RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage!

RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (Full Version)

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Nikademus -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 12:44:45 AM)
A protoype of a VT fuzed shell was included in a technology exchange between the UK and the US early on during the WWII. (The UK also shared TORPEX with us) The UK developed it....the US with it's vast industrial/scientific resources, perfected it. yea Allies! [;)]

spence -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 1:25:29 AM)
The US 90mm AAA also benefited from the proximity fuze though I am uncertain when it was deployed (subsequent to the 5"/38 anyway). 105mm/155mm Field Artillery also possessed shells with the fuze by the time of the Battle of the Bulge. Against infantry it was devastating exploding the shells approx 17 ft off the ground and primarily directing the shrapnel downward (as opposed to along the projected path of the projectile). I believe a large scale German attack on Elsenborn Ridge was smashed in its first operational use with field artillery. Since the Japanese did have a large undefended "flak gap" against level bombers IRL any weapons data change which corrects this deficiency is pure bunk and doesn't deserve inclusion in a historical simulation. As it is the Allies are deprived of their real life remedy for this deficiency. Murderous as Allied flak can be in the game it should be even more so given their technical edge;which, in effect multiplied the number of guns firing by decreasing the number of shells required to destroy an enemy aircraft by at least half.

Nikademus -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 1:47:08 AM)
quote: Since the Japanese did have a large undefended "flak gap" against level bombers IRL any weapons data change which corrects this deficiency is pure bunk and doesn't deserve inclusion in a historical simulation. [8\|]

worr -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 2:38:37 AM)
quote: Before we get too bent out of shape here we might consider that there is historical justification for this AA gap ... to wit the B29 strikes where reconfigured to go in at low altitudes in part to exploit this suspected gap That wasn't the reason. Worr, out

worr -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 2:41:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwilkerson There were more factors than just the jet stream ... Yes, but high altittude ack wasn't one of them. LeMay was worried about ack at low altititude. But bombing accuracy at high alt was not acceptable. Worr, out

worr -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 2:59:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spence From roughly Oct 42 onwards there should be no "flak gap" for the 5"/38 in any case with the introduction of the VT proximity fuze. This particular fuze exploded the AA shell at the closest point of approach to an enemy aircraft due to a radar transponder in the fuze itself. But this wouldn't support a gap in the anti-aircraft guns among the Nippon unites. Worr, out

jwilkerson -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 3:09:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: worr quote: ORIGINAL: jwilkerson There were more factors than just the jet stream ... Yes, but high altittude ack wasn't one of them. LeMay was worried about ack at low altititude. But bombing accuracy at high alt was not acceptable. Worr, out Worr - your comments might be interesting - but would you care to quote your sources as I did ? Thanks.

worr -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 3:44:53 AM)
My apologies for such a short post. I could quote sources but I was comfortable going from memory on this one. Also your internet source states that LeMay was worried about the low altitude raid..."I’m sweating this one out." Your original premise was he was worried about high altitude ack and that is what brought him low. But you own source points in the other direction as I read it. He was sweating out the issues at low altitude...not high...as this was a low alt mission being described....unless of course...I'm missing something here in the context. Actually, he was more worried about night fighters (only two squadron stationed in Nippon) than night ack since he stripped down the armor and ammo of the B-29s for these raids. Maybe there is more to the source you quoted that brings that in? LeMay was taking a gamble on the ack at low altitude, but not on the bombing at low altitude. And it was the latter that was the driving reason for brining the bombers down on the deck. He wasn't running from high altitude ack by any stretch either way you look at it. It just wasn't a deciding factor. More B29s came down due to mechanical problems than anything else before this. As for the jet stream, or winds. as others mentioned...the jet stream doesn't force you to low alt. It forces you below the stratosphere. Since the stratosphere isn't constant, but is simply where the standard lapse rate for temp beings to reverse...it can be as low as 29k, I believe. So a mid alt bombing run would have side stepped that issue. However, Jet Stream was a new discover in the time of WWII...so I doubt LeMay understood it enough to even think about doing something about it. Kamikaze means "divine wind" which destroyed the Russian fleet in recent past...could superstition be part of it? OK, maybe. But I doubt it. You have to understand the logistical side of the war...the B-29 was a multi-million dollar cash cow. There was enormous pressure to make it successful because it cost so much more to maintain as well as build in theater operations. I have a bibliography in BTR listed. But Walter Boyne's "Clash of Wings" provides a good summary. First B-29 raid of the war into Japan was from India. Less than 50 planes made the trip and only one bomb hit the target. A period from June into September brought abysmal results...hence LeMay's appointment. It took him until March of the following year. Worr, out [edit] I just read further into the thread...looks like you retracted your original premise. Ah, the internet!

worr -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 4:19:33 AM)
I just checked again....a more robust treatment is in Costello's The Pacific War. I should have added that incendiary raids was the more radicle departure and produced immediate results more so than low alt bombing. This from page 549: "THe high-level Superfortress raids had already showsn that Japan's anti-aircraft and firefighting defenses had not been equipped to deal with any kind of raid on urban areas, even though the American bomberse had been regularily penetrating Japan's airspace for many months." Worr, out

jwilkerson -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 4:52:31 AM)
I guess what might be useful is to summarize your position vis-a-vis the original post - which is a statement ( which some have agreed with and others not ) that in the game the "flak gap" is incorrectly represented, producing an a-historical disadvantage for the Japanese. I think many of us believe there was a flak gap - caused by tracking and fusing issues with the larger AA pieces. As to exactly what impact this has on the minimum effective range of the heavy flak, this has still eluded - at least me - however - for most of the pieces represented in the game - I think we would accept that there is some impact. Apollo11 is proposing to reduce the existing flak gap from the 6,000 to 9,000 foot altitude .. down to the 4,000 to 6,000 foot altitide.

worr -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 5:17:03 AM)
I'd rather stay with what I know for sure. Apollo 11 has always trumped me on game knowledge and testing his theories! I'm too lazy to pull a book down from the shelf and quote a page number rather than run a game turn to the nth time to see the results. :) Worr, out

Apollo11 -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 10:53:22 AM)
HI all, quote: ORIGINAL: spence Since the Japanese did have a large undefended "flak gap" against level bombers IRL any weapons data change which corrects this deficiency is pure bunk and doesn't deserve inclusion in a historical simulation. As it is the Allies are deprived of their real life remedy for this deficiency. Murderous as Allied flak can be in the game it should be even more so given their technical edge;which, in effect multiplied the number of guns firing by decreasing the number of shells required to destroy an enemy aircraft by at least half. The Japanese had difficulties in _NIGHT_ FLAK against lower flying US aircraft becuase of their lack of radar technology (i.e. proper altitude readings) - this is known and documented fact (although even with this in mind Japanese night FLAK something did very good)! But we are here (mostly) talking about _DAY_ low(er) level attacks with huge bombers!!! Heavy FLAK (i.e. heavy AA guns of 75mm and 105mm for Japanese for example) is almost useless in WitP wheter in now discovered "altitude gap" or above it... [X(][&:][:(] Do you really think this is OK (please note that is is _ABOVE_ FLAK "altitude gap" and that test was done in WitP v1.5)? quote: Description: I created brand new custom scenario for this testing. There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6. There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port. Weather is always clear. FoW is OFF. Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90. The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island. The B-29's attack from 10000ft. In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes). 5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings): ****************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-29 Superfortress x 84 Allied aircraft losses B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 17 damaged Japanese Ships AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2 AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1 AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage Japanese ground losses: 365 casualties reported Guns lost 15 Port hits 5 Port fuel hits 5 Port supply hits 2 Aircraft Attacking: 35 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-29 Superfortress x 89 Allied aircraft losses B-29 Superfortress: 9 damaged Japanese Ships TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1 AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1 TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1 Japanese ground losses: 437 casualties reported Guns lost 20 Port hits 7 Port fuel hits 4 Port supply hits 2 Aircraft Attacking: 36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-29 Superfortress x 88 Allied aircraft losses B-29 Superfortress: 20 damaged Japanese Ships AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1 TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AO Notoro, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AO Sata, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1 TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1 Japanese ground losses: 670 casualties reported Guns lost 28 Port hits 11 Port fuel hits 5 Port supply hits 3 Aircraft Attacking: 36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-29 Superfortress x 85 Allied aircraft losses B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged Japanese Ships AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2 TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1 AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1 AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1 AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1 Japanese ground losses: 265 casualties reported Guns lost 13 Port hits 8 Port fuel hits 1 Aircraft Attacking: 27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 19 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-29 Superfortress x 83 Allied aircraft losses B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged Japanese Ships AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shioya, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2 AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1 AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1 AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 399 casualties reported Guns lost 19 Port hits 5 Port fuel hits 2 Port supply hits 3 Aircraft Attacking: 27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** 1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only: **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-29 Superfortress x 54 Allied aircraft losses B-29 Superfortress: 3 damaged Japanese Ships AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 77 casualties reported Guns lost 6 Port hits 1 Port supply hits 2 Aircraft Attacking: 27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet 27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** Discussion: The devastation of ships in port is enormous... it's like shooting duck in a bathtub.. the only (possibly) good thing is that night time attack produced "only" 3 hits... Note that Japanese AAA units consist of: Heavy AA Rgt (5 units used): 105mm AA Gun x12 75mm AA Gun x12 13 mm AAMG (2) x 8 Thus there were (in total): 105mm AA Gun x60 75mm AA Gun x60 13 mm AAMG (2) x40 This is _TREMENDOUS_** number of muzzle power and large and relatively slow bombers flying at 10000 ft (= 3000 m = 3 km) should be easy easy targets... and quote: The B-17 instead of B-29 this time. Description: I created brand new custom scenario for this testing. Then I loaded WitP DataBase Editor and changed 444th and 462nd US Army airgroup aircraft in "AirGroup" tab from 201 - "B-29 Superfortress" to 195 - "B-17G fortress". After that I went to "Aircraft" tab and changed endurance of "B-17G fortress" to 1000 (in order for them to reach target). There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6. There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port. Weather is always clear. FoW is OFF. Two B-17G's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90. The B-17G's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island. The B-17G's attack from 10000ft. In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes). 5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings): ****************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-17G Fortress x 96 Allied aircraft losses B-17G Fortress: 1 destroyed, 30 damaged Japanese Ships AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Naruto, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1 AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1 TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1 Japanese ground losses: 516 casualties reported Guns lost 19 Port hits 9 Port fuel hits 3 Port supply hits 5 Aircraft Attacking: 26 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 27 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 11 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 8 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 13 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 10 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-17G Fortress x 94 Allied aircraft losses B-17G Fortress: 19 damaged Japanese Ships TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1 AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 261 casualties reported Guns lost 14 Port hits 5 Port fuel hits 4 Port supply hits 4 Aircraft Attacking: 48 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 36 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 6 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 4 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-17G Fortress x 94 Allied aircraft losses B-17G Fortress: 26 damaged Japanese Ships AO Sata, Bomb hits 1 TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1 AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 214 casualties reported Guns lost 11 Port hits 1 Port fuel hits 3 Port supply hits 1 Aircraft Attacking: 48 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 32 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 9 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 5 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-17G Fortress x 71 Allied aircraft losses B-17G Fortress: 10 damaged Japanese Ships AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Sata, Bomb hits 1 TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AO Shioya, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2 AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 407 casualties reported Guns lost 18 Port hits 5 Port supply hits 4 Aircraft Attacking: 27 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 36 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 5 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-17G Fortress x 93 Allied aircraft losses B-17G Fortress: 3 destroyed, 20 damaged Japanese Ships AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Sata, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 459 casualties reported Guns lost 15 Port hits 7 Port fuel hits 1 Port supply hits 3 Aircraft Attacking: 23 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 30 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 5 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 24 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 8 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** 1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only: **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-17G Fortress x 63 Allied aircraft losses B-17G Fortress: 11 damaged Japanese Ships AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1 Japanese ground losses: 42 casualties reported Guns lost 2 Aircraft Attacking: 27 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet 36 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** Discussion: Like with B-29's the B-17G-s brought similar (i.e. _BIG_*) devastation to ships... all my comments I did in case of B-29's are again applicable here... Please note that B-29 carries 40x 500 lb bombs while B-17G carries 12x 500 lb bombs. and quote:* The B-25 instead of B-29 this time. Description: I created brand new custom scenario for this testing. Then I loaded WitP DataBase Editor and changed 444th and 462nd US Army airgroup aircraft in "AirGroup" tab from 201 - "B-29 Superfortress" to 185 - "B-25C Mitchell". After that I went to "Aircraft" tab and changed endurance of "B-25C Mitchell" to 1000 (in order for them to reach target). There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6. There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port. Weather is always clear. FoW is OFF. Two B-25C's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90. The B-25C's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island. The B-25C's attack from 10000ft. In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes). 5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings): ****************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-25C Mitchell x 91 Allied aircraft losses B-25C Mitchell: 8 damaged Japanese Ships AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AO Naruto, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2 AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1 AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Sata, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 566 casualties reported Guns lost 19 Port hits 12 Port fuel hits 3 Port supply hits 3 Aircraft Attacking: 36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 18 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 22 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 9 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-25C Mitchell x 95 Allied aircraft losses B-25C Mitchell: 17 damaged Japanese Ships AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Naruto, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1 AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1 AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1 AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 404 casualties reported Guns lost 15 Port hits 6 Port fuel hits 3 Port supply hits 3 Aircraft Attacking: 20 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 13 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 11 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 7 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-25C Mitchell x 93 Allied aircraft losses B-25C Mitchell: 2 destroyed, 15 damaged Japanese Ships TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 2 AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Ondo, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 360 casualties reported Guns lost 14 Port hits 4 Port fuel hits 3 Aircraft Attacking: 22 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 9 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 13 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-25C Mitchell x 96 Allied aircraft losses B-25C Mitchell: 3 destroyed, 12 damaged Japanese Ships AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 5, on fire AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1 AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 2 AO Naruto, Bomb hits 3, on fire TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shioya, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2 AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AO Ondo, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1 AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Japanese ground losses: 471 casualties reported Guns lost 20 Port hits 11 Port fuel hits 3 Port supply hits 5 Aircraft Attacking: 47 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 46 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-25C Mitchell x 94 Allied aircraft losses B-25C Mitchell: 3 destroyed, 10 damaged Japanese Ships AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2 AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1 AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1 AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1 AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1 TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1 Japanese ground losses: 470 casualties reported Guns lost 14 Port hits 5 Port fuel hits 2 Port supply hits 3 Aircraft Attacking: 46 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 35 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** 1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only: **************************************************************************** AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63 Allied aircraft B-25C Mitchell x 63 Allied aircraft losses B-25C Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged Japanese Ships TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1 AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 1 Japanese ground losses: 117 casualties reported Guns lost 9 Port hits 1 Port fuel hits 2 Aircraft Attacking: 26 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet **************************************************************************** Discussion: Like with B-29's the B-25C's brought similar (i.e. _BIG_**) devastation to ships... all my comments I did in case of B-29's are again applicable here... perhaps what is interesting is to note that B-25C's were deadlier than B-17G's... Please note that B-29 carries 40x 500 lb bombs while B-25C carries 6x 500 lb bombs. Leo "Apollo11"

tabpub -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 12:29:38 PM)
Apollo: What is the point of these posts again? That out of 3000 bombs that there were at most 100 hits against ships that were in an area of some 200,000 square meters? Or the flak results? The only thing about the flak results that I can say is a paraphrase of a quote that recollect from a Japanese AA commander. In short, he said that they were basically just firing to make the brass happy; as they rarely saw any effect from their fire. I believe that some of the factors that were mentioned were bad quality of both shells and fusing, inability to get good range/height estimation of the targets and rate of fire was low. Finally, regarding the 29 specifically, the speed of the plane and the relatively dispersed formations made the nature of the flak much different than the European version vs. the 17. If the German flak was an animal, it would be a grizzly bear; 10 feet long and weighing in at at 1000 kilos. The Japanese flak would be somewhat like a little black bear; 6-7 feet long and 300 kilos. Anti-air defense was not a big forte' of the Japanese.

Apollo11 -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 1:02:52 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: tabpub What is the point of these posts again? That out of 3000 bombs that there were at most 100 hits against ships that were in an area of some 200,000 square meters? Or the flak results? The only point and emphasis are FLAK results. quote: The only thing about the flak results that I can say is a paraphrase of a quote that recollect from a Japanese AA commander. In short, he said that they were basically just firing to make the brass happy; as they rarely saw any effect from their fire. I believe that some of the factors that were mentioned were bad quality of both shells and fusing, inability to get good range/height estimation of the targets and rate of fire was low. Finally, regarding the 29 specifically, the speed of the plane and the relatively dispersed formations made the nature of the flak much different than the European version vs. the 17. If the German flak was an animal, it would be a grizzly bear; 10 feet long and weighing in at at 1000 kilos. The Japanese flak would be somewhat like a little black bear; 6-7 feet long and 300 kilos. Anti-air defense was not a big forte' of the Japanese. I think we must first "dissect" what we are talking about here... in other words what were the threats opposing sides faced and how they tried to counter it... USA USN was facing Kamikaze threat and to counter it (and other air threats) the so-called "VT Fuse" AA shells were created. They were great and did miracles! Kamikaze attacks were predominantly single (of couple) aircraft coming from _DIFFERENT_ altitudes at _VARIOUS_ angles in dive and using _VARIABLE_ speeds. Such attacks were almost impossible to counter without "VT Fuse" shells. Germany and Japan Germany and Japan were predominantly faced with day/night attacks by huge bomber groups. Those bombers (i.e. subgroups inside bigger bomber groups) attacked at _CONSTANT_ altitudes, _CONSTANT_ speeds and _CONSTANT_ headings. The problems facing German/Japanese AA was thus totally different from the one that was facing USN. To counter it thousands of AA guns were used. The most widely used tactics was to fire as fast as possible and as much as possible shells at selected altitude and thus create "curtain" or "cloud" of FLAK into which bombers would fly into. Thherefore the huge concentration of explosions at certain area in the sky would most certainly damage/destroy bombers that would pass through it (it's the law of probability). BTW, for this to happen accurate altitude, heading and speed measurements were needed on enemy bombers which was not problem in good visibility at day but more problematic at night or when cloud cover was present. Japanese with their lack in radar technology in most part had to relay on this tactics alone. Germans on, other hand, had more options. Their "Freya" long rage radars would give the overall picture and "Wurzburg" radars would guide individual AA batteries on individual (or small groups) of enemy bombers with great success. Germans also used "Wurzburg" radars to guide coupled search lights during the night (and then illuminate targets to non-radar equipped AA batteries). So... what this all means you may ask? Well... in broad daylight and in clear weather the Japanese _HAD_ their chance of accurately judging incoming bomber altitude, heading and speed and thus it would be rather easy to raise the "curtain" or "cloud" of FLAK into which enemy bombers would fly into. The tests I listed were all done in daylight and in perfect clear weather. US B-29, B-17 and B-25 bombers were flying at lowly 10000 ft (3000m = 3 km). Don't you think results of Japanese FLAK were way way too insignificant then? Leo "Apollo11"

tabpub -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 2:33:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: tabpub What is the point of these posts again? That out of 3000 bombs that there were at most 100 hits against ships that were in an area of some 200,000 square meters? Or the flak results? The only point and emphasis are FLAK results. quote: The only thing about the flak results that I can say is a paraphrase of a quote that recollect from a Japanese AA commander. In short, he said that they were basically just firing to make the brass happy; as they rarely saw any effect from their fire. I believe that some of the factors that were mentioned were bad quality of both shells and fusing, inability to get good range/height estimation of the targets and rate of fire was low. Finally, regarding the 29 specifically, the speed of the plane and the relatively dispersed formations made the nature of the flak much different than the European version vs. the 17. If the German flak was an animal, it would be a grizzly bear; 10 feet long and weighing in at at 1000 kilos. The Japanese flak would be somewhat like a little black bear; 6-7 feet long and 300 kilos. Anti-air defense was not a big forte' of the Japanese. I think we must first "dissect" what we are talking about here... in other words what were the threats opposing sides faced and how they tried to counter it... USA USN was facing Kamikaze threat and to counter it (and other air threats) the so-called "VT Fuse" AA shells were created. They were great and did miracles! Kamikaze attacks were predominantly single (of couple) aircraft coming from _DIFFERENT_ altitudes at _VARIOUS_ angles in dive and using _VARIABLE_ speeds. Such attacks were almost impossible to counter without "VT Fuse" shells. Germany and Japan Germany and Japan were predominantly faced with day/night attacks by huge bomber groups. Those bombers (i.e. subgroups inside bigger bomber groups) attacked at _CONSTANT_ altitudes, _CONSTANT_ speeds and _CONSTANT_ headings. The problems facing German/Japanese AA was thus totally different from the one that was facing USN. To counter it thousands of AA guns were used. The most widely used tactics was to fire as fast as possible and as much as possible shells at selected altitude and thus create "curtain" or "cloud" of FLAK into which bombers would fly into. Thherefore the huge concentration of explosions at certain area in the sky would most certainly damage/destroy bombers that would pass through it (it's the law of probability). BTW, for this to happen accurate altitude, heading and speed measurements were needed on enemy bombers which was not problem in good visibility at day but more problematic at night or when cloud cover was present. Japanese with their lack in radar technology in most part had to relay on this tactics alone. Germans on, other hand, had more options. Their "Freya" long rage radars would give the overall picture and "Wurzburg" radars would guide individual AA batteries on individual (or small groups) of enemy bombers with great success. Germans also used "Wurzburg" radars to guide coupled search lights during the night (and then illuminate targets to non-radar equipped AA batteries). So... what this all means you may ask? Well... in broad daylight and in clear weather the Japanese _HAD_ their chance of accurately judging incoming bomber altitude, heading and speed and thus it would be rather easy to raise the "curtain" or "cloud" of FLAK into which enemy bombers would fly into. The tests I listed were all done in daylight and in perfect clear weather. US B-29, B-17 and B-25 bombers were flying at lowly 10000 ft (3000m = 3 km). Don't you think results of Japanese FLAK were way way too insignificant then? Leo "Apollo11" No. What were the loss rates again that you were seeing (I am too tired, up all night to add it all up) ? For example, night raids against urban areas that would be defended by flak of the amount/type that you are describing suffered a 2% loss rate at 5-6 thousand feet. I don't know what type of loss rate to AAA you are expecting, but when there are many opinions that it took around 3-4 thousand shells overall (day/night with German equipment) to destroy or significantly damage 1 bomber one would have to think that the loss rate to aa for this type of mission would have to be significantly lower in the Pacific. I shall attempt to dig around in the near future to see if I can come up with some harder figures/quotes.

medicff -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/9/2005 7:04:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 USN was facing Kamikaze threat and to counter it (and other air threats) the so-called "VT Fuse" AA shells were created. They were great and did miracles! Kamikaze attacks were predominantly single (of couple) aircraft coming from _DIFFERENT_ altitudes at _VARIOUS_ angles in dive and using _VARIABLE_ speeds. Such attacks were almost impossible to counter without "VT Fuse" shells. The VT fuse was in development and testing long before the kamikaze attack. It just amplified the success of the program.

Kereguelen -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/10/2005 1:49:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Don't you think results of Japanese FLAK were way way too insignificant then? Hi, this seems not only to be a problem of the impact of Japanese flak but rather with not enough AA guns in the game as part of AA units (a TOE/OOB question): I've seen many AAR's where KB stayed some days near PH, happily bombing ships in the port (with torpedo and bomb attacks at low levels). The game gives the Allied player three US Coastal AA Regiments and some other formations with AA guns as part of their OOB (and, of course, the AA guns from the ships in port). These are the formations that were (historically) present then. But in the game we have a TOE for US Cst. AA Regiments with 12x90mm/8x37mm/8x20mm. Historically US Coastal AA Regiments contained at least 48 50cal Browning AAMG[X(] in their 2nd Battery (12x 3in/90mm is correct for 1st Battery, the actual number of 37mm guns in the second battery remains some kind of mystery to me because sources are rather confusing about this, 16x 37mm and no 20mm seems to be the most common equipment and it seems that there were at least eight more 50cal Brownings in the first battery). Similar problem with British/CW TOE's: In the game the Allied player has only one British Lt. AA Rgt (the 48th; which btw. was not present in Malaya in Dec 1941 but arrived later, but that's another story). It has a TOE of 12x 40mm Bofors/12x 20mm Oerlikon in the game. Historically British Lt. AA Rgt. had 3 batteries with 18 40mm Bofors each (that is 54x 40mm Bofors!). And as far as I know all British Lt. AA Rgt that fought in SE Asia were equipped with Bofors batteries (it seems that batteries containing 20mm Oerlikon or Polsten guns were only employed in the ETO). At least three full-strength LAA Rgt and two HAA Rgt (with 24x 3.7in AA guns each) arrived at Singapore in January 1942 (they were later destroyed in Java). Ever wondered why (in the game) it is a problem even to unload supplies at Singapore without heavy shipping losses in Jan 1942 in most games because of the danger of Betty torpedo attacks while historically the British had no problem with shipping a full division (18th British) and two Indian Brigades to Singapore? Of course the Japanes also miss some (light) AA units in the game (that is, I was able to identify some missing AA units), but in this regard I'm not sure if they're not represented by IJA/IJN base forces. Others may be more knowledgeable about this, I'm simply lacking the necessary source material about Japanese AA units. Even if one assumes that Allied base forces represent some Allied AA units, the sheer numbers of AA units and AA guns available in the PTO are certainly not adequately represented (I can definitely tell this for British AA units). The AA-gap: When the Germans attacked Britain with V-1 rockets the British had a problem with them when they came in at 2,500 feet because (according to British sources) there was a gap at this altitude for efficient light and heavy AA gun fire. Only thing I was able to find out about this. Your tests: Very interesting stuff, but till now they only tell us that heavy bombers seem to be too efficient when attacking ports. Try the same test with dive/torpedo bombers attacking on low level vs. massed light flak (Japanese 13.7mm AAMG, 20mm, and 25mm guns). If we don't see effective AA then, you 're right with your conclusions... K

Andrew Brown -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/10/2005 3:34:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kereguelen this seems not only to be a problem of the impact of Japanese flak but rather with not enough AA guns in the game as part of AA units (a TOE/OOB question): Very interesting. Are you interested in summarising what you believe needs fixing in the OOBs (unit arrivals etc.) and the TO&Es? Or is is just what you have already posted? It might be possible for something to be done for inclusion in CHS.

Kereguelen -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/10/2005 5:15:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown quote: ORIGINAL: Kereguelen this seems not only to be a problem of the impact of Japanese flak but rather with not enough AA guns in the game as part of AA units (a TOE/OOB question): Very interesting. Are you interested in summarising what you believe needs fixing in the OOBs (unit arrivals etc.) and the TO&Es? Or is is just what you have already posted? It might be possible for something to be done for inclusion in CHS. Hi, I'll post here (and PM you) what I have about this. Should be able to do this until tomorrow (I'm at work now). It should contain: (1) Arrival times for all British AA Regiments (LAA and HAA) based on good (and trustworthy) sources. Some British AA regiments in SE Asia were disbanded because of manpower shortages in British infantry units in 1943/44 and it seems that Indian AA units received their equipment then. (2) Some material about Indian AA Regiments including place and time of their formation or conversion from other units. Existing sources are good but do not cover all Indian AA units and don't tell much about the actual composition of this units (I'ld bet that they received second-rate equipment). (3) Something about US Coastal AA Regiments. This concers mainly their composition and there're some big "?" coming along. I still lack an "official" TOE for them that could clear some questions. The only thing that seems to be clear to me is the composion of their 1st Battalions and that their 2nd Battalions were AAA-Battalions with lots of 50cal AAMG. (4) I don't know much about Australian AA Regiments. Their actual strength could have varied if they contained only two instead of the usual three batteries (16 instead of 24 guns for HAA, 36 instead of 54 guns if LAA Bofors or 32 instead of 48 if LAA Oelikon), but they used the British TOE. (5) Japanese AA units: Don't have much about them. It is certainly interesting that most Japanese units completely lacked AA units as part of their TOE (some brigades had organic AA). It seems to me (some kind of theory) that the Japanese tried to counter this problem by allocating (lots of) 20mm AA/AT guns to some (reinforced) divisions. But this applies mainly to formations of the Kwantung Army facing the Soviets (maybe one of the lessons taken from their desasters at Khalkin-Gol and Nomonhan). Would have been logical because low flying (ground-attack and dive) bombers were the main threat for ground units and the Japanese had greatly suffered from this when fighting the Soviets. But it seems that the Japanese attached small AA units (AA battalions with up to 75mm AA guns) to formations that fought in the Solomons and Burma when Allied air superiority became a problem for them. Nevertheless, it seems that the main problem the Japanese faced was their inability to produce enough AA guns to meet their demands (but this problem did not only exist with AA guns but with Japanese artillery in general. K

castor troy -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/10/2005 6:10:19 PM)
The worst thing about all this damn AA thing is that it´s now spoken about at the forum! [:@]. I didn´t know that, as two of my PBEM opponents didn´t know that too. Since it is discussed at the forum those two are bombing every Japanese target at 6000 feet with their bombers. Before that, they came in at 15.000 - 25000 feet too avoid flak (but in fact lost more planes than attacking at 6000). This sucks!!!!!!!!!!![:(]

Apollo11 -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/10/2005 7:11:28 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy The worst thing about all this damn AA thing is that it´s now spoken about at the forum! [:@]. I didn´t know that, as two of my PBEM opponents didn´t know that too. Since it is discussed at the forum those two are bombing every Japanese target at 6000 feet with their bombers. Before that, they came in at 15.000 - 25000 feet too avoid flak (but in fact lost more planes than attacking at 6000). This sucks!!!!!!!!!!![:(] I am sorry but this simply had to be told... Leo "Apollo11"

Speedysteve -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/10/2005 7:13:03 PM)
You should ask them NOT to bomb at that altitude. To do so all the time to exploit a 'quirk' is not right IMO. Or at least vary it - 6000 feet now and then. 12,000 feet others, 15,000 feet etc.

castor troy -> RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage! (10/10/2005 8:58:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy The worst thing about all this damn AA thing is that it´s now spoken about at the forum! [:@]. I didn´t know that, as two of my PBEM opponents didn´t know that too. Since it is discussed at the forum those two are bombing every Japanese target at 6000 feet with their bombers. Before that, they came in at 15.000 - 25000 feet too avoid flak (but in fact lost more planes than attacking at 6000). This sucks!!!!!!!!!!![:(] I am sorry but this simply had to be told... Leo "Apollo11" yes Apollo, it has to be told! But every time people know a new exploit they may use it. And you can´t have a house rule for everything in that game

SurrenderMonkey -> Flak Issues (10/10/2005 9:14:26 PM)
I feel the pain of all other Japanese players re:AA, whether the in-game effect is correct or not. My buddy and I have been playing one day turns, one per day, since last September, and our game has evolved into a wonderful struggle over New Caledonia in Julyof 1942. He holds Noumea in the south, and I hold Koumac in the north, and we have been viciously fighting over it for a good three months. He only has one carrier, but he has plenty of 4E bombers, so it's LBA vs LBA. I keep rotating Zero and Oscar squadrons through Koumac as I strive to build up the base, while he flies a hundred heavy bombers at a time in raids. It's been epic. I went to the trouble of shipping both heavy and light AA units from all over the Pacific into Koumac in an effort to deter him, but it's been in vain. I have a whole infantry division and two tank regiments dug in, but they get mercilessly hammered 2 out of every 3 days. My AA is almost completely ineffective. From what I can ascertain from historical accounts, this reflects history well. IMHO.

Apollo11 -> Idea!!! (10/10/2005 10:01:37 PM)
Hi all, I just had an idea!!! Using simple high-school mathematics/physics we can ourselves calculate the MIN altitude ceiling of AA gun! What we need is: - shell exit velocity (i.e. speed shell has when exiting barrel of AA gun) - shell weight - MIN timing of shell fuse Does anyone knows if such data is available in books (we as community have huge amount of books!) or Internet? If data for Japanese AA weapons is unavailable is there any similar data for British/German/USA AA guns of similar caliber (75mm, 88mm, 90mm, 105mm)? Leo "Apollo11"

rtrapasso -> RE: Idea!!! (10/10/2005 10:05:42 PM)
quote: - MIN timing of shell fuse I am sure some wag will say MIN timing = 0. Not that i would ever say it, but i am sure someone would...[:D] Of course, this MIN timing might have some adverse effects on the AA gun crews!!

Apollo11 -> RE: Idea!!! (10/10/2005 10:08:10 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: - MIN timing of shell fuse I am sure some wag will say MIN timing = 0. Not that i would ever say it, but i am sure someone would...[:D] Of course, this MIN timing might have some adverse effects on the AA gun crews!! [8D] BTW, I think I remember that I once read that famous German FLAK 88mm had MIN time fusing 2 or 3 seconds for anti-aircraft shell but I am not 100% sure of that and I can't find where I read it right now (the exit velocity of that gun was around 900 m/s)... Leo "Apollo11"

tabpub -> RE: Idea!!! (10/10/2005 10:51:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: - MIN timing of shell fuse I am sure some wag will say MIN timing = 0. Not that i would ever say it, but i am sure someone would...[:D] Of course, this MIN timing might have some adverse effects on the AA gun crews!! [8D] BTW, I think I remember that I once read that famous German FLAK 88mm had MIN time fusing 2 or 3 seconds for anti-aircraft shell but I am not 100% sure of that and I can't find where I read it right now (the exit velocity of that gun was around 900 m/s)... Leo "Apollo11" 3 second fusing would be right about where the current system has it at; 2 seconds still has the min height at 5500 feet or so based on these numbers.

jwilkerson -> RE: Idea!!! (10/10/2005 10:52:24 PM)
I'm still hunting for minimum fusing as well !!! Looking for anything remotely in the ball park including US M.T. M43A5 fuse which was used on 3in, 90mm and 105mm AA rounds ... the max fuse setting was 30 seconds but no minimum yet ... I found a web site with old US government military pubs .. and they had manuals on some fuzes .. but alas .. not the M43A5 [&:] so ... still lookin'

Apollo11 -> RE: Idea!!! (10/10/2005 10:59:53 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: tabpub 3 second fusing would be right about where the current system has it at; 2 seconds still has the min height at 5500 feet or so based on these numbers. Not exactly... speed loss due to gravity pull and air friction would slow shell down from initial high speed... Leo "Apollo11"

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