougher and more capable than most people assume.

In your example, having taken the middle hexes and found I could go no further, I'd have left troops with MG support close to the hexes and pulled AT guns and tanks back. Especially the tanks. Never defend captured ground with tanks if you can help it. The troops would have defended the area well, in spite of horrendous losses. Then AT guns would have inflicted more damage. When the enemy is buttoned and running with reduced shots due to 'combat fever', then you could have retaken the hexes with the tanks and cleaned up.

I might also have sent infantry walking towards the southern hexes, simply to challenge them and make the opponent keep more stuff there, thus not transferring strength to the middle sector.

But of course, I wasn't there and have no idea whether it would have been a good idea at all.



Colonel von Blitz -> RE: Caveman opponent (11/4/2005 1:11:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamprat

I was just trying to make the point that a player who relies purely on 'the good stuff' tends not to become a good player - and a good player with poor equipment can beat a poor player with great equipment.


Good point and quite true. Also excellent writing a bit earlier too, where you made the point that strategy counts. In that respect, there is no need to limitations...but there is also "dullness-factor".

At least for me it's boring to play against some people, when you know that "ok, it Soviet vs. Germany, late 1943, I'm the Soviet...hmmm, Germany will have Panthers, Nebelwerfers/Wurfrahmens and SS troops". After a couple of turns...surprise, that's what you're up against. Of course, now because you know what you have to fight, it's so easy to take the victory. But that's so BORING!

And about artillery, it's true that it can't take nor hold ground. But hey, if you're defending and your opponent has 20 regiments of 203mm guns, he can blast half the map away. And against that amount of arty, you can't hold ground, because everything is pulverized. That's also very, very BORING!

-Colonel-



Swamprat -> RE: Caveman opponent (11/4/2005 5:36:46 PM)

A very good point. The boredom factor is what bugs me the most when playing predictable opponents. Sometimes I get tired of playing either with or against German forces.

My most regular opponent recently lost a Russian vs German city fight in '45. He, as usual, bought lots of Tigers and Panthers, but was dismayed to discover that, at short to medium ranges, the Tiger MK1 wasn't such a big deal in 45. I could almost hear him crying as they were knocked out by my T44's with their standard 85mm gun. He quickly conceded then wanted a rematch on the same map. When we set up and started again I saw that, as far as he was concerned, he'd realised the errors of his ways and had changed his purchasing choices - he'd bought Kingtigers and Jadtigers instead. I had to laugh. And he's still losing.

Some people never learn.[8|]



VikingNo2 -> RE: Caveman opponent (11/4/2005 9:30:25 PM)

I will try not to be too predictable Mr Rat[8|]



Swamprat -> RE: Caveman opponent (11/4/2005 9:34:01 PM)

He he. No, somehow I doubt that you will be Mr Viking. I doubt that you will be.

Your reputation precedes you. [&o]



Colonel von Blitz -> RE: Caveman opponent (11/7/2005 7:56:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamprat

He, as usual, bought lots of Tigers and Panthers, but was dismayed to discover that, at short to medium ranges, the Tiger MK1 wasn't such a big deal in 45. I could almost hear him crying as they were knocked out by my T44's with their standard 85mm gun. He quickly conceded then wanted a rematch on the same map. When we set up and started again I saw that, as far as he was concerned, he'd realised the errors of his ways and had changed his purchasing choices - he'd bought Kingtigers and Jadtigers instead. I had to laugh. And he's still losing.


It's so strange to notice how many people think they can take the victory just by purchasing top-of-the-line equipment. These individuals usually laugh at my choises, at first, but that joyness quickly changes to agony and pain when his/her "superior" forces have been demolished by "second-rate troops".

When it comes back to thread subject, I usually limit my own purchases in PBEM games and try to at least loosely follow historical TO&Es. In addition, I have also put motorcycles in my ban-list (just because they are probably the most idiotic unit in the game - think about it, how many men could stay on the old sidecar Zündapp MC, when it's blasting through forest, rocks, swamp and trences 50 mph?? [:D] ). Of course, I usually will suggest to my opponent not to buy just the best equipment, but rather check out what there is and also include some second-rate units in his battalion/regiment. At the moment, in my best games I've played, there have been some agreements concerning the unit choises.

Btw, applying those real TO&Es is also quite good way to eliminate 152mm and 203mm howitzers from soviet arsenal in regular Meeting Engagement games!

Colonel



Puukkoo -> RE: Caveman opponent (11/7/2005 11:29:56 AM)

Panzerfausts and AT-mines, when used effectively, make tankers life difficult. There has been in some of my battles a PzSchreck unit that has destroyed five tanks. A Ritterkreutz to that guy.



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.219238