RE: Air Combat Mod with test results

RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (Full Version)

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Ron Saueracker -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/18/2005 11:40:50 PM)
Is this mod being tested something like Nik's mod (are they similar)? If so, how about some large engagements (or did I miss something)? I would really like to see Nik's mod tested with a large battle, seeing as large battle f-ups by the uber CAP model is both the reason for the mod in the first place and might be stalling any official code fix regarding whacked CAP model. Are there any out there? I have not seen any.[&:]

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/19/2005 12:11:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker Is this mod being tested something like Nik's mod (are they similar)? If so, how about some large engagements (or did I miss something)? The mod is similar to Niks and inspired by it. I think the speed modification is identical and I applied a mvr mod in the same way. (see earlier post for what I did) The difference is in how we approached lowering lethality. Nik adjusted durability and I went for firepower. Additioanlly this mod only deals with aircombat, Nik has modded more aspects i.e. antiaircraft, subs, pilot pools, etc. I plan on running both larger battles and smaller battles and see how the mod handles both. I am resonable sure it needs some tweeking and testing will tell me where. As an aside many people seem interested in what these test show in regard to the combat system, myself included, so I'll test all sorts of stuff.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/19/2005 1:12:51 AM)
I'm interested in the A2A aspects. A big battle would be a treat just to see if the A2A mod holds up in the large air battles the uber CAP model has caused. Thanks for your efforts.[:)]

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/19/2005 5:29:39 PM)
Test Result #8 I wanted to see how the mod behaved with unescorted raids to see if the reduced firepower would make bombers invulnerable. I will run a number of different match ups starting with the B-17E vs the A6M2. Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 42 Allied aircraft B-17E Fortress x 63 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed, 20 damaged Ki-49 Helen: 8 destroyed Allied aircraft losses B-17E Fortress: 2 destroyed, 24 damaged Japanese ground losses: 55 casualties reported Airbase hits 11 Airbase supply hits 2 Runway hits 28 I ran this type of battle 10 times with the following settings; Defenders 72 A6M2 80% Cap 72 Ki-49 targets Attackers 72 B-17E Average losses per dog fight (Standard / Mod) A6M2 4.4 / 1.2 B-17E-1 4.6 / 2.0 Airbase hits 53.8 / 41.0

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/19/2005 6:15:33 PM)
Test Result #9 Battle of the titans, the Blenheim IV vs the Ki-27. ay Air attack on Lae , at 54,87 Japanese aircraft Ki-27 Nate x 57 Allied aircraft Blenheim IV x 64 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-27 Nate: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged Ki-49 Helen: 5 destroyed Allied aircraft losses Blenheim IV: 3 destroyed, 30 damaged Japanese ground losses: 7 casualties reported Airbase hits 5 Airbase supply hits 1 Runway hits 23 I ran this type of battle 10 times with the following settings; Defenders 72 Ki-27 80% Cap 72 Ki-49 targets Attackers 72 Blenheim IV Average losses per dog fight (Standard / Mod) Ki-27 0.4 / 0.0 Blenheim IV 4.8 / 2.9 Airbase hits 9.1 / 19.2

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/19/2005 7:19:13 PM)
Test Result #10 Here is the Ki-49 vs the Wirraway Day Air attack on Port Moresby , at 53,91 Japanese aircraft Ki-49 Helen x 63 Allied aircraft Wirraway x 57 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-49 Helen: 2 destroyed, 30 damaged Allied aircraft losses Wirraway: 10 damaged Airbase hits 1 I ran this type of battle 10 times with the following settings; Defenders 72 Wirraway 80% Cap 72 Blenheim IV targets Attackers 72 Ki-49 Average losses per dog fight (Standard / Mod) Wirraway 0.2 / 0.0 Ki-49 1.5 / 1.6 Airbase hits 11.0 / 14.6

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/20/2005 3:24:46 AM)
Test Result #11 This is an “Uber CAP” test. At the bottom I will list the number of times out of 10 that bombers carried on and bombed the target. The actual number of planes on CAP varied from 149-220 with the normal number of planes intercepting the attack at 169. 80% of 360 is 288. It appears the mod helps mitigate the Uber CAP. I will run an Allied Uber CAP next. Day Air attack on Lae , at 54,87 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 216 Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 49 SBD Dauntless x 116 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 12 destroyed, 5 damaged Allied aircraft losses F4F-4 Wildcat: 24 destroyed, 1 damaged SBD Dauntless: 15 destroyed, 15 damaged I ran this type of battle 10 times with the following settings; Defenders 180 A6M2 80% Cap 180 A6M2 80% Cap Attackers 54 F4F-4 10% Escort 144 Dauntless Average losses per dog fight (Standard / Mod) A6M2 11.1 / 12.5 F4F 36.1 / 29.8 Dauntless 21.8 / 20.0 Airbase hits 4.3 / 12.2 Raids getting through 2 of 10 / 6 of 10

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/22/2005 6:14:50 AM)
Test Result #12 This is the inverse of the previous uber CAP test with the F4F flying hordes of CAP and the Japs trying to break through. I really like the way the mod is working in all of these tests. Planes get through the uber CAP more. Also with the standard data the A6M2 gets 1 to 1 kills even when out numbered 3 and 4 to 1. The Mod has the zero loosing when it faces these odds. Just seems right. Day Air attack on Torokina , at 63,92 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 51 D3A Val x 114 Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 141 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 27 destroyed D3A Val: 26 destroyed, 17 damaged Allied aircraft losses F4F-4 Wildcat: 35 destroyed, 40 damaged Allied ground losses: 65 casualties reported Airbase hits 5 Airbase supply hits 1 Runway hits 20 I ran this type of battle 10 times with the following settings; Defenders 180 F4F-4 80% Cap 180 F4F-4 80% Cap Attackers 54 A6M2 10% Escort 144 D3A Average losses per dog fight (Standard / Mod) F4F-4 28.8 / 19.2 A6M2 31.3 / 33.2 D3A 20.1 / 18.6 Airbase hits 4.9 / 11.0 Raids getting through 3 of 10 / 5 of 10

Sardaukar -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/22/2005 3:51:36 PM)
Airbase hits seem to more than double. That may cause problems with 2/4-engined bombers shutting down airfields too easily.

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/22/2005 5:10:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sardaukar Airbase hits seem to more than double. That may cause problems with 2/4-engined bombers shutting down airfields too easily. The last two test where hits doubled was due mostly to more raids getting though the uber CAP. If you look at the hits per raid getting through the numbers are closer, 21.5 to 20.3 and 16.3 to 20.2. The only other dramatic increase was with the Blenheim vs the Ki-27, and this is a concern of mine. Does the reduction in firepower make the low fire power platforms anemic, particularly when facing high durability bombers. That is why I will be running a series of tests on unescorted bomber raids. The losses were very close on the test with the Ki-27, so perhaps there is an anomaly with that test. More testing will tell. It maybe that an adjustment up on air to air cannons is needed to get the thing tweeked right, but I want to test it out first so I have a basis of comparison. Is there any particular test you would like to see? BTW how do you like the way the Mod handles some of the over matches like the F4U and A6 vs early allied fighters?

Sardaukar -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/22/2005 5:28:32 PM)
Well, overall it looks promising so far. Only concern I can think just now is same as yours.

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/23/2005 6:58:13 AM)
Test Result #13 Test #13 looks unlucky for the Mod. Oscars vs B25s and it keeps looking like the low fire power platforms can not down bombers. I will run some Buffalos against some Sallys next. If the tend continues it will be time to rethink the gun adjustments. Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88 Japanese aircraft Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 42 Allied aircraft B-25C Mitchell x 53 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 5 destroyed, 17 damaged D3A Val: 8 destroyed Allied aircraft losses B-25C Mitchell: 22 damaged Japanese ground losses: 82 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Airbase hits 6 Airbase supply hits 4 Runway hits 25 Aircraft Attacking: 40 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet 13 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet I ran this type of battle 10 times with the following settings; Defenders 72 Ki-43-Ib 80% Cap Attackers 72 B-25C Average losses per dog fight (Standard / Mod) Ki-43-Ib 1.6 / 0.2 B-25C 5.5 / 2.0 Airbase hits 33.5 / 37.2

Andrew Brown -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/23/2005 8:46:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DFalcon Test Result #13 Test #13 looks unlucky for the Mod. Oscars vs B25s and it keeps looking like the low fire power platforms can not down bombers. I will run some Buffalos against some Sallys next. If the tend continues it will be time to rethink the gun adjustments. Is this necessarily so bad? How hard would it be for an aircraft such as the Oscar to down a B-25?

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/23/2005 3:41:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown Is this necessarily so bad? How hard would it be for an aircraft such as the Oscar to down a B-25? Good point. Perhaps I will switch the focus of the test for a bit. I could run the Oscar, Nate etc. through some more test vs other bombers and fighters. See how much the Mod has effected low fire power planes. Then I could focus on high durability bombers like B-25s and B-17s vs a range of fighters. If these results only show in extremes like the Oscar vs B-25 it might be acceptalbe. What do you think?

Sardaukar -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/23/2005 3:58:56 PM)
You could also check if changing weapon accuracies remedies that.

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/23/2005 5:46:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sardaukar You could also check if changing weapon accuracies remedies that. Agreed. I like your idea about accuracy. If it does turn out that the adjustment to effect is not working this is what I will try. Keep the effect as it is in the standard data and drop accuracy by 25% instead. another option would be to keep the modified effect and tweek accuracy up. I am leaning more toward your idea though. Even if it does not turn out to be the magic bullet it will tell us more about how the model works. Andrew's observation is good and it is too early to abandon the initial idea. Thank you both for the input.

Andrew Brown -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/24/2005 12:56:43 AM)
One reason I would prefer to lower effectiveness rather than accuracy, is that it will HOPEFULLY lead to more damaged aircraft, and so help to reduce the number of aircraft available for operations.

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/24/2005 2:41:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown One reason I would prefer to lower effectiveness rather than accuracy, is that it will HOPEFULLY lead to more damaged aircraft, and so help to reduce the number of aircraft available for operations. I have not been monitoring damaged aircraft, but my impression is that this is what is happening. It is tougher to isolate this as antiaircraft gets in on the action.

el cid again -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/24/2005 2:44:24 PM)
quote: I have not been monitoring damaged aircraft, but my impression is that this is what is happening. It is tougher to isolate this as antiaircraft gets in on the action. Why not be scientific and take AA out of the equation? Two ways: 1) have no AA guns, or redefine AA devices with zero ceiling or some other zero field. 2) fly above the cieling of the AA you have as defined. Then it can't be hitting you.

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/24/2005 3:40:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: el cid again Why not be scientific and take AA out of the equation? I could run Sweep vs CAP. I do not think AA will fire on the Sweep mission. Does that sound right?

Sardaukar -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/24/2005 4:12:56 PM)
Maybe make the accuracy for some planes like Nate higher while dropping the firepower ?

Sardaukar -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/26/2005 1:17:18 PM)
BTW, I think Nik did that in his mod to compensate the effects for Ki-27 etc. He added accuracy to centerline MGs like nose-mounted MGs in Ki-27.

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/26/2005 6:48:53 PM)
Test #14 I continued with the Oscar I vs bombers this time the Hudson I. Although losses were lower in the Mod I do not think they are unacceptable. I tracked damaged Hudsons as well and the numbers were virtually the same per dog fight; standard was 9.8 and the Mod was 10.2. I will run the B-17 vs the Oscar next. Day Air attack on Lae , at 54,87 Japanese aircraft Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 42 Allied aircraft Hudson I x 72 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 4 destroyed, 15 damaged D3A Val: 5 destroyed Allied aircraft losses Hudson I: 3 destroyed, 14 damaged Japanese ground losses: 28 casualties reported Airbase hits 2 Runway hits 14 I ran this type of battle 10 times with the following settings; Defenders 72 Ki-43-Ib 80% Cap Attackers 72 Hudson I Average losses per dog fight (Standard / Mod) Ki-43-Ib 0.5 / 0.0 Hudson I 7.0 / 4.3 Airbase hits 28.6 / 18.0

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/26/2005 6:50:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sardaukar BTW, I think Nik did that in his mod to compensate the effects for Ki-27 etc. He added accuracy to centerline MGs like nose-mounted MGs in Ki-27. Do you know how much he adjusted it and did it have a good effect?

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/27/2005 12:20:22 AM)
Test #15 Oscar I vs B17E. Things turned out pretty much as you would expect. Damaged B17s per dogfight was the same for both standard and the Mod at 17.8 per dog fight. The B-17s scored lots of base hits in both but less in the mod. Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88 Japanese aircraft Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 42 Allied aircraft B-17E Fortress x 72 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 9 destroyed, 20 damaged D3A Val: 12 destroyed Allied aircraft losses B-17E Fortress: 21 damaged Japanese ground losses: 90 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Airbase hits 18 Airbase supply hits 4 Runway hits 91 I ran this type of battle 10 times with the following settings; Defenders 72 Ki-43-Ib 80% Cap Attackers 72 B-17E Average losses per dog fight (Standard / Mod) Ki-43-Ib 3.1 / 1.5 B-17E 1.0 / 0.1 Airbase hits 77.2 / 59.0

Sardaukar -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (11/28/2005 5:34:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DFalcon Do you know how much he adjusted it and did it have a good effect? Donno right now, but it's mentioned in readme of his mod. You can d/l it from Spooky's and check the database.

Sardaukar -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (12/9/2005 3:33:10 PM)
Any further testing done, DFalcon ?? Or are you as busy with Xmas as I am...[:D] I prefer New Years Eve anytime...[8D]

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (12/9/2005 3:43:37 PM)
Yes, my apologies. It is not Xmas but preparations for a trip. I will get some B-17 test done before I go, but it will be January before I get back at it seriously. I was going to post this with the next results, but your question makes it much easier. [:)]

DFalcon -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (12/10/2005 11:23:39 PM)
Test #16 The Japs favourite Tony vs B17E. The B-17 can still be hurt by the higher firepower Tony. Losses are down in the Mod, but not alarmingly. Damaged planes is again about the same, 14.1 per battle with standard data, 15.2 with the Mod data. The Mod recorded more hits on the airfields but this was due to 2 missions being turned back using standard data. Perhaps having the Nate and Oscar unable to threaten the high durability 4E bombers is not such a bad side effect if the more modern fighters still can. Day Air attack on Lae , at 54,87 Japanese aircraft Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 57 Allied aircraft B-17E Fortress x 61 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 3 destroyed, 17 damaged D3A Val: 7 destroyed Allied aircraft losses B-17E Fortress: 9 destroyed, 21 damaged Japanese ground losses: 80 casualties reported Airbase hits 9 Airbase supply hits 3 Runway hits 30 I ran this type of battle 10 times with the following settings; Defenders 72 KAIc 80% Cap Attackers 72 B-17E Average losses per dog fight (Standard / Mod) KAIc 1.5 / 0.7 B-17E 8.0 / 6.5 Airbase hits 40.7 / 42.6

Sardaukar -> RE: Air Combat Mod with test results (12/12/2005 5:35:10 PM)
Looks very good so far !! What do you think about increasing accuracy of MG-only armed planes (Nik-mod style) to make them to have at least some success against heavy bombers..meaning turning back planes by damaging them ? Or is that needed ?

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