Manpower bombing

Manpower bombing (Full Version)

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Captain Ed -> Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 2:37:02 AM)
In my PBEM I am Japanese. I have the city of Changsa cutoff and surrounded since mid January 42 it is now June 42 I have been bombing it daily since January destroying its Rescources destroying its HI and I am now bombing its manpower and have started fires numbering about 7000 whatever that means the garrison is about 150,000. My question is what are the chinese troops living on I have entered the city three times now and have been evicted each time. I usually enter with a full strength division I figure they have no supply left or am I wrong.[&:]

Oznoyng -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 4:48:09 AM)
150,000 Chinese is a lot of troops. You are talking probably around 4000 assault points when fully supplied. Unsupplied, that amounts to probably 1000 AP... If your opponent flies in supply, you are talking a bit more. Then you need to factor in prep points, experience, fortifications, and leaders. If the fortifications are level 9, that will multiply the effectiveness of the trooops. I'm not sure, but I heard the figure of 25% per level of forts (only applies when you attack them). Attacking level 9 forts, those 1000 AP grow back to 3250 AP. From there, if your opponent has more prep points, better leaders, or better experience then you need to adjust your estimate of their assault points up. You also need to consider disruption and fatigue of the units. If you have been harassing the troops with aerial attacks, the disruption levels should be up elevated. If they are in range of a theatre HQ and a smaller HQ, the HQ's can add a good bit too. You should assume that all of these factors are in play. Now, as to your division. You are sending something like 400 assault points, assuming that you are only sending one division. I also assume you are not in range of an HQ. So you are sending 400 assault points against a position likely to have in excess of 1000 after accounting for all factors. It takes 2 to 1 odds to force a retreat, so each time you send in a division, it is getting kicked back because the odds are in his favor still. The easiest way to approach this is to look at the last attack and see what the odds were when he kicked you out of the hex. Multiple the AP that you send in by that number and add at the very least an army HQ.

doktorblood -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 8:47:40 AM)
Trying to take Changsha from a large Chinese force that is dug in is the WiTP equivalent of Stalingrad. One crummy division isn't going to get anywhere. You'll need to assemble at least 4000 assault points ...10+ fresh divisions plus reserve divisions to rotate into the city, plus blocking divisions to make sure the Chinese don't rotate fresh troops in. In other words the bulk of the China Expeditionary Army.

String -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 9:46:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: doktorblood Trying to take Changsha from a large Chinese force that is dug in is the WiTP equivalent of Stalingrad. One crummy division isn't going to get anywhere. You'll need to assemble at least 4000 assault points ...10+ fresh divisions plus reserve divisions to rotate into the city, plus blocking divisions to make sure the Chinese don't rotate fresh troops in. In other words the bulk of the China Expeditionary Army. UGH... I had changsha surrounded, with most of the chinese army there (although in a very mauled state) and almost all of my chinese expeditionary forces that i could gather (remember, changsha was the last city to fall) and it took months to wrest it from Andy Mac's hands.. urban terrain is a killer. edit: Bah.. just realized you were talking about Changsha not Chungking. Changsha has clear terrain which makes it one of the easiest cities to capture in China (given equal garrison forces). The thing is however that most allied players (including me) don't like to see Changsha captured so they reinforce it heavily.

Feinder -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 4:08:28 PM)

Make sure that when you move in, set your army (LOTS of divisions), to follows the unit with the highest fatigue. That will (mostly) insure that your units arrive together. Otherwise, you'll just trickle in piecemale, and your opponent will shock-attack you out each time.

1. Bomb his AF. He will burn supplies repairing it.
2. Also set bombers to "Ground Attack". That will directly attack the INF type formations, instead of just the ENG and HQs.
3. Move in as a group.
4. Make sure you have leaders with a good "land" skill.
5. Prep for the base you want to attack.

To my esteemed PBEM opponents. Stop reading now. You're doing just fine in our games. You obviously don't need the information that follows...

Modifiers
---------

1.  Supply Level multipliers
	200% = No modifier, but will draw replacements.
	100% = No modifier, but will not draw replacements locally.
	 66% = .75
	 33% = .50
	  0% = .25
		

2.  Forts multipliers
	0 = 1
	1 = 1.2 
	2 = 1.4
	3 = 1.6
	4 = 1.8
	5 = 2
	6 = 2.25
	7 = 2.5
	8 = 2.75
	9 = 3


3.  Terrain multipliers
	Clear = 1
	Woods = 2
	Swamp/Mtn = 3
	Urban = 4


4.  HQ multipliers
	Corps HQ within range = 1.1
	Command HQ within range = 1.9


5.  Prep-point multipliers
	(Prep-point level) + 1
	ex.  27 prep-points will give a multiplier of [i]roughly[/i] 1.27



===


Feinder's theories :


6.  Support level multipliers
	(percent of support level, max 100%)
	ex.  A force that has 100 Inf squads, but only 80 Support squads, will defend at [i]roughly[/i] 80% (80 assault strength).
	ex.  A force that has 100 Inf squads, and 120 Support squads, will defend at it's maximum of 100% (100 assault strength, there is no bonus for extra support).


7.  Fatigue multiplers
	(100 - fatigue) / 100
	ex.  A force with 32 fatigue would have a multiplier of about .68


8.  Disruption multiplier
	(100 - disruption) / 100
	ex.  A force with 40 disruption would have a multiplier of about .6


9.  Experience multiplier
	It [i]seems[/i] that about 60 exp is about "average", with a "1" multiplier (no benefit).  More exp gives a greater multiplier etc.  Less exp would give a fractional multiplier.  But I haven't really tested this.


10.  Moral multiplier
	I don't know if this matters.  I is -not- indicated in the manual that it has any effect.


11.  Leader multiplier
	The great abyss.  What benefits they give, remain a dark secret of the devs.


12.  Random roll.  There's always something that can make you go, "WTF?!"

tsimmonds -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 4:14:09 PM)
quote: There's always something that can make you go, "WTF?!" I used to wonder "WTF?" Now I just want to know, "WitP?"

Captain Ed -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 7:14:31 PM)
I should of clarified my question. I was not trying to capture the city with the one division just get a better idea of what was there, a probing attack if you like. I was trying to find out if bombing manpower, resources, and HI, will hasten the time when they do run out of supply. The fact that they could kick me out tells me they have adequate supply still, despite my bombing. I was hoping that at some point they would not be able to evict my one division then I would know that the forces in the city were impotent. I have LCU`s in every hex around Changsa. I also have other major Chinese cities in the same situation cutoff from Chunking and surrounded by Japanese ZOC`s or LCU`s these cities also have large Garrisons, as well as large Japanese LCU`s in them. Chunking is only connected to Chengtu and Kunming, I have every other city cutoff and or captured such as Sian. I was hoping to find out about my bombing practices as I could use the planes elswhere if they are not being used effectively.[:)]

Nikademus -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 7:24:55 PM)
bombing resources will reduce the supply gain for that city.

Big B -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 10:31:53 PM)
Speaking of supply and China etc, I know this has been covered in previous threads but- How can I figure supply consumption rates? Is there a posted formula? (I didn't notice it in the online-manual) There are of course variables like repairing damge, etc. But before starting a new campaign I realy need to be able to calculate supply consumption for offensive, defensive, and inactive units. Anyone - Help - Please[&:] B

Feinder -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 10:39:47 PM)
There was a time when I kept meticulous records of supply consumption in China. What I learned is : a. It's a crap shoot. b. There's never enough. c. Get an airlift going, and haul as much as you can over The Hump. d. Protect your Resource centers vs. a human opponent, because he -will- bomb them. Basically, supply usage goes up if there's more of it, and less if it's scarce. Caculating daily supply requirements isn't a liner thing. The more you have, the more you use. If you have very little, you eat very little. If you have extra, supply is burned to reduce disruption and fatigue, and increase moral. If you have enough, it will draw replacements. All these things "accellerate" as you have more supply (recover faster, draw more replacements etc). If you don't have enough supply, you will use less, but your fatigue and disruption will go up, and your morale go down. It's also a pain to track, because unless you're on an island, your base will try to draw supplies from other bases via the trail/road/rail net. But there isn't much you can really do to accurately track supply. -F-

Big B -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 10:59:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder There was a time when I kept meticulous records of supply consumption in China. What I learned is : a. It's a crap shoot. b. There's never enough. c. Get an airlift going, and haul as much as you can over The Hump. d. Protect your Resource centers vs. a human opponent, because he -will- bomb them. Basically, supply usage goes up if there's more of it, and less if it's scarce. Caculating daily supply requirements isn't a liner thing. The more you have, the more you use. If you have very little, you eat very little. If you have extra, supply is burned to reduce disruption and fatigue, and increase moral. If you have enough, it will draw replacements. All these things "accellerate" as you have more supply (recover faster, draw more replacements etc). If you don't have enough supply, you will use less, but your fatigue and disruption will go up, and your morale go down. It's also a pain to track, because unless you're on an island, your base will try to draw supplies from other bases via the trail/road/rail net. But there isn't much you can really do to accurately track supply. -F- Thanks Feinder, Where I am going with this is - There Seems Too Little Supply In China(the obvious) What I want to do is see if China even has enough supply in the stock game to supply it's units WITHOUT any combat activity at all. In other words - is the Chinese supply situation modeled so low that eventually China must implode due to lack of supply even if the Japanese do NOTHING. I have got to figure out what the baseline of supply for China is, just to see if it needs editing in the editor. B

Feinder -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 11:08:10 PM)
The "sorta" answer to your question is, "Yes, China starts at a supply deficit." (as in less than required). However, but as supply availability decreases so does usage. So even tho you have less than needed supplies, you burn less supplies. And depending on how bad the situation is (bright red), you wouldn't burn anything at all (unless in combat). Having red supplies and not burning any, would cause fatigue/disruption/morale/disablements. But the unit would still exist. It would be worthless as a combat formation (after a long time, supply effects are quite slow), but it would not likely just die. I believe the guys on CHS have placed more intrinsic supply centers in China (so they cannot be bombed), that help with this. But in the stock game, your guys are gonna have to eat bugs and anything else they can scrounge. -F-

Big B -> RE: Manpower bombing (10/6/2005 11:17:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder The "sorta" answer to your question is, "Yes, China starts at a supply deficit." (as in less than required). However, but as supply availability decreases so does usage. So even tho you have less than needed supplies, you burn less supplies. And depending on how bad the situation is (bright red), you wouldn't burn anything at all (unless in combat). Having red supplies and not burning any, would cause fatigue/disruption/morale/disablements. But the unit would still exist. It would be worthless as a combat formation (after a long time, supply effects are quite slow), but it would not likely just die. I believe the guys on CHS have placed more intrinsic supply centers in China (so they cannot be bombed), that help with this. But in the stock game, your guys are gonna have to eat bugs and anything else they can scrounge. -F- Ahem, well eating bugs ain't so bad - when you can get 'em. So long as the program allows enough bugs to eat! Seriously though, it looks like I may have to look at the CHS model to see what they found necessary to add. (thanks) B[8D] Sorry Cpt. Ed - didn't mean to steal your thread

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