RE: Has anybody here been to Yakusuni Shrine in Tokyo? (Full Version)

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TulliusDetritus -> RE: Has anybody here been to Yakusuni Shrine in Tokyo? (11/26/2005 2:46:10 AM)

ChezDaJez

“Any nation engaging in war often has its soldiers perform acts that can only be described as barbaric due to the raw emotions brought to the surface by war”

That’s correct. But this does not explain why the japanese armies (or german army for that matter) on WW1 and WW2 were totally different... The one that fought on WW1 may be described as an “army of gentlemen”. This is not an exageration or embellishment, but historically accurate. On the other hand, the one that fought on WW2, well, everyone knows it.

Why this difference? The answer is pretty simple. The one that fought on WW2 was the instrument of the japanese militarism. Agressive objectives => agressive tactics, strategy.

First of all, they had to prepare the japanese population... How? After WW1, on the 20’s, some so-called “philosophers” appeared and affirmed “Japan must be the master of Asia”. This of course meant a potential war against the european colonial powers (and maybe the USA).

How do you prepare the population? You have to use some “opiate”: “japanese nation and people are superior”, “europeans/americans are decadent”, “chinese are sub-humans”... Sounds familiar? Of course, Hitler did the same in Germany to prepare the german population for war. The ultimate goal: you must increase the self-confidence, an irrational feeling of superiority. In other words: propaganda at work. In fact, japanese were not even original. They merely copied the racist, imperialist european clichés...

The army (and recruits) who fought in China and then in the Pacific War were forced to swallow these “ideas” at school. Then you have a barbaric army. Why should we be surprised? Not me.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Has anybody here been to Yakusuni Shrine in Tokyo? (11/26/2005 3:19:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Attrocities -

The Nanking massacre has received much downplay in certain right wing Japanese circles. Japanese elements arn't denying it out wholesale but have tried to state that the numbers killed were very low. One Japanese author claimed that no more than 38,000 to 42,000 were killed.
A Chinese estimate was as high as 430,000 while IMTFE judges concluded a figure of around 260,000.



I never ceased to be amazed at humanity. The "best" excuse the Japanese right winger's can come up with is that their troops ONLY killed 42,000 innocent civilians at Nanking. Does that make it a "Second Degree Attrocity"? I supposed they also claim that because some of their POW's survived the war it proves that they never mis-treated any of them? And some folks will believe it..., the same way that some folks believe that 6 million Jews and 5.5 million other European "undesirables" all committed suicide
during WWII? Goebels was right about one thing. The bigger the lie, the bigger the batch of morons that will believe it.



ChezDaJez -> RE: Has anybody here been to Yakusuni Shrine in Tokyo? (11/26/2005 5:20:32 AM)

quote:

How do you prepare the population? You have to use some “opiate”: “japanese nation and people are superior”, “europeans/americans are decadent”, “chinese are sub-humans”... Sounds familiar? Of course, Hitler did the same in Germany to prepare the german population for war. The ultimate goal: you must increase the self-confidence, an irrational feeling of superiority. In other words: propaganda at work. In fact, japanese were not even original. They merely copied the racist, imperialist european clichés...

The army (and recruits) who fought in China and then in the Pacific War were forced to swallow these “ideas” at school. Then you have a barbaric army. Why should we be surprised? Not me.


Not disputing anything you said however Japanese feelings of superiority over its asian neighbors were in place well before WWI or II. Its what happens when you have a closed society. And, yes they did have some western role models to emulate but still no excuse.

The barbarism practised by the Japanese military during WWII should come as no surprise to anyone. It began within its own ranks. It wasn't just how they treated other people, it was how they treated their own. It has been well documented the treatment junior enlisted received at the hands of their superiors in the Japanese military. They were brutal. Recruits died in training with no questions asked. Obviously the recruit wasn't tough enough or he would have survived. When a nation has that level of brutality for its own people, is there any wonder that they would treat others differently?

And they weren't "forced" to swallow it at school, it began at home.

Either way, we are pretty far off track here.

Chez



ilovestrategy -> RE: Has anybody here been to Yakusuni Shrine in Tokyo? (11/26/2005 6:08:10 AM)

I'm starting to look for the little "lock" icon...



gunner333 -> RE: Has anybody here been to Yakusuni Shrine in Tokyo? (11/26/2005 12:30:35 PM)

Mr. TulliusDetritus

I am going to answer your questions:
in what planet are you living?

I am living on the same planet as you, in the democratic country. Where I have access to all kinds of information. Which is inpossible in countries with bloody commies regimes like China.

Did you know that in Germany you can't say "german atrocities were a big lie, exageration"?

I know it. And I am not saying such stupid things.

Ok, imagine this: the Iraqi government kidnaps thousands of ladies and says to the Pentagon: "your soldiers may 'use' them"... This would not be a rape?

This is just a flame. Read my post once more. Your question doesnt have any conection to it.

oh, and you didn't know that "WW2 revisionism" is basically a fascist doctrine?

No I didnt. What happends if I say that Soviets killed and raped 100thousands through process of liberating of Europe and its not good. What happeds than, you call me fashist. What happends if I say that Mao Tse-tung the victiom of Japanese invasion is just bloody buttcher who killed more than 100milions Chinese people. Is this a fashism too?

Why this difference? The answer is pretty simple. The one that fought on WW2 was the instrument of the japanese militarism. Agressive objectives => agressive tactics, strategy.
First of all, they had to prepare the japanese population... How? After WW1, on the 20’s, some so-called “philosophers” appeared and affirmed “Japan must be the master of Asia”. This of course meant a potential war against the european colonial powers (and maybe the USA).
How do you prepare the population? You have to use some “opiate”: “japanese nation and people are superior”, “europeans/americans are decadent”, “chinese are sub-humans”... Sounds familiar? Of course, Hitler did the same in Germany to prepare the german population for war. The ultimate goal: you must increase the self-confidence, an irrational feeling of superiority. In other words: propaganda at work. In fact, japanese were not even original. They merely copied the racist, imperialist european clichés...

All this is not true. And the most interesting thing is that all these crap(sorry, statements) is official Pekin's propaganda. Chinese are sub-human? Are you ok? Even the most hard-lined philosopher from the right wing Fukuzawa Yukichi never stated this. Japan never had superiority philosphy.
So here is my question, in what country do you live if you write all this sick commie's propaganda stuff. If you manage to escape from the world you now living at, found and read some books from the other side too. Because looking at this thread and seening some guys who writes "Yakusuni shrine"(its YASUKUNI shrine) gives me some doubts about how well these people informed about the object of discussion.



Brady -> RE: Has anybody here been to Yakusuni Shrine in Tokyo? (11/26/2005 7:28:19 PM)


Interesting thread, wish I had more time lately to follow such thing's. Thought I would interject this though:

Iris Chang's, I too read her book, actualy outload to a girlfriend of mine one summer a few years ago, I felt it was important for us both to understand and experance the happinings contained their in, me for obvious reasions, for her, so she could see the reasion I spent so much time devoted to the study of the subject at hand, it was not her cup of tea, but she was a good sport.

Iris Chang, I heard one day while driving in my car listing to NPR. was found dead in her car in Los Angilies (prety shure it said LA), aparently she had comitited sucide, this just this last year, ifrc. Very sad to see such a Brilient and well intened person come to such an end.






shoevarek -> RE: Has anybody here been to Yakusuni Shrine in Tokyo? (11/26/2005 9:17:03 PM)

I remember in one book by Ruth Benedict 'The Chrysantemum and The Sword' she explained japanese's attitude towards the war. She tried to explain what brought them to war, their attitude towards POW and their willingness to sacrifice their lifes. The war between Japan and US was the war between nations that belonged to different cuvilizations - that made it even more savage. Even today there is little understanding of attitudes on both sides.



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