RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (Full Version)

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jwilkerson -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 5:40:47 PM)

quote:

As it was, it was simply way undergunned even when upgraded to two 12.7mms


Before we get too excited about Oscar being armed with two 12.7mm .. please read the following uberly researched article, which argues that most Oscars were "upgraded to" or had mixed armament ( 1x7.7.mm machine gun and 1x12.7mm machine cannon ) thus - indicating a further reduction in firepower.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/nakajima_ki43arm.htm



rtrapasso -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 5:43:04 PM)

IIRC, a couple of top US aces were killed when trying to engage Oscars (usually involved trying to do aerobatics and low altitudes, stalls, and fatal crashes). So, the Oscars could just (literally) maneuver you to death!



Nikademus -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 5:52:11 PM)

Yes, i've read the article. The Oscar was undergunned in comparison to it's foes but the Japanese were able to compensate in some ways that the "math" doesn't allow for. Shores book contains among other tidbits commentary from Japanese Oscar drivers about how they overcame the firepower deficiency. Some of it involving aiming for vulnerable points in the enemy aircraft's frame. While the plane only had two guns, the centerline armament assisted them in aiming and "hosing" the enemy aircraft with fire. (while a plane such as the Zero would require more "finese" to get the cannon to hit home)




jwilkerson -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 6:30:09 PM)

Would be nice if we could get a "summary" of the "data" form the Shore book - please !?

N planes of Type X, engaged M planes of Y Type with P results on date Q ( like the "Elf" report ).

Also data regarding Oscar performance in Burma Theater - would be great - for comparison !

One ( the ? ) reason for the "Zero Bonus" early war IMO is lack of understanding of correct tactics on the part of the Allies. Chenault was the early exception. Just as USAF had to learn to fight in the verticle plane in Vietnam 20+ years later. The Allies had to learn that the Japanese could out turn them in the horizontal plane ... but diving, firing passes at the Japanese planes could be successful. The wider introduction of diving and firing, in conjunction with the "wing man" were 2 keys for "eliminating" the "bonus" IRL ( and maybe removing the idea that Japanese pilots were inherently inferior ).






Nikademus -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 6:36:16 PM)

I have the information, but not on me at work. As with Lundstrom, I have gone through each of Shores volumes with sharpie and pen and recorded all the confirmed kills by plane type. (well...Vol III is in progress...as mentiond i'm at 2/43 and the Ki-43 is still downing enemy aircraft)




Speedysteve -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 6:43:15 PM)

Priorities Nik. Walk out of work....rush home.....a quick hi to GF MkI........sit down with a beer......pick up Shore.....start recording.....do not deviate from your task until it is done......



Nikademus -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 6:49:55 PM)

Yeah right......GF Mark I just got laid off, so I think i know where my current priorities will lie after work (i.e. "damage control"). There's also the little issue of the current patch and the testing that needs to be done. Too many tasks....to few hours in the day..... [:(]



Speedysteve -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 6:52:21 PM)

Any good male is good at prioritising. Ah well.....nevermind Nik [:D]



Mynok -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 8:13:30 PM)


quote:

GF Mark I just got laid off


quote:

Too many tasks....too few hours in the day.....


You realize you have a cause and effect right there, don't you?



IS2m -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 8:28:13 PM)

My $.02:

I like the Oscar because it is crunchy on the outside and has a nice, chewy center [:D].

In all seriousness, If the Oscar is underperforming in the game, then definately boost its Maneuver rating. If its climb, ceiling, and armaments are correct, don't touch them.
It has been suggested that the Zero bonus should be applied to the Oscar. I do not have any philisophical problem with the Zero bonus: the allies were taken aback by this aircraft. I am not sure why the bonus should be applied to the Oscar, however. Oscars and Zeros appear superficially similar, but they are very different a/c.




m10bob -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 8:50:33 PM)

All of these past threads seem to put us back at the option of giving the Oscar a "Zero bonus" early on, (or a similar fix for the inaquate representation in the game), IMHO.......
All of the threads which included and quoted historical referances agree the plane WAS a capable and dangerous foe, (even the light gun version knocking down a P 47 has convinced me !!)[sm=terms.gif]



Terminus -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 8:58:30 PM)

Yeah, but could it do so consistently? Two 7.7mm, however massed they might be, are still only two rifle-caliber machineguns...



m10bob -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 9:04:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah, but could it do so consistently? Two 7.7mm, however massed they might be, are still only two rifle-caliber machineguns...

Dunno, but the plane was consistently effective.......
THAT seems to be the differance between how the plane is portrayed in the game, as opposed to how these historical threads relate the planes' effectiveness..



Big B -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 9:29:34 PM)

Let me start by saying I am an ardent opponent of the Zero Bonus...as it stands in the game.
I am convinced that the aircrafts stats, and much more importantly PILOT EXPERIENCE along with SUPERIOR NUMBERS already do what the Zero Bonus is supposed to represent in real life.

Ok, now having said that - if there is going to be Bonus Rule it may as well apply to the KI 43 Oscar as well.
The KI 43 can out turn, climb and roll a Zero - so what the heck - it beat's the Zero at it's own game.

The KI 43 does lack firepower and that's a fact of life - period.

However, before we start thinking that the A6M2 and KI43 can out maneuver allied fighters at will keep in mind the following figure's below: (From Hoof's)

Roll Rate: KI 43II
150mph: 6.1s
200mph: 5.7s
250mph: 6.5s
300mph: 8.1s
350mph: 17.5s

Roll Rate: A6M2
150mph: 4.9s
200mph: 5.9s
250mph: 6.9s
300mph: 14.8s
350mph: 21.6s

Roll Rate: P 40E
150mph: 6.1s
200mph: 4.6s
250mph: 3.6s
300mph: 3.1s
350mph: 2.7s
400mph: 4.8s

AS you can see from above, the P 40E easily out-rolls it's opponents as speed in combat goes over 150 MPH, and to turn - first you must roll. Not to mention a P-40 can shallow climb faster than an A6M and especially a KI 43 can manage in a straight line...we won't even talk about diving.
The question of maneuverability becomes esoteric as you start comparing a lot of apples to a lot of oranges.

I'll just finish up by saying - that if the game gives the A6M2 a higher MNVR rating than the KI 43, the KI 43 ought to be rated the same as the Zero.

But also keep in mind that these mnvr ratings ITRW changed drastically from one end of the speed/alt range spectrum to the other - with the same two adversary's exchanging advantage/superiority depending on speed and altitude.

B



jwilkerson -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 9:38:10 PM)

quote:

Dunno, but the plane was consistently effective.......


I still haven't seen enough war time performance data for me to agree that Oscar was a "consistently" effective Allied Fighter Killer. But I'm still a lookin' !!! Maybe just old stereotypes dying hard ... but ears and eyes are open ...


Here is a good read regarding 1941-1942 Air Battles over Burma ... had never seen this stuff before ... mostly from a Japanese source ... tempered with Allied side data ... lots of detail. Most of the early engagements were Nate versus Buffalo and ( AVG ) P40 ... Nate actually seems to hold its own for a while ... but toward Late Jan 42 starts taking heavy losses. 9mm armor on a few Nates is mentioned !!!

Oscars appear briefly 25 Jan 41 then disappear again ( to cover Palembang landing ) then reappear ... haven't had time to assimilate all this ... but if we can do an extract of the battles and the participating planes and the results ... I'm sure that will help ...


http://www.warbirdforum.com/jaafhist.htm



TheElf -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 9:42:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

As it was, it was simply way undergunned even when upgraded to two 12.7mms


Before we get too excited about Oscar being armed with two 12.7mm .. please read the following uberly researched article, which argues that most Oscars were "upgraded to" or had mixed armament ( 1x7.7.mm machine gun and 1x12.7mm machine cannon ) thus - indicating a further reduction in firepower.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/nakajima_ki43arm.htm



I think it is important to note that this article addresses the Ki-43-I and sub-variants only and mentions the Ki-43-II in the footnotes.



TheElf -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 9:49:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Wow.

Elf you sure have been busy [;)] (By the way...I have loved playing the game with your artwork)


Yes, Quite.[;)] And thank you. Just do me a favor and get some screenies in your AAR for advertising. My life's work is about to be completed for the CHS AND the Stock Scenario 15. But my priority right now is getting your A2A Tweaks into the CHS. So if we can just get'er done I can get back to the art....[:D]



jwilkerson -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 9:56:43 PM)

quote:

I think it is important to note that this article addresses the Ki-43-I and sub-variants only and mentions the Ki-43-II in the footnotes.


Yup - though production of the Ki-43-II beginning in Nov 42 means that if we are focusing the discussion on the first year of the war we can still use this data. After 1942 the next generation of Allied fighters will overwhelm even the twin 12.7 armed version from a firepower perspective.




TheElf -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 10:05:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Let me start by saying I am an ardent opponent of the Zero Bonus...as it stands in the game.
I am convinced that the aircrafts stats, and much more importantly PILOT EXPERIENCE along with SUPERIOR NUMBERS already do what the Zero Bonus is supposed to represent in real life.

Ok, now having said that - if there is going to be Bonus Rule it may as well apply to the KI 43 Oscar as well.
The KI 43 can out turn, climb and roll a Zero - so what the heck - it beat's the Zero at it's own game.

The KI 43 does lack firepower and that's a fact of life - period.

However, before we start thinking that the A6M2 and KI43 can out maneuver allied fighters at will keep in mind the following figure's below: (From Hoof's)

Roll Rate: KI 43II
150mph: 6.1s
200mph: 5.7s
250mph: 6.5s
300mph: 8.1s
350mph: 17.5s

Roll Rate: A6M2
150mph: 4.9s
200mph: 5.9s
250mph: 6.9s
300mph: 14.8s
350mph: 21.6s

Roll Rate: P 40E
150mph: 6.1s
200mph: 4.6s
250mph: 3.6s
300mph: 3.1s
350mph: 2.7s
400mph: 4.8s



B


B,
Without intending to start a detail debate on the physics of Air combat vis a vis the Oscar and the P-40 let me just say that, while roll rate is important, the number of degrees to turn from level flight to the max angle of bank to perform said high performance turn is 90. Roll rate is not a characteristic that is regularly sustained in air combat it is more of an instantaneous application, but turn rate and radius are sustainable over time. So for each aircraft at its given corner airspeed who do you think has the better turn performance overall?



So while the P-40 would win a race from level flight to an Angle of Bank of 90 degrees every time vs the Oscar, its turn rate and more importantly turn radius I think would cancel the intial turn edge that the P-40 seems to have.

This all assumes that the P-40 pilot has decided to turn with an Oscar...[:-]



TheElf -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 10:09:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

I think it is important to note that this article addresses the Ki-43-I and sub-variants only and mentions the Ki-43-II in the footnotes.


Yup - though production of the Ki-43-II beginning in Nov 42 means that if we are focusing the discussion on the first year of the war we can still use this data. After 1942 the next generation of Allied fighters will overwhelm even the twin 12.7 armed version from a firepower perspective.





I would agree that the time of the Oscar is certainly beginning to draw to an end, but Nik's sources seem to indicate that they were still formidable, or to be even more diplomatic...not the push over that they are in our beloved game.

in November of 42' P-38s are just coming on line. It isn' til Feb 43' where you will have anything other than Lightnings in significant #s.



Nikademus -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 10:29:42 PM)

you could always just play the mod with your artwork. [:D]

I wonder if the Oscar's propellor was faulty like the Reisen's? [:'(]



TheElf -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 10:53:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

you could always just play the mod with your artwork. [:D]

I wonder if the Oscar's propellor was faulty like the Reisen's? [:'(]



If the CHS doesn't incorporate your work, I probably will. If the Oscars prop is as faulty then it SHOULD be shot down in droves. Stupid propeller[;)]

I have question for you. In reading one of the Web articles posted in this thread there is alot of discussion about the 77th and and other Sentais flying Ki-27s in Burma. They seemed to have had equally good days against the AVG for every bad day they had.

In my Stock PBEM ANY time I encounter Nates even with numerically inferior formations I eat them for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

How have your tweaks affected that aircraft? Does it benefit from the same Accuracy tweaks you gave the Ki-43 for its centerline gunn package?



Nikademus -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 11:15:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I have question for you. In reading one of the Web articles posted in this thread there is alot of discussion about the 77th and and other Sentais flying Ki-27s in Burma. They seemed to have had equally good days against the AVG for every bad day they had.


Yes, the Nates did well over both Malaya and Burma...at least initially in the latter case. They traded roughly 1:1 vs the AVG and 67 squadron during the 1st phase of the Burma fighting but more importantly they protected the bombers. During the 2nd phase the AVG and 67 did a bit better due in part to a better developed early warning net which allowed them additional time to set up ambushes. Overall AVG/67 did the 'best' out of all the SRA commands but it was nevertheless, still no slaughter. They just didn't get slaughtered in of themselves. The Japanese did realize though that they were flying obsolecent planes and after Burma was occupied and the fighting died down, they took the opportunity to revamp, the fighter sentais going back to Japan to re-equip with Ki-43. By june of 42, only the 64th remained based out of Rangoon.

quote:


In my Stock PBEM ANY time I encounter Nates even with numerically inferior formations I eat them for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.


Yes, because the math works against them. Speed is the most heavily weighted variable followed by gun-value. I explained the whole thing to Brady a month or two ago when everyone was arguing about cannons vs. MG's.

quote:


How have your tweaks affected that aircraft? Does it benefit from the same Accuracy tweaks you gave the Ki-43 for its centerline gunn package?


You've read Speedy's AAR right? The Oscars and Nates are doing their job now and Speedy hasn't had to run to A6M for support whenever enemy aircraft darken the skies over Malaya and Burma. Gun accuracy was part of the tweak, but just one part. They cant kill bombers maybe as well as they were able too in real life but they do better. They can drive off bombers through morale failures.



FeurerKrieg -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 11:18:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

If the CHS doesn't incorporate your work, I probably will.



My approach as well. I'd like to take Sardaukar and Derek's sub radar work, and my night fighter radars and put them into my own 'version' of CHS. Of course, ideally I'd like to see those mentioned suggestions included in CHS for everyone.

Regarding the Oscar can't we just increase the manuv and leave the armament the same? That would seem to rather quickly fix things since the weak guns won't be able to do much to armored allied planes, but will allow them to a) avoid getting shot themselves and b) hit early unarmored allied planes with some success.



rtrapasso -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 11:25:11 PM)

quote:

The Oscars and Nates are doing their job now and Speedy hasn't had to run to A6M for support whenever enemy aircraft darken the skies over Malaya and Burma. Gun accuracy was part of the tweak, but just one part. They cant kill bombers maybe as well as they were able too in real life but they do better. They can drive off bombers through morale failures.


For some reason, a picture pops into my (sick) mind of a Nate towing a big banner reading "Aussies! Brits! Americans are sleeping with your women!!!" Morale broken, the British and Australian pilots return to their bases...



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 11:28:29 PM)

quote:

Regarding the Oscar can't we just increase the manuv and leave the armament the same? That would seem to rather quickly fix things since the weak guns won't be able to do much to armored allied planes, but will allow them to a) avoid getting shot themselves and b) hit early unarmored allied planes with some success.


I did this in my workshop tester install. Seems to work but the air model is too mysterious to know for sure. Best thing to do is do what Nik did, create a mod and let people play it over the long haul.



jwilkerson -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 11:29:55 PM)

quote:

I would agree that the time of the Oscar is certainly beginning to draw to an end, but Nik's sources seem to indicate that they were still formidable, or to be even more diplomatic...not the push over that they are in our beloved game.

in November of 42' P-38s are just coming on line. It isn' til Feb 43' where you will have anything other than Lightnings in significant #s.


I'm certainly open to looking at more data ! My "gut" has been from the beginning that Nate and Oscar are a little too vulnerable ( I've now played close to 2400 PBEM turns so far as Japanese ) but these aren't the only cases of too much or too little so I haven't made a big case out of it. Also, now in CHS it is ( probably incorrectly ) possible to completely replace the Nates by Oscars ( Oscar Is ) pretty darn early - very different from Stock where in one game ... I'm still using Nates for front line missions and we are in May 43 ...

But if we can firm up the data a bit - I think this ( upgrading the Oscars/Nates ) is all a part of trying to pull some of the "mods" together.



jwilkerson -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 11:34:08 PM)

quote:

I'd like to take Sardaukar and Derek's sub radar work, and my night fighter radars and put them into my own 'version' of CHS. Of course, ideally I'd like to see those mentioned suggestions included in CHS for everyone.


If Sardaukar and Derek and yourself can put your proposals into a concise format and shoot over to Andrew - I don't know why they couldn't be incorporated into CHS.




Nikademus -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 11:42:20 PM)

not at all. The air model is quite understandable. Getting the proper result is simply time consuming.



m10bob -> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar (11/9/2005 11:53:21 PM)

I know a lot of the players here are pilots, but for those of you who are not, I will try to explain something.
The P 40 was absolutely one of the fastest "rolling" planes of the entire war.
A "roll rate" is how quickly the plane is able to alter it's course in the sky, (basically).
Turn rate is a different animal altogether.
All planes lose speed when climbing, or when turning. The less speed a plane loses when turning, allows it to sustain a turn for a longer time without reaching its' stall speed.
Therefore, a plane with a worse turning radius is going to stall out of the sky when it reaches the pinnacle of it's turning radius.
Note, all planes turning also lose altitude while turning, so a plane which loses less speed and altitude will win over even faster planes *if the faster plane is dumb enough to try to turn with it*..
This is why the Dr I Fokker Triplane was a great plane against Spads and Se 5's and Camels...They were all good planes but the Tripe had greater lift capacity on its' wings and could maintain speed while turning longer.

This was the whole theory behind Japanese planes from the beginning.
They intentionally made "dogfighters", while the Allies made their planes to replicate the same "fast hit and run" tactics of the SPAD's, etc, which were faster durning that prior war......



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