RE: AI for MWiF-Italy

RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (Full Version)

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Gurggulk -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/12/2009 10:55:15 PM)
Italian Naval Deployment Without Limited Overseas Supply option Option A 1 Convoy point Italian Coast All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia Option B With Limited Overseas Supply option 1 convoy point each in Italian Coast, East Med All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/13/2009 2:58:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gurggulk Italian Naval Deployment Without Limited Overseas Supply option Option A 1 Convoy point Italian Coast All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia Option B With Limited Overseas Supply option 1 convoy point each in Italian Coast, East Med All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia I want to thank you for these. This is one of the things that Peter is currently working on for the AIO.

Gurggulk -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/13/2009 8:45:30 AM)
Thanks Shannon, Doing these setups are helping me to reaquaint myself with the game. Which is a good thing. [8D] With all the people adding their preferences, it should make for a strong choice of options for the AI. At least the setup should not be to predictable.

Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/13/2009 12:15:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gurggulk Italian Naval Deployment Without Limited Overseas Supply option Option A 1 Convoy point Italian Coast All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia Option B With Limited Overseas Supply option 1 convoy point each in Italian Coast, East Med All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia Initialy Italy is neutral, and can hope to stay so at least for 4 turns. In that case, I would suggest that reserve CP (5) and TRS (2) be spread out between Major Ports of Italy, such as La Spezia, Trieste, Tarente, and maybe Naples. The reason is Italian navy is initialy vulnerable to surprise port attack from CW forces, and avoiding having both TRS and all reserve CP in the same port seems wise to me. Moreover, neutral ships sail one by one (limited by the Combined action naval limits, which is 1 for Italy), so the TRS and or CP can only sail alone. To prevent nasty surprises from blockading enemy ships later when war comes, I'd advise having 2-3 cruisers setup with each of the spread out TRS & CP.

morgil -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/13/2009 12:17:02 PM)
Just read through this old thread and got a few pointers... In the start of the game, Italy should focus on defending against a French or CW DOW, that would enable them to put 4 corps into Italy or Albania. This is easily done with a unit in Tirana, Palermo/Syracuse and stuffing the rest on the French border. Imagine youre going for an early Greece with Italy, only to have the french walk across the border, align Yougoslavia, and then knock out Vienna, Bratislava and Trieste just for fun. Heavily on the French border will also divert French units from the front against Germany. Watching the US entry, should give you a good inclination on when its "safe" to send a TRS to pick up your units i Ethiopia, but only send one at the time, as the brits are known to gamble over such a sweet prize. As Italy you would want to join the fun asap, for the brotherly love from Germany, but you would want to delay it as much as possible to avoid the tougher "love" of the CW fleet, and US entry. If the WAllies make obvious mistakes, like undefended french border, Malta and/or Gibraltar, you hop to it regardless of the Senates mumblings. You would also very much like to align Yougoslavia youreself, by taking out Greece, but I'm not sure that the benefits to that outweighs the downsides. Consider US entering the war, and going for a quick kill of Italy, they will accieve it. Then they look at the map, all the invasion forces available is in Italian Coast, and umm the dragon has more soft underbelly, that leads to Bulgaria, and 3 more hexes to the oilfields in Romania. It is usually better to just kill of Price Paul right away.

brian brian -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/13/2009 4:37:26 PM)
I like the Italian option of breaking down the MTN corps on set up to generate a 2-3 MTN division for improved landing forces to begin a campaign against Algeria, or the Eastern Med. There is a lot to be gained by an early Italian DoW. But then staying neutral and keeping the high-value 1939 USE chits from being pulled is also smart. The Allies have these same choices of course. I have never been able to decide how to set-up the Italian navy in anticipation of Allied port strikes. All together in one port raises the target profile a lot, especially with the CLs in play. Lately I have settled on the two TRS together with the 9 best AA ships in one port, and all the rest of the ships in another. As the target profile goes up, the AA value on a surprise impulse does not increase in columns on the naval tables very well, due to the 1/2 value on surprise.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/13/2009 6:03:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: morgil Just read through this old thread and got a few pointers... In the start of the game, Italy should focus on defending against a French or CW DOW, that would enable them to put 4 corps into Italy or Albania. This is easily done with a unit in Tirana, Palermo/Syracuse and stuffing the rest on the French border. Imagine youre going for an early Greece with Italy, only to have the french walk across the border, align Yougoslavia, and then knock out Vienna, Bratislava and Trieste just for fun. Heavily on the French border will also divert French units from the front against Germany. Watching the US entry, should give you a good inclination on when its "safe" to send a TRS to pick up your units i Ethiopia, but only send one at the time, as the brits are known to gamble over such a sweet prize. As Italy you would want to join the fun asap, for the brotherly love from Germany, but you would want to delay it as much as possible to avoid the tougher "love" of the CW fleet, and US entry. If the WAllies make obvious mistakes, like undefended french border, Malta and/or Gibraltar, you hop to it regardless of the Senates mumblings. You would also very much like to align Yougoslavia youreself, by taking out Greece, but I'm not sure that the benefits to that outweighs the downsides. Consider US entering the war, and going for a quick kill of Italy, they will accieve it. Then they look at the map, all the invasion forces available is in Italian Coast, and umm the dragon has more soft underbelly, that leads to Bulgaria, and 3 more hexes to the oilfields in Romania. It is usually better to just kill of Price Paul right away. As the German player there is nothing I would rather see than France committing 6 or so land units to the Italian front. If things got desperate for Italy, I'd just rail move a garrison (or two) into Milan and let France chew on those for a while. I had this discussion recently with Peter about setting up the French units, and I am quite firm in my opinion that France should look to its own defenses first. Once Paris falls, all those French units in Italy will go away. Now if Germany attacks the USSR in 1939, that's another story, ...

Orm -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/13/2009 9:10:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets quote: ORIGINAL: morgil Just read through this old thread and got a few pointers... In the start of the game, Italy should focus on defending against a French or CW DOW, that would enable them to put 4 corps into Italy or Albania. This is easily done with a unit in Tirana, Palermo/Syracuse and stuffing the rest on the French border. Imagine youre going for an early Greece with Italy, only to have the french walk across the border, align Yougoslavia, and then knock out Vienna, Bratislava and Trieste just for fun. Heavily on the French border will also divert French units from the front against Germany. Watching the US entry, should give you a good inclination on when its "safe" to send a TRS to pick up your units i Ethiopia, but only send one at the time, as the brits are known to gamble over such a sweet prize. As Italy you would want to join the fun asap, for the brotherly love from Germany, but you would want to delay it as much as possible to avoid the tougher "love" of the CW fleet, and US entry. If the WAllies make obvious mistakes, like undefended french border, Malta and/or Gibraltar, you hop to it regardless of the Senates mumblings. You would also very much like to align Yougoslavia youreself, by taking out Greece, but I'm not sure that the benefits to that outweighs the downsides. Consider US entering the war, and going for a quick kill of Italy, they will accieve it. Then they look at the map, all the invasion forces available is in Italian Coast, and umm the dragon has more soft underbelly, that leads to Bulgaria, and 3 more hexes to the oilfields in Romania. It is usually better to just kill of Price Paul right away. As the German player there is nothing I would rather see than France committing 6 or so land units to the Italian front. If things got desperate for Italy, I'd just rail move a garrison (or two) into Milan and let France chew on those for a while. I had this discussion recently with Peter about setting up the French units, and I am quite firm in my opinion that France should look to its own defenses first. Once Paris falls, all those French units in Italy will go away. Now if Germany attacks the USSR in 1939, that's another story, ... As Germany I have on a few occasions when France lightly defended the Italian border ordered Italy to attack into France. Germany then reinforces the attack. With the mountain line breached you can begin the move towards Paris from the south. I have even captured Paris from the south when the German main offencive was stopped. If the mountain line is breached early Germany/Italy has alot easier to conquer France if they prefer than over Vichy.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/13/2009 10:25:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets quote: ORIGINAL: morgil Just read through this old thread and got a few pointers... In the start of the game, Italy should focus on defending against a French or CW DOW, that would enable them to put 4 corps into Italy or Albania. This is easily done with a unit in Tirana, Palermo/Syracuse and stuffing the rest on the French border. Imagine youre going for an early Greece with Italy, only to have the french walk across the border, align Yougoslavia, and then knock out Vienna, Bratislava and Trieste just for fun. Heavily on the French border will also divert French units from the front against Germany. Watching the US entry, should give you a good inclination on when its "safe" to send a TRS to pick up your units i Ethiopia, but only send one at the time, as the brits are known to gamble over such a sweet prize. As Italy you would want to join the fun asap, for the brotherly love from Germany, but you would want to delay it as much as possible to avoid the tougher "love" of the CW fleet, and US entry. If the WAllies make obvious mistakes, like undefended french border, Malta and/or Gibraltar, you hop to it regardless of the Senates mumblings. You would also very much like to align Yougoslavia youreself, by taking out Greece, but I'm not sure that the benefits to that outweighs the downsides. Consider US entering the war, and going for a quick kill of Italy, they will accieve it. Then they look at the map, all the invasion forces available is in Italian Coast, and umm the dragon has more soft underbelly, that leads to Bulgaria, and 3 more hexes to the oilfields in Romania. It is usually better to just kill of Price Paul right away. As the German player there is nothing I would rather see than France committing 6 or so land units to the Italian front. If things got desperate for Italy, I'd just rail move a garrison (or two) into Milan and let France chew on those for a while. I had this discussion recently with Peter about setting up the French units, and I am quite firm in my opinion that France should look to its own defenses first. Once Paris falls, all those French units in Italy will go away. Now if Germany attacks the USSR in 1939, that's another story, ... As Germany I have on a few occasions when France lightly defended the Italian border ordered Italy to attack into France. Germany then reinforces the attack. With the mountain line breached you can begin the move towards Paris from the south. I have even captured Paris from the south when the German main offencive was stopped. If the mountain line is breached early Germany/Italy has alot easier to conquer France if they prefer than over Vichy. Oh, I agree that France has to defend the Italian border. What I do not agree with is putting sufficient French troops along the border to attack in the mountains on, say, 2 Italian corps defending the passes. The farther the French go into Italy, the farther they are from supporting the very serious attack by Germany through Belgium.

morgil -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/14/2009 4:06:19 PM)
Yes, France too should look at its defenses first, its very easy to have a mexican standoff at the French / Italian border, you need about 3 italian units, and 4 French, and its all peace and love. However, if Italy, setting up first, puts only one unit on the border, or two stacked, it should be in Frances interest to set up so they can get 4 corps inside Italy on the 4th impulse. Im not talking fighting here, but a walk to first base. If Italy reinforces the border before that, just shuffle the troops north again. France would not make much hayway inside Italy, but it would be extremely annoying for the Axis, with Yugo troops running rampant, blocking the Bremmer pass, conquering Albania, burning the factory in Trieste, turning Vichy... So Italy is best served by definately going for defence in the first few turns, and if they can defend while pressuring France to defend in the south aswell, all the merrier.

Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/14/2009 4:24:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets Oh, I agree that France has to defend the Italian border. What I do not agree with is putting sufficient French troops along the border to attack in the mountains on, say, 2 Italian corps defending the passes. The farther the French go into Italy, the farther they are from supporting the very serious attack by Germany through Belgium. 2 French units are enough. - One SE of Lyons. I like to put the 3-5 CAV here. - One in Nice. The MTN usualy. Both these units impose ZoC to oozing Italian units who will progress very slowly and won't be able to go very far without killing at least one of them. By the time they suceed, the Germans are usually near Paris, and the main French lines in the north have fallen back to the Seine and Vichy anyway, so the Italian progression will have been useless. I don't say that Italians can't achieve something, but that usually they don't. 3 is better (the third being in the central Alps pass W of the Italian RP), but 3 is one less to fight the Germans. If a poor TERR can be spared from the colonies, it is good here. Normaly Marseille have a light garrison too, to prevent Italians invasions. Never setup the northern units in the hex NW of Turin, as an advance through the alpine hex by the Italian MTN would put it oos.

brian brian -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/14/2009 5:38:26 PM)
it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack.

Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/14/2009 7:24:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack. Good idea. But... heu... are you sure you can breakdown the CAV ? It has 3 combat factors, so the sum of both broken down DIV have to be less than 1.5.

lomyrin -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/14/2009 7:29:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack. Good idea. But... heu... are you sure you can breakdown the CAV ? It has 3 combat factors, so the sum of both broken down DIV have to be less than 1.5. As of now MWiF rounds that 1.5 up to 2. CiF did the same. The RAW example also says round up on the fraction. When recombining on the other hand it rounds down - a 2 factor and a 4 factor can only become an 11 factor corps. This difference may be a problem with MWiF when both Div's have been killed and the game should replace the source Corps into the general forcepool again. Lars

paulderynck -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/14/2009 7:55:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lomyrin quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack. Good idea. But... heu... are you sure you can breakdown the CAV ? It has 3 combat factors, so the sum of both broken down DIV have to be less than 1.5. As of now MWiF rounds that 1.5 up to 2. CiF did the same. The RAW example also says round up on the fraction. When recombining on the other hand it rounds down - a 2 factor and a 4 factor can only become an 11 factor corps. This difference may be a problem with MWiF when both Div's have been killed and the game should replace the source Corps into the general forcepool again. Lars Another often-overlooked item with recombining is that you need a Motorized div - an Inf Div won't do - except to make an Inf Corps.

Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/14/2009 8:03:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lomyrin quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack. Good idea. But... heu... are you sure you can breakdown the CAV ? It has 3 combat factors, so the sum of both broken down DIV have to be less than 1.5. As of now MWiF rounds that 1.5 up to 2. CiF did the same. The RAW example also says round up on the fraction. When recombining on the other hand it rounds down - a 2 factor and a 4 factor can only become an 11 factor corps. This difference may be a problem with MWiF when both Div's have been killed and the game should replace the source Corps into the general forcepool again. Lars And that's right. RAW 22.4.1 says : ********************* When you break down a corps or army, you can select any divisions from your force pools but their total combat factors can�t exceed half (rounding up) those of the corps or army you break down. ********************* So the 3-5 CAV can break down into a DIV CAV and a MOT or INF DIV, both with 1 combat factors.

brian brian -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/15/2009 12:15:06 AM)
The CAV or the MOT are the only two units that can break down, as the French don't have an extra Infantry division available, and I can't remember if they have a second motorised division in 1939 either? You can't break it down and set up two divisions in two separate hexes, but you have one move before the Italians could possibly DoW. But also if you try this, one of the front-line border hexes will only be defended by 2 factors, a total even Italy can defeat, and the oozing begins; so I like to strengthen the border later, before the sun comes out in 1940; basically I like to trade out a unit and incorporate the Lyon MIL in to the southern defenses after the danger of a France First attack from Germany has passed, so if it is a casualty it reappears right near the same front. Italy might not be able to reach Paris, but anything they tie down in the south makes it easier in the north, and if they can gain that first hex across the border the French line only gets longer and longer, especially if the Germans wisely send in some 4 movement point INF. They might also have a chance to tangle with the Wavell HQ far from very much British aircover. If the Italians are going in to France, one of the best things they can do is put a pilot in the BA 65 LND-2 plane that starts in the reserve pool. But this is the Italian thread ... earlier this year I had been daydreaming about a neutral Italy attacking Greece on it's own, before being at war with the west. Until I realized the heavy downsides ... the CW would have an easy time of landing four corps, probably generating a US Entry chit, and aligning Yugoslavia as well.

morgil -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (7/21/2009 5:54:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian earlier this year I had been daydreaming about a neutral Italy attacking Greece on it's own, before being at war with the west. Until I realized the heavy downsides ... the CW would have an easy time of landing four corps, probably generating a US Entry chit, and aligning Yugoslavia as well. Quite so. IMO, Italy should start the war doing what Italy does best, make pasta, serve the other players. Wait for signs of weakness or stupid mistakes, then pounce like a kitten on any suitable targets, and try to gain as much of North Africa as possible.

peskpesk -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 6:41:58 PM)
As I promised Steve to go through all the forums post of all AI for MWiF � XXX, here is the result for Italy. Some good suggestions from forum members. I have now compiled it to define 6 possible starting convoy routes for the Italian, from which the AIO will chose from. As always if you have any comments about these convoy routes, we would love to hear them. If nothing else, you could help us decide on their probabilities. ################################################################ Italian Convoys plans/routes Global war Route 1: Sardinia (Standard). Route is used to get home Sardinia. Keeps a low risk profile against sudden Allied declaration of war. 6 CP in reserve. Route 2: Sardinia and Libya. Route is used to get home Sardinia. Keeps a moderate profile against sudden Allied declaration of war but also keeps the vital supply line to Libya open. 5 CP in reserves. Might be useful if planning to go against Commonwealth early in the game. Route 3: Sardinia, Libya and Italian East Africa. Route is used to get home Sardinia. Keeps a high profile against sudden Allied declaration of war but also keeps the vital supply line to Libya open and the supply to Italian East Africa. Might be useful if planning to bring the Italian INF home from East Africa. 4 CP in reserve. Route 4: Sardinia and North Africa. Route is used to get home Sardinia. Keeps a high profile against sudden Allied declaration of war but also keeps the vital supply line to Libya open from two sea areas. 4 CP in reserve. Route 5: None. Keeps a zero risk profile against sudden Allied declaration of war. The plan is to later in the turn to go out with at least 1 CP to get home Sardinia. 7 CP in reserve. Route 6: West Africa. Route is used to get home Sardinia .Keeps a low risk profile against sudden Allied declaration of war but also keeps a little of the vital supply line to Libya open. 6 CP in reserve. Might be useful if planning to go against France early in the game. Base Convoy Deployment % Route 1 35% Route 2 25% Route 3 5% Route 4 5% Route 5 25% Route 6 5% Optional rules that might affect Convoy Deployment % � In the presence of the enemy � Limited Overseas Supply � Rough Seas � Convoys In Flame � Oil tankers � Cruisers in flames

peskpesk -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 6:43:08 PM)
Route 1: Sardinia (Standard). [image]local://upfiles/9545/48DD9E116EBC44CB847E10AF7B730F57.jpg[/image]

peskpesk -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 6:44:27 PM)
Route 2: Sardinia and Libya. [image]local://upfiles/9545/B85A9D91523B47088726C827CB3F0B7F.jpg[/image]

peskpesk -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 6:44:55 PM)
Route 3: Sardinia, Libya and Italian East Africa. [image]local://upfiles/9545/DD74B4DB0E0149798A7F8AB5EE2FA445.jpg[/image]

peskpesk -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 6:45:23 PM)
Route 4: Sardinia and North Africa. [image]local://upfiles/9545/0268AD2CE4B8408EA323833C90456CD0.jpg[/image]

peskpesk -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 6:45:47 PM)
Route 5: None. [image]local://upfiles/9545/D772034E59C5437D8CE2D5984FDBF262.jpg[/image]

peskpesk -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 6:46:14 PM)
Route 6: West Africa. [image]local://upfiles/9545/72226D1A995F4C70AD229D3EADB75F60.jpg[/image]

brian brian -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 7:15:22 PM)
note that on the first two turns, Italy might not actually need the resource from Sardinia. 50% of 3 Production Points creates 2 Build Points just the same as 50% of 4 Production Points. One more excellent detail I would have never realized if Patrice hadn't pointed that out on here once. Now that is assuming Italy will save the Rumanian oil on the first two turns. If Italy wants to use that in production to get 5 Production Points and 3 Build Points on the first turn for interesting builds like laying down a new AMPH, then they will need the Sardinian resource. I think the AI should pick out Italy's first turn strategy, and THEN select a convoy deployment to match.

MajorDude -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 7:23:50 PM)
Cool! [:)] My ideas: Base Convoy Deployment % Route 1 30 % instead of 35% Reason: Africa must be supported. Route 2 30% instead of 25%� Reason: Africa must be supported. Route 3 10% instead of 5%�� Reason: Italian African campaign with long-term goals and possible Japanese hookup with help from Germany for taking Suez Canal area. Route 4 10% instead of 5%�� Reason: Conservative Italian Med convoy network. Route 5 15% instead of 25%� Reason: Not necessarily in Italy's best interests to not have any convoys deployed imo, although it does add a bit of 'poker bluff' and flexibility to Italy's intentions and goals. Route 6 5% Fine as is. Just a few thoughts... [8D]

Orm -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 7:54:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian note that on the first two turns, Italy might not actually need the resource from Sardinia. 50% of 3 Production Points creates 2 Build Points just the same as 50% of 4 Production Points. One more excellent detail I would have never realized if Patrice hadn't pointed that out on here once. Now that is assuming Italy will save the Rumanian oil on the first two turns. If Italy wants to use that in production to get 5 Production Points and 3 Build Points on the first turn for interesting builds like laying down a new AMPH, then they will need the Sardinian resource. I think the AI should pick out Italy's first turn strategy, and THEN select a convoy deployment to match. As I get it the strategy will modify the probability of the convoy route picked. If the strategy only decided on the convoy route used you would know what strategy the Italian AI would use just by looking at its convoy setup.

Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 8:25:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: peskpesk Base Convoy Deployment % Route 1 35% Route 2 25% Route 3 5% Route 4 5% Route 5 25% Route 6 5% Looks good. Though I would decrease Route 5 to as low as 5%, and increase Route 6 (which is as good, even better, than Route 1 as it supplies Tripoli plus takes the Sardinia resource with only 1 CP) to as much as 25%.

MajorDude -> RE: AI for MWiF-Italy (8/10/2009 8:42:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp ... I would decrease Route 5 to as low as 5%, and increase Route 6 (which is as good, even better, than Route 1 as it supplies Tripoli plus takes the Sardinia resource with only 1 CP) to as much as 25%. After a second look, I would tend to agree with your comments on Route 6, though I would not reduce Route 5 to 5%. Giving it 10% or 15% could give a little more flexibility to AI Italy. [8D]

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