RE: AA Command (Full Version)

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Hard Sarge -> RE: AA Command (11/14/2005 10:23:09 PM)

That was a simple test to see if 88/41 and or the twin 128mm guns worked

I put 100 88's and 55 128's at a radar site that was off the beaten track, removed all other guns that were there

I flew a raid of 100 + B-25's at 19,000 (a little higher) and the rest was one big B-17 raid also at 19,000

pretty much a normal alt raid

it was a decent test as it didn't draw any GE fighters, and all damage was by Flak guns

in real terms, that is one Heavy defended Radar site, those twins can only be places in critcal areas, so they would never show up at a Radar site, and the 88/41's are the good ones !

they were knocked down planes, 2 kills, 17 damaged, 4 kills, 26 damaged, 3 kills, 16 damaged

plus had tons and tons of crashes as they flew back home

but as a test it did show what we wanted to know, the guns that were added, work

maybe a little too well :)




otisabuser2 -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 2:12:30 AM)

Cheers HS,

think I was rather vague.

What I was wondering was, if you have old 88's and the new 88's does the game fire each battery at the bombers OR does it decide it's a high alt attack, and pick any convenient heavy battery ?

I think you may now be able to test this.

Have we had this site before? It's about German flak sites.

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german_aa/gaa20_german_antiaircraft_employment_guns.html

regards Otis



Ron Saueracker -> RE: BoB wish list (11/15/2005 4:08:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

Hi Ron,

On 1, I'm hoping this won't actually happen from now on as all but 3 of those scottish hydro dams were built SINCE the war. We should be looking for a better spread of POWER targets across the UK.

On 2, Yes I think there's scope for some more extra units IF we can include more plane types.

There are two FAA squadrons worthy of inclusion. One in Gladiators one in Fulmars ? ( need to re-check ).

Don't recall any Bomber Command units. Are there any to consider ?

There were three Coastal Command units, attached to FC for shipping escort duties. The issue with these is that they had Blenheim dayfighters. So another aircraft type, but one that I suspect may be of little actual use ?

Tell me what you think.

Point 3, Coastal shipping. The convoys through the Channel we all but finished by game start ( Aug 13th ). The Germans did spend a considerable effort still on shipping recon, minelaying and so on.

Would like to factor in warship flak into naval bases.

regards Otisabsuer


My library is all packed up for my move but there are lots of internet sources. Here is one and it list 804 and 808 squadrons which operated Gladiators, Fulmars and Martlets during the BoB. I'll see If I can access the right boxes and find the books I have...some great sources.



Nikademus -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 5:53:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

That was a simple test to see if 88/41 and or the twin 128mm guns worked

I put 100 88's and 55 128's at a radar site that was off the beaten track, removed all other guns that were there

I flew a raid of 100 + B-25's at 19,000 (a little higher) and the rest was one big B-17 raid also at 19,000

pretty much a normal alt raid

it was a decent test as it didn't draw any GE fighters, and all damage was by Flak guns

in real terms, that is one Heavy defended Radar site, those twins can only be places in critcal areas, so they would never show up at a Radar site, and the 88/41's are the good ones !

they were knocked down planes, 2 kills, 17 damaged, 4 kills, 26 damaged, 3 kills, 16 damaged

plus had tons and tons of crashes as they flew back home

but as a test it did show what we wanted to know, the guns that were added, work

maybe a little too well :)




oh yes.....i know they work. I had previously set up some test scenarios using BTR to observe 88 and 105mm AA gun at certain altitudes. Ouch was the word. [:D]

oh yeah...then there was that unfortunate little sweep i tried on Speedy using P47's........



Hard Sarge -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 1:11:31 PM)

OB
well, with out some kind of Message being sent, I don't know how we could really test a site using 88/88-41's and see if both were fireing or not



otisabuser2 -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 2:01:02 PM)

Hi HS,

quote:

OB
well, with out some kind of Message being sent, I don't know how we could really test a site using 88/88-41's and see if both were fireing or not


Would you be able to ask the guys doing the code this one ?

Two reasons spring to mind. Firstly in BTR the game starts with 88 at a site. Is it worth me adding more heavies of a different kind, or ought I just add bulk standard 88 there for effect.

Secondly, to judge whether it is worthwhile adding such refinements to BoB.

regards Otis



Nikademus -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 4:34:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

OB
well, with out some kind of Message being sent, I don't know how we could really test a site using 88/88-41's and see if both were fireing or not


why not just place only that weapon type at the target site and launch an attack?



otisabuser2 -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 8:03:15 PM)

quote:

why not just place only that weapon type at the target site and launch an attack?


I'm open to ideas Nik.

How will having only ONE weapon type there test if both types fire when there are TWO types there ?

regards Otis



Nikademus -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 9:51:49 PM)

I guess i'm not understanding the problem correctly. (which can certainly happen when your at work sneaking a quick skimming peek at a thread hoping the boss don't come over and go "Hey Nik...can you look at th_ SAAAAAYYYYYY whats that you got up on your computer screen?"

"uh.....research on behalf of a customer?" [:D]

Idea -

How about first testing one or both guns indiv with the same attack force (numbers and height) then run another test with both guns and see if there's an noticable difference in the flak results?




Hard Sarge -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 10:41:40 PM)

okay how is this
same plane types, same target

50 88/41 nothing else

2nd mission, same rules but
50 88/41
50 88



[image]local://upfiles/1438/187F78059F3D4119A9559BABA777BC79.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 10:42:36 PM)

2nd mission
odd, damage over target was not as bad, but the flight home was murder



[image]local://upfiles/1438/B8197301B6DD4E678C2FC609206713A2.jpg[/image]



HMSWarspite -> RE: AA Command (11/15/2005 11:31:52 PM)

Problem with one off tests is we don't know the degree of random variation. Faster to look at the code I think. Or do the test 10 times and look at the results. Then do 10 more etc!



otisabuser2 -> Pilot nationalities (11/29/2005 12:19:27 AM)

Just remembered.

Would like to have the pilot nationalities displayed correctly in the CW units. We have Canadians, Australians, S Africans etc in the RAF units, but all get overwritten as British. Similarly We have British pilots in Polish units who get overwritten as Poles.

The pilot list is something like 80% historical on the RAF side and a flag is in there for nations, but ignored/overwritten. Shame [:(]

regards Otis



otisabuser2 -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 12:56:18 AM)

Another issue. The plane strength of RAF units is fixed in game to 15/16 planes. This should actually be approx 22/24 aircraft.

Curiously, this would work both ways. It would mean the RAF have more chance of launching a 12 plane squadron, pilots permitting.

Conversly, the LW will have more chance of destroying RAF fighters on the ground.

regards Rob



Odin -> RE: BoB wish list (12/3/2005 1:10:01 AM)

I want to have an editor for Bob, to create my own units and aircraft[:D]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 1:17:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

Another issue. The plane strength of RAF units is fixed in game to 15/16 planes. This should actually be approx 22/24 aircraft.

Curiously, this would work both ways. It would mean the RAF have more chance of launching a 12 plane squadron, pilots permitting.

Conversly, the LW will have more chance of destroying RAF fighters on the ground.

regards Rob


not so sure OB
most of the reading I been doing the last few weeks are all stating the 16 plane squadron

Plus DBS is saying all though the war, the FC squadron size should be 16 ????




otisabuser2 -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 1:54:30 AM)

quote:

Original:HARDSarge

Plus DBS is saying all though the war, the FC squadron size should be 16 ????



Did he ? I thought he said....

quote:

DBS said:

Ever since 1940, the aim of an RAF fighter squadron was to try to generate 12-16 aircraft for any squadron sized task. As more aircraft and pilots became available, reserves of both would be increased.


A Squadron would have more aircraft than it intended to use at once, because some were always being repaired or in maintenance.

I'm about to leave work now ( in my own time ), but will try and post some figures tomorrow morning.

regards Rob



Hard Sarge -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 5:10:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

Another issue. The plane strength of RAF units is fixed in game to 15/16 planes. This should actually be approx 22/24 aircraft.

Curiously, this would work both ways. It would mean the RAF have more chance of launching a 12 plane squadron, pilots permitting.

Conversly, the LW will have more chance of destroying RAF fighters on the ground.

regards Rob


not so sure OB
most of the reading I been doing the last few weeks are all stating the 16 plane squadron

Plus DBS is saying all though the war, the FC squadron size should be 16 ????




okay, again
what is your point
in BoB, the squadron size looks to be up to 24 planes, most squadrons have 23 or more pilots, 12 are ready to fly, and 12 are being repaired or on standby

DBS says the idea was to have at least 12 to 16 planes ready to fly a mission each day, so far, everything seems to be matching what he says

what is it you think we should have ?

since you are talking about the LW having a better chance of killing planes on the ground, I took it to mean BoB ?

in BTR we have a 24 +3 set up, should that be lowered to more like the 15th AF squadron size



[image]local://upfiles/1438/03EF08E346AF42B1AE0147476B29DFBC.jpg[/image]



otisabuser2 -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 12:39:01 PM)

On the first turn, as your display shows, the full strength units have 22-24 planes ( 12 + reserves ). This is all well and good.

As losses occur this drops to a max of 16 aircraft. Never more. Here's the clarrification from the BoB 1.02 readme file.

quote:

(6) Aircraft Replacements
An RAF unit will only receive replacement aircraft when its total number of aircraft dips
below 16. So, for example, if a Spitfire I unit has 5 available aircraft and 11 others
divided between the various other states (i.e., refueling, in transit, etc.) this unit will
not receive any additional aircraft until its total number is reduced below 16.


This IS what actually happens in game.




Hard Sarge -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 5:41:22 PM)

isn't that the whole point of the battle ?

the programmers already give the GB, over strength Squadrons at start, and a over strength stockpile of planes, along with a overstock pilot base

what more do you want ?

you really got to take some heavy losses to get down below 16 planes in each squadron




otisabuser2 -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 7:07:34 PM)

quote:

the programmers already give the GB, over strength Squadrons at start, and a over strength stockpile of planes, along with a overstock pilot base

what more do you want ?

you really got to take some heavy losses to get down below 16 planes in each squadron


Erm.... You are pulling my leg, I beleive. Even in your list 5 units are already at or under this level.

We are talking plane strengths here, not pilot strengths. If a pilot bails out, wounded or not the plane is lost. If it remains on the ground and destroyed in a straffe, it is lost. 22 planes down to 16 is a loss of only 6 planes!

The point of the game is to reduce the strength of the RAF by legitimate means. Not to fix the readiness levels of Fighter Command to below historical levels to cludge a LW win.

reagrds Otisabuser



Hard Sarge -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 7:38:40 PM)

And again
what is your point, what do you want to change ?

you say the squadrons should have 16 planes, most have more then 16 planes

you say once they take losses, they stop at 16 planes when they rebuild, well that is still 16 planes

you have a stockpile of 150 planes before the battle even starts

what do you think needs to be done ?

you got more planes, more pilots and more stockpile then the GB did in the battle, what needs to be fixed to make the game correct




otisabuser2 -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 7:57:26 PM)

quote:

original: HS

And again
what is your point, what do you want to change ?


I stated this at the start

quote:

original: OB

Another issue. The plane strength of RAF units is fixed in game to 15/16 planes. This should actually be approx 22/24 aircraft.




quote:

original: HS

you say the squadrons should have 16 planes, most have more then 16 planes

you say once they take losses, they stop at 16 planes when they rebuild, well that is still 16 planes


......no 22. They should have 22 planes, but they only rebuild to 16. That is mostly wrong.

quote:

you got more planes, more pilots and more stockpile then the GB did in the battle, what needs to be fixed to make the game correct


I'm confused by this statement. How many MORE extra planes and pilots do you think we have, vs the historical levels at game start ? I think me and you are reading different books. [:)]



Prussia -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 9:53:53 PM)



quote:

So, for example, if a Spitfire I unit has 5 available aircraft and 11 others
divided between the various other states (i.e., refueling, in transit, etc.) this unit will
not receive any additional aircraft until its total number is reduced below 16.


I think a clarification is in order here- given the above posit, of course no one is going to receive any new aircraft, for you are in the middle of the combat phase. Fueling, transit, and the other states implied here happen only in the combat phase, not the admin phases. Replacements are added/received during the admin phases only. During combat, pilots slash planes will progress through the states, till all undamaged aircraft are once again available for action. So I don't know who wrote this, I imagine their intent was to be helpful, for they are 100% correct in what they are stating for the first part of the statement, but it's 100% wrong, and a combination of several different things in the second part of the statement. Basically, half of that statement deals with readiness for combat, and the other half to replacements, and they essentially have nothing to do with each other. I'll look into the BOB replacement system, and let you know what is going on.

I hope that helps,

Jean-Claude



Hard Sarge -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 10:53:34 PM)

quote:

I'm confused by this statement. How many MORE extra planes and pilots do you think we have, vs the historical levels at game start ? I think me and you are reading different books.


from what I see, at the start of this game (game starts may be different)

I have 730 ready planes
I have 476 unready planes
plus I have 152 replacement planes in the stockpile

that is 1358 planes

none of the books I have read stated anywhere near that number

if I had the editor we got for BTR, I could give you a total of pilots, but in BoB we have to open each squadron, so only looked at a few, but most of the ones I looked at had 23 to 26 pilots

so basicly, you have double strength squadrons (12 planes) and double strength Pilot rosters, not counting the stockpile




Prussia -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/3/2005 11:17:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I have 730 ready planes
I have 476 unready planes
plus I have 152 replacement planes in the stockpile

that is 1358 planes

none of the books I have read stated anywhere near that number


I can fix that.

Jean-Claude



otisabuser2 -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/4/2005 2:04:21 AM)

quote:

original: HS

you got more planes, more pilots and more stockpile then the GB did in the battle, what needs to be fixed to make the game correct


quote:

original: HS

but in BoB we have to open each squadron, so only looked at a few,


Now I've lost the point. You state that the total number of RAF pilots is MORE than the historical level, but you have no idea how many are actually in the game ? Curious.[;)]

quote:

original:HS

I have 730 ready planes
I have 476 unready planes
plus I have 152 replacement planes in the stockpile


It may help us if we can determine which of these three figures you think is incorrect. 700 odd ready planes sounds about right to me.







Hard Sarge -> RE: Pilot nationalities (12/4/2005 6:36:22 AM)

quote:

It may help us if we can determine which of these three figures you think is incorrect. 700 odd ready planes sounds about right to me.


yes, at 12 planes a Squadron, 733 looks good (a little strong, but not here to split hairs)

(thinking 12 ready, 4 in reserve)

at 16 planes a Squadron, we looking at 1040 ready planes

(thinking 16 ready, 3-4 in reserve)

740 was the most ready the GB had during the battle

for the pilots, after takeing the time to open 30 of the squadrons to see how many pilots they had, I kind of figured I had got what I wanted, as I doubted that the other 35 squadrons would only have 8

also, what we want, is to get the pilot Data base set up, so we get the right numbers into the squadrons, 310 has shown 37 pilots and also has shown 31, while 312 is light

which just in case, if you remember my other posts, I also want the GE pilots fixed, some JG's have 48 pilots and some have 20



otisabuser2 -> Ready planes and pilots (12/4/2005 1:43:53 PM)

It may help us both here if we define the terms we are using.

Ready aircraft in the game is not a total of how many servicable planes there are. It's a total of how many servicable planes there are with a pilot assigned to fly in it. The max number ( bug permitting ) that fly is 12 plane units. So a Squadron will never add more than 12 ready to the total, regardless of how many servicable planes it actually has.

quote:

original:HS

740 was the most ready the GB had during the battle


These I beleive are FC figures, which are calculated in much the same way. This is the totals of the ready planes each Squadron says it can put up for the morning. This is also generally a maximum of 12 ( official Sqn size though clearly in some documented cases units actually did better than their quotes ). So again this is not a total of servicable planes, though these figures are often labelled as such.

Whatever figures we look at, we also need to bear in mind that there are 7-8 non-operational RAF Squadrons given to us at game start. Three of them ( 306,307 and 312 ) are entirely computer generated named pilots. Some of the others are incorrect because although many Poles say went through 303 Sqn at some stage, they often actually flew and fought with other FC units.

I posted some better lists over on the JCL BTR forum. I was working on a better list for the whole of FC. I was also pushing for better LW lists ( at least for the JG and ZG ).

quote:

original:HS

for the pilots, after takeing the time to open 30 of the squadrons to see how many pilots they had, I kind of figured I had got what I wanted, as I doubted that the other 35 squadrons would only have 8


You state that there are too many pilots in RAF at the game start. How many are you expecting ? Dip sampling a few units is not helpful because the database adds computer gen guys to various Sqns, but works differently each time.

So yes, though some units may have around 30 pilots, look also in these ones:

312 Sqn has 13 to 16 comp gen pilots

306 Sqn has 12 to 13 cg pilots

232 Sqn has 8 real life pilots

247 Sqn has 6 real life pilots.

......the last two were actually flights but named Sqns.

To lay my cards on the table.

I am expecting there to be around 1400 pilots at game start.

I am expecting a full strength unit ( many in game should not be ) to have 22 planes.

152 planes in the stockpile is actually LOWER than on 13th August in real life. Figures for week ending 10th August 1940 for aircraft held in Aircraft Storage Units is 160 Hurricanes PLUS 129 Spitfires. This is week at near the peak for reserve totals for FC ( ie after the losses of the Battle of France are made good, but before the BoB actually gets rough ).

If you have different figures, it may help to post them, so we can discuss the differences.

regards Otisabuser




DBS -> RE: Ready planes and pilots (12/5/2005 2:49:48 PM)

And to really confuse things...

In June/July 1940, Fighter Command had a healthy surplus of Hurricanes and Spitfires becoming available. It really wanted to form additional squadrons. But, except for the Canadians, Poles and Czechs who were forming at that stage, there were not enough additional trained pilots coming on stream to form these squadrons. So all of the Hurricane squadrons, and something like half a dozen of the Spitfire squadrons (need to look up the precise figure) were given an extra four aircraft each, but without aircrew. The idea was to increase the in-unit resilience after damage, as well as giving rides to those aircrew within the squadron normally assumed to be on leave or under training, so that they could fly in extremis.

One difficult issue we need to think about are the RAF Maintenance Units - unglamorous but as critical to the battle as anyone. The RAF were paranoid about these specialised airfields getting bombed, because that was where so many of the spare aircraft were sitting ready for overnight distribution to operational squadrons as necessary. Making them (and the aircraft pools) targetable would however probably be a gameplay killer, unless dispersion rules limited the number that the Luftwaffe could take out in a single raid.

David



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