A Modest Proposel (Full Version)

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Richard III -> A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 6:32:30 PM)

I`ve been involved with playing and suporting WITP and UV since inception and even designed the alternate UV full Campaign for it on Spooky`s site. I posted here as " Black Cat " until a system crash lost my password, and since the Get New Password function doesn`t work I`ve re- registered with the current Name.

I mentioned this because, hopefully, the experience and time I`ve been around gives me a bit of credibility on the Games.

First, I`m _very disappointed_ , as are others, with the direction the Devs. have taken WITP though the changes to the units, which end up as changes to ahisorical and inaccurate Gameplay, the B-29 one just being the latest. In fact in the years I`ve been around Computer Games I`ve never seen a Simulation turned in a Game, always the reverse....

The reason many are unhappy is simple : WITP was originally designed as a SIMULATION of the Pacific War. This was stated in the pre games sales notes and re-inforced in the early changes to the code and Gameplay, and in fact was often stated as the Goal both by Billings and Heath no less on these very Forums long ago.

These Quick & Dirty changes, and the current push by folks, both Matrix posters and " Fans" to " it`s just a Game" is really sad, the more so since it is really unncessary to Dumb Down the Simulation since simple changes to the Victory Conditions would allow the Japanese player to " Win " by not letting the Allied Player achive certain goals. However, that doesn`t seem of interest to the Matrix Devs.[&:]

However that`s not my point. This is:

Since matrix doesn`t seem interested in supporting the Game as the Sim it was designed to be, and the reason many of us bought it , why not release the editing and modding tools that Mike uses to make these changes so people can customize the Game the way they want.

The ability certainly exists in the WITP Community to refine and improve the Sim, and as everyone knows the ability to truly Mod the Code will give real legs to the Software. Witness Doom, Quake and the Civ series of Games to name but a few.

Hell, even sell a modding tool kit if necessary.

Edited for spelling




Big B -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 7:20:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

I`ve been involved with playing and suporting WITP and UV since inception and even designed the alternate UV full Campaign for it on Spooky`s site. I posted here as " Black Cat " until a system crash lost my password, and since the Get New Password function doesn`t work I`ve re- registered with the current Name.

I mentioned this because, hopefully, the experience and time I`ve been around gives me a bit of credibility on the Games.

First, I`m _very disappointed_ , as are others, with the direction the Devs. have taken WITP though the changes to the units, which end up as changes to ahisorical and inaccurate Gameplay, the B-29 one just being the latest. In fact in the years I`ve been around Computer Games I`ve never seen a Simulation turned in a Game, always the reverse....

The reason many are unhappy is simple : WITP was originally designed as a SIMULATION of the Pacific War. This was stated in the pre games sales notes and re-inforced in the early changes to the code and Gameplay, and in fact was often stated as the Goal both by Billings and Heath no less on these very Forums long ago.

These Quick & Dirty changes, and the current push by folks, both Matrix posters and " Fans" to " it`s just a Game" is really sad, the more so since it is really unncessary to Dumb Down the Simulation since simple changes to the Victory Conditions would allow the Japanese player to " Win " by not letting the Allied Player achive certain goals. However, that doesn`t seem of interest to the Matrix Devs.[&:]

However that`s not my point. This is:

Since matrix doesn`t seem interested in supporting the Game as the Sim it was designed to be, and the reason many of us bought it , why not release the editing and modding tools that Mike uses to make these changes so people can customize the Game the way they want.

The ability certainly exists in the WITP Community to refine and improve the Sim, and as everyone knows the ability to truly Mod the Code will give real legs to the Software. Witness Doom, Quake and the Civ series of Games to name but a few.

Hell, even sell a modding tool kit if necessary.

Edited for spelling




Agreed,

Another thought, I have only been playing WitP for a little less than a year - but the majority of posts that I have read complaining about where the game is going suggests to me that patches have fixed known bugs AND changed the original design.

Perhaps it would be worth whorth while to put out a comprehensive patch to be installed over a fresh copy of the game that would ONLY fix the bugs that have been identified but leaving the original game otherwise intact?

B



Richard III -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 7:30:01 PM)

B, Great Idea !! [;)]

That thought for a seperate " Enhancement Patch " that just delt with changes to the Combat and other Gameplay routines was put forth a long time ago by Me, Ron S. and Mike S. among others, with pure Bug Fixs in a seperate patch. so you did _ not _ have to have unwanted changes to game Play to get a Bug Fix.

Perhaps they can re-visit that idea with your excellent proposel




kafka -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 7:35:03 PM)

Yep, why not release a developer edition of the game including all the tools necessary to customize the game, including a map editor to create new maps? Release a WITP SDK, best a C++ API compatible with MS VC 6.



Terminus -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 8:34:58 PM)

As long as people are still buying the game, that's not going to happen...



Big B -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 10:27:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

As long as people are still buying the game, that's not going to happen...


...does that mean we have to organise a protest??![:D]

B



Terminus -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 10:53:28 PM)

Yeah, protest against WitP still being for sale. You guys go ahead, and let me know how it turns out...



Bodhi -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 10:59:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kafka

Yep, why not release a developer edition of the game including all the tools necessary to customize the game, including a map editor to create new maps? Release a WITP SDK, best a C++ API compatible with MS VC 6.


Probably because the cost to do so would never be justified by the extra sales that any mods would bring in.



Tankerace -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 11:03:11 PM)

Let me also put it in a way people can understand. You want those things for the modders. I am the dev of WPO, and I don't even have access to that stuff. If I want a change, I ask Mike. If they won't let me have it, why would they let the community? Cost. And threat of piracy. And I for one can't say their fears aren't completely unjustified.



Tankerace -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 11:08:59 PM)

And also along with the piracy thing, that would create 2 vulnerable games, as WPO and WitP use the same engine. It would be bad form to release while they are selling, especially with WPO so close to release.



Bodhi -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 11:29:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I am the dev of WPO, and I don't even have access to that stuff. If I want a change, I ask Mike.


Then, using the accepted use of the two terms, maybe Mike is the developer and you're the designer?



Tankerace -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 11:37:21 PM)

Well, let me rephrase. If I want a code change. All the rest of the stuff I did. But, he is the programmer, and has access to the code, whereas I, the not programmer, does not.

I was speaking in context of code, which is what an SDK would do.Anything else people want to modify in WitP, they can do that now without an SDK. Its just a matter of time and effort.



Richard III -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/13/2005 11:54:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi


quote:

ORIGINAL: kafka

Yep, why not release a developer edition of the game including all the tools necessary to customize the game, including a map editor to create new maps? Release a WITP SDK, best a C++ API compatible with MS VC 6.


Probably because the cost to do so would never be justified by the extra sales that any mods would bring in.



I`m not proposing any protest, just some common sense that will forfill the promises Matrix made in regard to WITP as a SIMULATION to us who bought the Game in good faith and waited over a year through endless patches to play it as that.

Id Software, which open sourced the code for both Doom and Quake seem to doing OK, wouldn`t you say ? The ability to Mod the Game had added legs to their old products and created a MASSIVE Customer /Fan Base, as opposed to the 20+ guys trading one liners with each other on this Forum.

You really think they are selling many copies of the Game at this point ?.... and any Scum Bag Pirates need only buy a copy with the Key Code. Please..that`s a weak arguement.

BTW: Fraxis/2K Games will release a huge moders tool kit for Civ 4 next week, and will likly open source the Code at years end. I guess the sellers of 6 million copies of the Civ Games don`t know what their doing either....[8|]

I don`t care how they achive it, Realism Patch, etc, allow the Game to be played as it was designed before all the " Game " tinkering.

Thank You.





Terminus -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 12:08:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You really think they are selling many copies of the Game at this point ?.... and any Scum Bag Pirates need only buy a copy with the Key Code. Please..that`s a weak arguement.


If they only sell ONE copy of the game a month, that's enough...

quote:


and will likly open source the Code at years end.


Yeah, sure they will. Get real...



Richard III -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 12:09:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Well, let me rephrase. If I want a code change. All the rest of the stuff I did. But, he is the programmer, and has access to the code, whereas I, the not programmer, does not.

I was speaking in context of code, which is what an SDK would do.Anything else people want to modify in WitP, they can do that now without an SDK. Its just a matter of time and effort.



You know, and now you know I know, that major aspects of WITP are hardcoded for specific results, , often by date, especially by Country, including the way the Japanese CV`s react in a CV vs CV battle and NO amount of tinkering in the Editor are going to chage key aspects of the Game, especially combat , that Mike has " altered " for " Balance " AKA Skewing Historical Reality to please some vocal PBEM gamesters and / or promoting WITP as a Fun lightweight " Game " to sell more copies to the non hardcore..




Richard III -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 12:14:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You really think they are selling many copies of the Game at this point ?.... and any Scum Bag Pirates need only buy a copy with the Key Code. Please..that`s a weak arguement.


If they only sell ONE copy of the game a month, that's enough...

quote:


and will likly open source the Code at years end.


Yeah, sure they will. Get real...


I`m very Real and actually have information unlike your Opinions.

If you can spare the time from posting here 10 times a day ( 5395 post in 6 months [X(][:D] ) do a search on Civ Fantics : fraxis, Soren , 2K Games. ... report back ( with at least 10 daily valuable posts.....)


Thanks !



Terminus -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 12:18:05 AM)

Well, it's good that you're so wise and all-knowing. Buh-bye!



Tankerace -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 12:35:26 AM)

LOL. I can name by the bushel games that the devs promised an SDK that never came, or was dumbed down to such a way that sweeping changes like what you want with WitP can not be done. Besides, WitP and WPO combined will never sell 6 million copies. Thus, every penny made from each sale counts more, and cannot be risked.



Burzmali -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 1:31:31 AM)

Tankerace, how about the converse, how many games can you name that released an SDK only to be done in by pirates?



Tankerace -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 1:56:11 AM)

Truthfully? None. But then most major SDKs and/or open source is done at least a year or two (or more) after the product has stopped selling in major quantities.

Still, if you spent a over a year doing a game, would you want the company to release the code just as your game was going to market? Or would you at least like it to sell some first? Remember, in terms of code, you can't think only of WitP but of WitP and WPO. The source code to one allows the source to the other, even though the games are different.

I agree, several games improve with the SDK and code released (Mig Alley and Rowan's BoB to name but two of them), but they are usually released long after the game is released.



Bodhi -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 2:09:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Remember, in terms of code, you can't think only of WitP but of WitP and WPO. The source code to one allows the source to the other, even though the games are different.



Then the games don't sound very different to me. What is WPO, apart from a new OOB and new graphics if the source code is the same?



Tankerace -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 2:20:19 AM)

I didn't say the source code was the same, I said it was similar. The basic WitP engine is there. Mike didn't rewrite the entire engine for WPO. WitP can't run WPO scenarios, and vice versa. But for the kind of SDK people are wanting, that they can completely change WitP to their needs, it is possible (in theory) that it can change WPO.

This isn't the best analogy, but I think it conveys it. WPO is to WitP as Rising SUn is to West Front. Different games, but their base engine is the same. That said, each plays different, and feels different. And a tool to look in the code for West Front could conceivably mess with Rising SUn.

I'm forced to ask Bodhi, considering we have said over and over that WPO is based on the WitP engine, that some WPO fixes have been put in WitP (the ASW), and vice versa, I mean were you expecting a ocmpletely rewritten, different engine? WPO feels different, looks different, plays different, sounds different, yet a good chunk of its code is like War in the Pacific. Much the same way as the CS series. Each was a different game, yet shared in many respects the same basic code.

Various elements (too many to list) were changed from WitP to better reflect a 1920's war. But many things are just as in WitP, because the base engine proved itself flexible. But Mike didn't build a new game from scratch. Which is what we said, considering WPO was mod, and then an expansion, and now a standalone. WPO is a completely new OOB, new graphics, new scenarios, and new code to reflect a 1920's war. But WPO is built off the WitP engine. Meaning that although each game feels different, many parts of the code are the same. Again, considering WPO's development history (which I never hid or obscured), I'm not sure if you were expecting a completely new game from the ground up. From the forum blurb by David Heath:

War Plan Orange is the follow up game designed by Justin Prince using our War in the Pacific engine. WPO covers a hypothetical Pacific War in the years before Carriers supplanted Battleships and Dreadnoughts as the Kings of the Sea.

No mysteries there that the game is similar to UV and WitP. All I am saying, is the more versatile the SDK (like what people are wanting in this thread) COULD (Again, in theory) be used for WPO. And as such, I doubt such a thing would be released until at least WPO gets off to a good start.



trajanus -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 4:01:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

BTW: Fraxis/2K Games will release a huge moders tool kit for Civ 4 next week, and will likly open source the Code at years end. I guess the sellers of 6 million copies of the Civ Games don`t know what their doing either....[8|]



That doesn't make sense from a business standpoint. I am sure they will have good sale numbers up to and past that point. releasing the code could lose them X amount of money.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III
do a search on Civ Fantics : fraxis, Soren , 2K Games


I would wait until i see it on an official press release before I start believing it. But since you have seen it...be a pal and give us the link.



Tankerace -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 4:27:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You really think they are selling many copies of the Game at this point ?.... and any Scum Bag Pirates need only buy a copy with the Key Code. Please..that`s a weak arguement.


If they only sell ONE copy of the game a month, that's enough...

quote:


and will likly open source the Code at years end.


Yeah, sure they will. Get real...


I`m very Real and actually have information unlike your Opinions.

If you can spare the time from posting here 10 times a day ( 5395 post in 6 months [X(][:D] ) do a search on Civ Fantics : fraxis, Soren , 2K Games. ... report back ( with at least 10 daily valuable posts.....)


Thanks !


I did a search at Civ Fanatics. I found the Civ 3 Open Source project, but absolutely nothing on Civ 4 going open source. Nothing on goodle either. Now python itself, to a degree, is open source. But barring that, I came up with nothing.



Richard III -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 5:31:12 AM)

Sorry. It`s on Apolyton.net.

Go to the Civ 4 Forum, creation and files forum, " Initial Python Reference " thread, read what that can do, see the reference on the release of SDK.

Between that and Python what can`t be changed in Civ 4 that would effect Gameplay ?

Aside from that, the issue is:

1: WITP and what it has become as opposed to what it was sold to us as.

2: How it can be fixed to function as a Simulation, without losing Matrix money.

ADavidB, who has some credibility here had one answer on the original B-29 Thread, which would require no release of code or SDK and allow the Game to function as a Sim, which has been _completely ignored_ by the Matrix guys and you folks.



Bodhi -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 5:43:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

ADavidB, who has some credibility here had one answer on the original B-29 Thread, which would require no release of code or SDK and allow the Game to function as a Sim, which has been _completely ignored_ by the Matrix guys and you folks.



For those that may have missed it, or forgotten the details, can you summarise ADavidB's suggestion. Thanks.



Feinder -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 5:52:11 AM)

When folks say "Just make a mod to make things the way you like them!"

1. That is MUCH easier said than done. Anybody who advocates that has obviously never done a serious one. I 'bout lost my sanity doing Midway, and that's just a 2 week scenario. Tank is doing an entirely different war, with multiple scenarios (insanity I tell you!). H_ll, the "Final Countdown" scenario I'm doing, wiht just 1(!) ship, 5 plane types, and 20 weapons systems -still- isn't done.

2. Furthermore, any modding you might do, can be comepletely nulled by the next patch. Even if you make a mod to your liking, if something get's "tweaked", and it nerfs your own mod, your only solution is to either continue playing your own mod (now broken from an official patch), or re-tweak your mod, and start completely over. Sorry, neither choice is acceptable.

3. As a player, I don't think I should have to constantly "correct" the game, esp after patches. The patches should be making the game a better play experience for everyone, not succombing the screams of 10% of the game's polulation.

-F-



Richard III -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 6:02:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

ADavidB, who has some credibility here had one answer on the original B-29 Thread, which would require no release of code or SDK and allow the Game to function as a Sim, which has been _completely ignored_ by the Matrix guys and you folks.



For those that may have missed it, or forgotten the details, can you summarise ADavidB's suggestion. Thanks.



See page 1 of Feinder`s recent " B-29, The Fairy Princess of 1945 " thread, about 1/2 way down, or use the search function for Author please.

Thanks



Richard III -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 6:05:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

When folks say "Just make a mod to make things the way you like them!"


2. Furthermore, any modding you might do, can be ****comepletely nulled by the next patch****. Even if you make a mod to your liking, if something get's "tweaked", and it nerfs your own mod, your only solution is to either continue playing your own mod (now broken from an official patch), or re-tweak your mod, and start completely over. Sorry, neither choice is acceptable.

-F-


Which is why you have seen so few Scenario/Mods for WITP and UV.



Bodhi -> RE: A Modest Proposel (11/14/2005 7:05:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

ADavidB, who has some credibility here had one answer on the original B-29 Thread, which would require no release of code or SDK and allow the Game to function as a Sim, which has been _completely ignored_ by the Matrix guys and you folks.



For those that may have missed it, or forgotten the details, can you summarise ADavidB's suggestion. Thanks.




See page 1 of Feinder`s recent " B-29, The Fairy Princess of 1945 " thread, about 1/2 way down, or use the search function for Author please.

Thanks



I did, but all I could find were some suggested victory conditions:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Here are some "Victory Conditions" for a Japanese player in a WW II simulation:

- They reach May 1942 at or better than the historic achievements - a draw
- They reach January 1, 1943 at or better than the historical situation - a marginal victory
- They reach January 1, 1944 at or better than the historical situation - a clear victory
- They reach January 1, 1945 at or better than the historical situation - a decisive victory
- They reach August 14, 1945 at or better than the historical situation, and no atomic bombs have been dropped - a total victory

An Allied player likewise has to improve upon the historical situation or he loses on the same dates.
By "...at or better than the historical situation", I mean that the Japanese player has the same or better territorial situation and has the same or more forces, including ships, planes and troops, as the historical situation.
Thus, the "better" the Japanese player plays - taking more territory, losing fewer forces, etc. - the better the chance for a victory.
This alleviates the need to put ahistorical restrictions or enhancements on the forces of both sides.
It's too bad that the victory conditions for this game weren't designed in such a manner.



This can't be what you meant, as I can't see how altering victory conditions suddenly changes a game into a sim. [&:] Or am I missing something?



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