Diplomacy, Squad Leader & Paradox (Full Version)

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Veldor -> Diplomacy, Squad Leader & Paradox (10/19/2005 6:23:09 AM)

Though I have had the pleasure of playing Squad Leader off of the computer, I have to confess that I was never so fortuneate with Diplomacy. I remember owning the game (It was designed only a few miles away from me by a fellow Chicagoan). I remember looking over the game components and the rules, something I did with any game that I owned but didn't play. Nothing about the rules seemed special. And I just never quite got what the big deal was with a bunch of blue blocks and a somewhat poorly drawn mapboard. Unfortuneately it was not hardcore enough for the wargamers I played with and probably too wargame like for the sci-fi/fantasy gamers I knew as well. Well I didn't get it because Diplomacy is one of those odd gems you have to actually play to see the beauty in.

Fast Forward to late 90's when Microprose announces it will be making both Diplomacy and Squad Leader for the PC!!! Of course I was excited about Squad Leader, and couldn't care less about Diplomacy. Oh what a disappointment Squad Leader turned out to be... If ever a true waste of money a game purchase was I think that was it. So poorly received was that game that I think not but a year later you could not even find mention of it on Microprose's website. So I think it was almost out of desperation that I obtained Microprose's Diplomacy.

And finally got to experience it. What a wonderfully unique wargame it was. Here is the most favorite setting and scale for a wargame... yet with such a neat social twist to it. My biggest disappointment with the game was in how quickly online opponents disappeared. Soon I couldn't find any. So I attempted solitaire and quickly grew bored with the A.I. and I, like everyone else, stopped even bothering with the diplomacy and simply conquered all as if it were merely Axis & Allies or any other wargame. So I shelved it forever (though it remained in my do not throw out collection).

Fast Forward again to about a year ago. Paradox makes the announcement that they will bring the same two games to the PC. I instantly start cursing. Had people forgotten the previous disasters after only a few years? Would Paradox not just further massacre the Squad Leader name and turn it and Diplomacy into some pseudo-wargame-RTS game(s) of little resemblance?

Fast Forward to about 6 months or so ago when I had the fortune of chatting with one of the folks at Paradox. Amongst other claims he swore to me they were all true boardgame/wargame fans with the best of intentions for the AH titles they were getting rights to. I have to admit, even then, I thought it somewhat akin to when a kid swears they didn't steal any cookies from the cookie jar, yet their face is covered in chocolate...

And so we Fast Forward to present... And I am utterly shocked to see what Diplomacy from Paradox is. A GREAT GAME! Not only did they not turn it into some pseudo RTS game, but they emphasized in the game the very part of the game that is the core.. the social diplomatic aspects. Likewise the A.I. appears fixed in that regard as well. A clean useful interface. And so on.

Admittedly, these are mostly just first impressions at this point. But the exciting thing for me has little to even do with Diplomacy...

Its the realization that assuming Paradox does come through with that Squad Leader Title (heard/seen so very little about it since 6 months ago) that it just might well be a darn good game as well.

Score 1 for Paradox!




Veldor -> RE: Diplomacy, Squad Leader & Paradox (10/19/2005 6:34:04 AM)

BTW for those that don't like to read the short version is: "Go Buy Paradox's Diplomacy Game!". Every wargamer needs something different, and Diplomacy is certainly it!

But, since this is Matrix's forums, and you read it here you have to promise to buy a Matrix game also! :)

My pick is Crown of Glory.




ioticus -> RE: Diplomacy, Squad Leader & Paradox (10/19/2005 7:31:35 AM)

How's the AI? Since I have no desire to play this multiplayer, I need a good AI to make it interesting.




Veldor -> RE: Diplomacy, Squad Leader & Paradox (10/19/2005 7:44:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ioticus

How's the AI? Since I have no desire to play this multiplayer, I need a good AI to make it interesting.


Well I think it was the wargammer reviewer that said he played the old one the same way I did against the AI...without diplomacy because you could win easily without it so why bother? Except your missing half the game that way and the half that makes the game so unique (Thats why the old game could really only be enjoyed multiplayer of which I could never find opponents). All appearances are that such a strategy is impossible with the new A.I. from Paradox.

However I think any intial opinion on A.I. is mostly invalid until you've spent more time with the game. I wouldn't consider myself an expert at Diplomacy Strategy as I haven't played the game in years. Not sure about others out there but so far everything I've seen has had a favorable opinion of the A.I. I'd also say that the mere fact that the A.I. understands the diplomatic aspects of the game can only be a good sign.

It would appear to me that Paradox rightly looked at what was most wrong with Microprose's version and focused their efforts primarily on simply fixing those areas. Given that the graphics and interface are also well improved and its a great game to begin with... It just seems like an all around win to me....




Hanal -> RE: Diplomacy, Squad Leader & Paradox (10/19/2005 1:57:37 PM)

Tha AI is a vast improvement from the Microprose debacle, but I concede that it still needs some work. I cannot imagine how difficult it is to have an AI perform the complex diplomatic actions that Diplomacy can deliver so there are currently some limitations in the AI negotiating process. Right now one of the biggest concerns is that the AI stabs the player way too often, but some have said (with toungue in cheek) that it makes for a challenging game. The interface is clean and well designed and my only gripe is the excessive pornographc sound effects you hear as the AI avatars grunt, moan, groan, and sigh in response to the moves.

For gamers who have never played TT Diplomacy, they will find the AI a challenge for awhile and it will be a great tool for learning the game and hopefully there will be a strong multiplayer base for the game over time. One thing I am sure of is that Paradox supports their games, so there will be improvements.

If you head over to the Paradox Diplomacy forum, you will find a number of links to reviews which are more comprehensive than what I provided here. So far the independent reviews have been quite favorable.




Veldor -> RE: Diplomacy, Squad Leader & Paradox (10/21/2005 12:56:13 AM)

Alright, so now that I have spent more time with the game I can ammend my previously mostly positive review..

So here are my faults in the game:

1. Music/Sound - OMG is it awful. I can't remember a single game in the last 2 decades that has had such bad background music that I actually had to turn it off. It's not just that its repetitive, its simply composed of the most annoying sounds imaginable. Which fits right into the sounds for the game so accurately described by Mr. Falcon as pornographic in nature. Equally as annoying. That leaves a few dings and blips here or there of which are not suprisingly disappointing. Wargammer gave this game I think it was a 2/10 for Sound but if this game isn't a 1 in that department, then I don't know what game would be.
2. Tutorial - OMG is it awful. Not only is there some kind of font problem (" look like high-ascii symbols and such) but it is filled with mispellings, incomplete sentences, and poor grammar. Even if thats excusable, it reads more like a long winded forum post than a concise, well layed out and thought out tutorial. The author goes off on so many tangeants I half expected to start reading about his grand kids a few screens later. This was clearly a last minute effort. I honestly would have prefered simply reading a tutorial in the manual (And reading the whole manual actually turned out to be quicker than going through all the tutorials!!!). Not helpful at all I tried to stay committed but had to quit after the 3rd one I think. Couldn't take it..
3. Resolution Phase. Though the interface is very well done, its almost impossible to make sense of whats going on when the computer resolves all the moves/combat etc. The screen jumps around oddly, has the most boring animations I've ever seen (complete with the most boring accompanying sound effects) and I simply find it so useless that I have just turned it off altogether. This also nicely eliminates the porno's from playing. I would have prefered some kind of review screen where I could scroll about and see what moves were placed, then again once it was all resolved. Anything but how it is now.
4. AI - I have to partially recant my previous praise here. It's an all to common problem. It's not that the AI is dumb. Its WAY SMARTER than the last Diplomacy game. The problems are:

1. Other countries fail to realize when you are growing 2 strong and do not decide to alter diplomacy or attack destinations based on that.
2. When faced with the same decision, it makes the same predictable move every single time regardless of its "personality".
3. It lacks strategic understanding in many of those decisions.

Perfect example. I play Russia and usually move on Sweden leaving my highest resource point unguarded. The brits generally take Norway. If I continue to leave the resource point unguarded, they will take it with their naval unit from Norway EVERY SINGLE TIME at the next fall turn. The problem with this is that they 1. Never move something else into Norway, so I just know to issue an order to move 1 unsupported unit there. 2. More importantly they have no means of defending what they just took, whereas I do. Often they just abandon it algother and move back out to sea. 3. The point being they didnt gain a thing, they "swapped" territories and got a less defensible etc etc. Just overly aggressive and risky.

Which would be fine if it varied up what it would do. But it seems more and more like it doesn't. I can consistently win as the Russians will little more diplomacy than a Non-aggression treaty with Italy. Though I am more proficient in Russian Strategy than in, say, the Germans who I have a much harder time with due to their central location in the game. I suppose If I could consistently win with the germans it would be a bad sign :)

But the game is still a brilliant design. It shows how added abstraction in a wargame, done in the right way, INCREASES the strategy in the game. Its chess like in how you have to think ahead what your opponents might be doing, where they might be moving. Add to that social aspects of figuring out who you can really trust, whose really willing to help you, who will stab you in the back... and throw in some wargaming..

The game may well have its faults but I'd still classify it as a must have.

I'd also assume Paradox will patch the A.I. to be better over time (crossing fingers)....




wodin -> RE: Diplomacy, Squad Leader & Paradox (10/21/2005 1:57:34 AM)

Fingers crossed for Squad Leader. Lets hope they keep it as close as possible to the boardgame.





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