Counterpunch in Jan 42... (Full Version)

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trajanus -> Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 4:26:38 AM)

DISCLAIMER: me vs. AI, first scen. 15

Its late Jan, 42 and 3 of my allied CV's are in brisbane fueling up for a, hopefully, suprise uppercut at the IJN operating with minimal resistance in their invasions of the DEI. my LBA has been hitting IJ shipping with great results, and 1 scratched CVL. Zuhio(sp) I've seen glimpses of the KB near the PI, but no confirmations on that.

I'm hoping to sink alot of shipping and maybe net some CA's and BB's. I figure it is a very risky operation as the KB is unaccounted for, but the situation there is getting desperate and my bases in nomeau, PM, and Suva have not yet been established yet...

I probably won't save the DEI, but maybe I can slow down the IJ machine.

So is it possible, was it feasible in real life? Comments? Suggestions?




ADavidB -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 5:07:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trajanus

DISCLAIMER: me vs. AI, first scen. 15

Its late Jan, 42 and 3 of my allied CV's are in brisbane fueling up for a, hopefully, suprise uppercut at the IJN operating with minimal resistance in their invasions of the DEI. my LBA has been hitting IJ shipping with great results, and 1 scratched CVL. Zuhio(sp) I've seen glimpses of the KB near the PI, but no confirmations on that.

I'm hoping to sink alot of shipping and maybe net some CA's and BB's. I figure it is a very risky operation as the KB is unaccounted for, but the situation there is getting desperate and my bases in nomeau, PM, and Suva have not yet been established yet...

I probably won't save the DEI, but maybe I can slow down the IJ machine.

So is it possible, was it feasible in real life? Comments? Suggestions?




Here are a few things for you to consider:

If the AI turns it's LBA to Naval Attack you will have big problems, even without the KB charging in.

Fueling up in Brisbane won't help you in the DEI - have you moved LOTS of fuel to the Northern Australian bases? If you run low on fuel the KB will run you down like a turtle on a highway.

Look at how few fighters you have on your carriers. Do you think that you can you stop an attack of 100 bombers and 100 fighters? Or even more?

Are you planning to travel between Australia and PNG? Have you checked for enemy subs?

Which way will you retreat when the KB shows up?

Do you have land-based patrol planes covering the area?

If you really want to raid, take the route around Australia so that your TF isn't detected, then hit'n'run.

Don't plan to stick around in the Javanese ports - you will be hunted down.

After all this risk, what is your end goal?

BTW - do you know how long it takes to get your carriers down to a level "3" system damage so that they can upgrade? Where do you plan to upgrade your ships if they survive this attack?

Also, remember, you need more than 20K supplies in a base to upgrade your airplanes.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi



trajanus -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 5:17:58 AM)

[sm=00000007.gif]

I guess I didn't think of all that. hmm..

Well they are fueling in Brisbane now.. but the northern Australian forces have plenty of fuel. My plan was to stay away from the main airbases, and do sneak attacks...so I wouldn't be pushing very far foward, just enough to maybe catch some convoys unprotected...

The LBA is a very serious issue, but i've been operating a few small TF's of 1-2 cruisers and 5-8 destroyers who have been enjoying moderate success with only a couple of feeble airstrikes against them. perhaps i am being lulled into a false sense of security! [:)]

So you would vote against it huh? [:D]



ADavidB -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 5:18:09 AM)

quote:

I'm hoping to sink alot of shipping and maybe net some CA's and BB's.


Oh yeah, before I forget again - you have to get within two hexes of a target TF in order to have your Devastators drop torpedoes. That will be quite hard to do, even in the close confines of the DEI - the AI won't usually leave combat TFs around to be shot at.

And your Dauntlesses won't usually scratch the paint on Japanese BBs, or even many Japanese CAs. So you are best to focus on "soft" targets, particularly until your bomber pilots get some practice.

Good luck again -

Dave



Feinder -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 5:19:00 AM)

What he said.

Frankly, I wouldn't take such a big risk with your CVs just to hunt a couple of tranports. KB can get away with it, simply because it's God. But let's say you're successful beyond your wildest dreams, and sink a whole convoy of 10 APs. Congrats. He has 440 of them to start the war with. What if, not so best case, you're "lucky", and only get 1 CV damaged by his LBA? It's not got 20 sys dmg, and will be in the yards for 8 weeks. Not to mention the 6 weeks it's going to take to get there. Or worse, what if KB shows up. He kills ALL your carriers, you have nothing York, Hornet, Wasp arriving piecemale, and you go from a potentional of 6 CVs in July, to only 3. It'll be late Summer of '43 before you have 6 - 8 CVs again to match KB.

Fortune favors the brave, but not the stupid (* just kidding, don't take it personally, just a favorite twist of my own on that quote).

If you want to raid, use your CVs to raid where KB isn't. If iKB is in DEI, then raid the Marshalls (except I -hate- Bettys). But you DON'T want KB to come tracking you down, just because you wanted to kill a couple of transports.

-F-



ADavidB -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 5:20:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trajanus

[sm=00000007.gif]

I guess I didn't think of all that. hmm..

Well they are fueling in Brisbane now.. but the northern Australian forces have plenty of fuel. My plan was to stay away from the main airbases, and do sneak attacks...so I wouldn't be pushing very far foward, just enough to maybe catch some convoys unprotected...

The LBA is a very serious issue, but i've been operating a few small TF's of 1-2 cruisers and 5-8 destroyers who have been enjoying moderate success with only a couple of feeble airstrikes against them. perhaps i am being lulled into a false sense of security! [:)]


So you would vote against it huh? [:D]


Not necessarily - I've done early raiding the DEI in most of my games as the Allies. But I've also usually lost one or two carriers, or had them badly damaged while doing it.

Good luck again -

Dave Baranyi



ADavidB -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 5:26:33 AM)

quote:

Well they are fueling in Brisbane now.. but the northern Australian forces have plenty of fuel.


BTW - you don't know the meaning of "plenty of fuel" until you've seen what a thirsty Carrier TF can do to a base's fuel reserves. Assume that the TF will use 20K of fuel each time that you stop in for a "fill up".

And remember, once the DDs in your TF start to run low on fuel the Program will automatically slow down the TF to refuel the DDs from the "big boys". That is very, very "bad" when you are trying to escape the KB or to "sneak" up on a TF.

BTW II - do you have "long-legged" DDs in your TF? If you have any DDs with an endurance less than 6000, leave them behind, they won't be any help and they will slow you down terribly.

Good luck -

Dave



trajanus -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 5:37:41 AM)

I'm attempting to reinforce Java and Timor right now, I will probably lose them, but I want the IJ to fight for every base... My plan was to sit my CV's back and wait to spot troop transports and then do a hit and run. It is very risky with LBA and the KB, but (as this is my first game and I'm not playing a 'run away and get it later' strategy) if I can delay and perhaps even deny a complete conquest of the DEI, it may be worth a carrier or 2...then again I may lose all 3 and not even slow down the IJ.

hmmm...good thing i'm at work so I can think it over...

I could just hit rabaul.. i'm sure its not beefed up with LBA just yet...and the IJ have just landed at Lae...



ADavidB -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 6:52:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trajanus

I'm attempting to reinforce Java and Timor right now, I will probably lose them, but I want the IJ to fight for every base... My plan was to sit my CV's back and wait to spot troop transports and then do a hit and run. It is very risky with LBA and the KB, but (as this is my first game and I'm not playing a 'run away and get it later' strategy) if I can delay and perhaps even deny a complete conquest of the DEI, it may be worth a carrier or 2...then again I may lose all 3 and not even slow down the IJ.

hmmm...good thing i'm at work so I can think it over...

I could just hit rabaul.. i'm sure its not beefed up with LBA just yet...and the IJ have just landed at Lae...


Your real enemy in the DEI isn't the LBA, nor even the KB. It is the Japanese ability to drop a dozen experienced divisions wherever they want. You can't match that, and you can't stop that in early 1942. Reinforcements that you put into Java will be lost, and you won't have them for use elsewhere.

BTW - the only thing worth sacrificing a carrier for is another carrier!!! Your carriers will be the equals of the KB by Year's End if you don't waste them now. The threat of your carriers will slow down the Japanese, particularly if your opponent doesn't know where your carriers are hiding.

Your idea about ambushing TFs in PNG and the Solomons is a better idea. But don't really bother going after bases yet - you will just lose lots of good carrier planes. watch out for invasion TFs and hit them, then run!

Dave Baranyi



hbrsvl -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 4:36:02 PM)

Hi- I don't even try to get CVs into DEI. What I do is get Baker Island set up as a fuel & air base( It starts out as a level 1 airport) Then take a div +from Pearl & take back Tarawa, Makin & perhaps Naru. In addition to the few points you get back, you shorten sailing distance to Australia. Also, from 12/8 get air ( VF & VB-stage them through Cotabu, Sansapor & Hollandia.) to Rabaul & PM. Send AK from Davao, etc. to pick up the strays. Also Aussie CA & CL to Rabaul, plus the US arty unit headed for Suva. Also get suppy & fuel into Rabaul. I've done this and have survived at Rabaul despite the KB coming down to raise hell-I even sank a CVL by air. Keeping Rabaul saves a lot of grief later. Also, it forces KB to operate out of Truk. If the Japanese take Kavieng, use your B-17s to pound down the airfield there. Hope this will help. Hugh Browne



RUPD3658 -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 4:39:13 PM)

If the KB is elsewhere a hit & run raid on Kwajalain is always good. The LBA should be managable and there should be some AS and transports there.



tsimmonds -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 5:51:29 PM)

quote:

Then take a div +from Pearl & take back Tarawa, Makin & perhaps Naru. In addition to the few points you get back, you shorten sailing distance to Australia. Also, from 12/8 get air ( VF & VB-stage them through Cotabu, Sansapor & Hollandia.) to Rabaul & PM. Send AK from Davao, etc. to pick up the strays. Also Aussie CA & CL to Rabaul, plus the US arty unit headed for Suva. Also get suppy & fuel into Rabaul. I've done this and have survived at Rabaul despite the KB coming down to raise hell-I even sank a CVL by air. Keeping Rabaul saves a lot of grief later.


This sounds like lots of fun....for me as IJ.[;)]



niceguy2005 -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 6:05:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Your real enemy in the DEI isn't the LBA, nor even the KB. It is the Japanese ability to drop a dozen experienced divisions wherever they want. You can't match that, and you can't stop that in early 1942. Reinforcements that you put into Java will be lost, and you won't have them for use elsewhere.

BTW - the only thing worth sacrificing a carrier for is another carrier!!! Your carriers will be the equals of the KB by Year's End if you don't waste them now. The threat of your carriers will slow down the Japanese, particularly if your opponent doesn't know where your carriers are hiding.

Your idea about ambushing TFs in PNG and the Solomons is a better idea. But don't really bother going after bases yet - you will just lose lots of good carrier planes. watch out for invasion TFs and hit them, then run!

Dave Baranyi


ADavidB and Feinder are giving excellent advise IF your opponent is PBEM, but against the AI, I think you could risk it. The reason to do so though is for fun - the AI is really boring to play if you aren't aggresive. It is a big risk, but that's what war is about and the AI just isn't that good.

I think fighting it out in the DEI would be a lot of fun. The AI isn't smart enough to account for you reinforcing JAVA, so it will land its preplanned number of troops and spend weeks trying to beat you with those before it lands reinforcements. If your going to reinforce Java though do it with at least a BDE or a Division, otherwise the AI will still beat you with the troops it is landing.

I agree that if you raid DEI with Carriers, go for the soft targets as your objective. If you get lucky you might get to take a shot at a surface task force. ALthough, if the AI is running bombardment fleets, you could anticipate where they will be with a high degree of probability and wait for one.

I think using the US carriers early in the war for raids is fine (though somewhat risky), but never send them up againes Japanese Carriers unless you have a 2:1 advantage.

Plan on the KB showing up, so you have to deicde how long you will linger in the area. ALso, you have to operate your carriers under a very solid umbrella of naval search aircraft like long range bombers and patrol planes. If you have other carriers operational in other areas, consider a feint (not a raid, just let your carrier be seen) that might get the KBs attention.

Use your B-17s on this raid. If you can fly B-17s in mass (100+) into a base, or two, have them stand by in case the KB does show up; it probably will. I have alwasy had good success when attacking the KB with 150+ b-17s

Finally, what level of difficulty are you playing against the AI. If it is the one where the AI peeks at your moves, the KB will move to intercept you in the DEI almost as soon as you set it as your destination. YOu won't have the element of surprise.

Happy hunting [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/17264/C6921A7529A4416DAB33E3D5F886DC77.gif[/image]



Feinder -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 6:38:23 PM)

Does numb-nutts AI still run KB out of gas?

That was my biggest frustration with the AI (that, and it impaling itself).

But it was problematic for my game, because KB would disappear. I'd get frustrated, swap sides, and find KB out of gas 20 hexes west of Broome sailing off to nowhere). I'd turn it around, refuel it at Java. Wait for it do something else. It would run out of gas south of Rabaul. But instead of returning to Rabaul where there was 40k fuel, it would paddle it's way to Truk.

[sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]

-F-



ADavidB -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 8:40:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Does numb-nutts AI still run KB out of gas?

That was my biggest frustration with the AI (that, and it impaling itself).

But it was problematic for my game, because KB would disappear. I'd get frustrated, swap sides, and find KB out of gas 20 hexes west of Broome sailing off to nowhere). I'd turn it around, refuel it at Java. Wait for it do something else. It would run out of gas south of Rabaul. But instead of returning to Rabaul where there was 40k fuel, it would paddle it's way to Truk.

[sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]

-F-


It still does it quite regularly, along with emptying the front line bases of supplies and fuel and sending them back to the home islands, and having hundreds of little TFs sailing aimlessly. It gets worse if you capture or strongly defend some non-historic bases.

Dave Baranyi



niceguy2005 -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 9:22:51 PM)

My favorite tactic is to take an AI controlled base and then watch it send wave after wave of bombardment fleets to shell the base, without any air support and regardless of how many ships you have at the base.

When I play the AI it takes the AI about two weeks to run out of steam because it squandered all its ships. [:D]



trajanus -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 9:26:37 PM)

You guys are making me feel like my game is now fruitless... [:(]


If they AI does that then I could spend my time getting crushed against a human...but I am still very new so it may not be to much fun...hmmm



ADavidB -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 9:49:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trajanus

You guys are making me feel like my game is now fruitless... [:(]


If they AI does that then I could spend my time getting crushed against a human...but I am still very new so it may not be to much fun...hmmm


No, the AI is quite good from the point of view of learning, particularly since you can save multiple versions of a turn and go back to "tweak" what you did in order to see how small changes affect things. So, for example, try an attack, look at the results, then go back and change the leader, then re-run the turn. It's the best way to start to learn the game.

Another very good way to learn is to do the shortest scenario and switch sides so that you can get an idea of what happens from both points of view.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi



Feinder -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 10:41:27 PM)

The AI can be very fun. I played it, and even teamed against it with my brother (he was USN, I was everybody else). It was fun. It just needed some "help" every now an then. You do this by switching sides. And another poster (Derek), even has an AI game in late 1944 or even 1945. It must have taken him over a year to get that far. And it mustn't suck, if he's played same oppenent for that long...

[:)]

It's not fruitless to play the AI. And it's certainly kinder on your blood pressure. PBEM can be "unhealthy" at times...

-F-



niceguy2005 -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/11/2005 10:47:43 PM)

Agreed, don't be discouraged. The AI is not helpless. When I played scenario 15 against the AI, it took most of 42 for me to beat it. Through out most of that year things were nip and tuck. By beat it I mean pound the other side to the point where it doesn't matter any more, not occupy Japan. I declared victory when I attacked about half the IJN anchored at truk. After 4 days of pounding from the US KB, most capital ships were at sys 99, so the game is basically over.

[image]local://upfiles/17264/7B58BFEDFD29412A9538BFE61CFB69B3.gif[/image]



Sneer -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/12/2005 11:56:35 AM)

too early ...that's all
you will fuel fire started by Japan



tsimmonds -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/12/2005 3:41:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

too early ...that's all
you will fuel fire started by Japan

In PBEM, yes; vs the AI is okay.



Ddog -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/16/2005 11:01:16 AM)

Trajanus,

I see you are a wildcat fanboy. Just one thing, don't count on them to do much in this game. I lost 3 CV's in a 1942 battle. I had 55 wildcats flying CAP, lost all of them in one attack. The very next wave came in unopposed. Hide your carriers until you get the hellcats lol




jrlans -> RE: Counterpunch in Jan 42... (11/17/2005 1:19:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ddog

Trajanus,

I see you are a wildcat fanboy. Just one thing, don't count on them to do much in this game. I lost 3 CV's in a 1942 battle. I had 55 wildcats flying CAP, lost all of them in one attack. The very next wave came in unopposed. Hide your carriers until you get the hellcats lol




thats not actualy true in my game v. the AI i won a battle vs KB in early 43 off the coast of guam. Wildcats did just fine sunk 3 of the 5 IJN flatops with not a single bomb scored on an american carrier. (few transprots took some 250kg though) All in all it was a great sucsess. though the us had 7 fleet CVs and i think 4 cvls and 4 cves to the ijn 5 so it was a bit lopsided



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