Unusual Jap opening (Full Version)

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Nick E -> Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 1:02:41 AM)

I've started a PBEM game as Allies in which my opponent has not invaded anywhere at all in Luzon but instead hit Kavieng, Admiralty Is., Menado, Miri, Jesselton, Jolo, Cagayan, and several bases in N. New Guinea including Lae. KB hit Manila the first day in a port attack but then moved west. Wake was ignored. Malaya had the usual landings at Khota Baru and Songkhia. We've played only two days so far. It looks like he's trying to bypass Luzon and let it wither on the vine. I suppose it would be much easier to take in mid-1942 if it is totally out of supplies, meanwhile he has the use of the divisions that would have been tied up in Luzon. I'm tempted to keep my heavy bombers there and maybe even send some more but I know that doing so will be an enormous drain on my supplies. Has anyone ever seen this kind of opening in a PBEM game?



Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 1:08:18 AM)

I've tried something similar in the match vs MC ( see AAR). I landed at Luzon only with a 1 Bde, 1 Div and 3 SNLF plus tons of base forces. The rest of my divisions moved to conquer Darwin and Northern Oz, Java, Sumatra and Timor ...oh and Malaya.
Luzon was cut out of everything, being sorrounded by dec 25th by Jap level 4 AFs with Nells and Zeros in the, and with a HUGE Sallies Force at Aparri bombing manila every day, so eating up all the supplies...it worked greatly

BY may 42 manila was easily taken



Nick E -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 1:19:15 AM)

GH, I'll have a look at your AAR when I get a chance. In the meantime, looks like I at least want to turn replacements on for my AA units and see what I can do to strengthen the defenses of Aparri and the other large base next to it. I already have some troops headed north from the Manila area.



madflava13 -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 4:24:07 AM)

Before he can move in a ton of LBA, use your heavies to target any ports of his in range... You probably won't sink anything, but you'll damage a lot of his shipping, which slows him down and clogs his limited repair yards. Also, keep fighters over Manila/Clark as long as possible - any kills you can get now will be on his experienced pilots, saving you time down the road. Remember you can still evac planes through China if need be...

If he's going to give you the bases, keep them a thorn in his side!



madflava13 -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 4:24:57 AM)

Also, don't discount Manila as a place to hold out - the bonus you receive for fighting in the city is substantial!



tsimmonds -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 4:52:13 AM)

OTOH, the game I'm in right now (02/02/42), the allied player has divided himself evenly between Manila and Lamon Bay. Now, I have gone into the PI with a stripped down force, 3 1/2 divisions divided between northern Luzon and Naga, and his deployment is making things complicated.

I skimped on the PI force in order to

1) send 6 divisions + to Singapore (which just fell), and
2) send an unspecified force into the southwest pacific, which has already secured Rabaul and PM, and has just landed at Luganville, with further ops in prospect.

Anyway, the Lamon Bay thing has really given me something to think about. Makes it tough to move the force coming up from Naga into Manila.



esteban -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 5:12:03 AM)

Lamon Bay? Thats not a great place to threaten Naga from, because you have to march overland through Malaria country to get there.

To each their own I guess.

I think you can bypass Luzon, but unless you can take Naga, Lingayen and that other northern resource point below Aparri, (the one with the difficult name), the Allies will get a pretty substantial amount of supply from the resource centers on Luzon.




tsimmonds -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 5:18:47 AM)

It is easy to say it, not so easy to actually march your boys into Manila from Naga with 45,000 in Lamon Bay behind you. Yeah, they'd be slow leaving down the trail, and maybe you can handle Manila before they get between you and Legaspi. Remember though that the whole thing that is going on in the PI in this case begins with light ground forces for IJ.

The supply they get is irrelevant. I never count on starving them out. Just keep bombing the airfields so they can't build forts.



tsimmonds -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 3:19:58 PM)

quote:

It looks like he's trying to bypass Luzon and let it wither on the vine. I suppose it would be much easier to take in mid-1942 if it is totally out of supplies, meanwhile he has the use of the divisions that would have been tied up in Luzon.


He is probably doing this in order to concentrate maximum force for use someplace else, like in order to do away with Singapore quickly perhaps. After that is out of the way he would be able to re-deploy as needed to take care of "unfinished business". I would not assume that he is going to ignore Luzon until mid-42 though.



Tom Hunter -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 3:56:42 PM)

There are a few counter moves

You can build up in Manila so that he will have a lot of trouble taking the place when the time finally comes. See the Mogami Vs. Tom Hunter Lunacy AAR.

You can chase him around the countrside if he does not send enough troops to win. Don't bother trying to destroy the Japanese, but if you can push them back it wrecks their ability to take Luzon, and they will have to wait and send more troops.

Try slipping some blockade runners through, a little supply goes a long way. Send them from the US West coast and manage their approach carefully, watching the route and the weather.

If your opponent is careless and leaves you with bases in the NEI you can fly fighters in and out in late Spring 42. See The Imperialism AAR. The game seems to have stopped but there is some good information there.

If your creative you can significantly increase the cost of bypasssing the islands. Also think about pulling your B17s out right now, and sending them back in a few weeks when his forces have moved on to other objectives.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 7:05:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: madflava13

If he's going to give you the bases, keep them a thorn in his side!


I agree. Many Jap players under estimate the force required to take PI. They assume that they can waltz in after it has run out of supply. [:-]

This could be a problem for him if he lets you get too settled. Run supplies to PI now in single cargo ships, but send many. Send supplies to Wake to prepare it for supplying PI when the straights around Borneo are closed to you.

Don't just build up your AA units, build up all your PI infantry units. YOu have infantry and guns to spare as the US. Just doing that will make you 25% stronger.

I would send your air units out of harms way until you can actually use them for something. Most of your fighters there are worthless until you can upgrade, but if he didn't clober your P-40s at Clark field and at PH and you can avoid takening P-40 losses you could begin upgrading your other units almost immediately. Go back when you have the air power to fight him at least for a while. P-40s massed are a big headache for the Japs.

[image]local://upfiles/17264/D1575D23F38F47429777EA3807B730FA.gif[/image]



6971grunt -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 7:48:38 PM)

I haven't seen this opening before, but it appears to be an effort to concentrate on Southeast Asia/India first and leave the US to ponder it's offensive possibilities.

I might suggest since he has left Pearl alone to think of moving on Marcus Island to establish an airbase [I know it only has a capacity of 4] to threaten the mainland and establish an airscreen with Wake Island. It may also may make the Jap a little nervous about air raids on the mainland. I have used this strategy before and the Jap AI was very slow to respond.

If you want to get real crazy/aggressive, take a look at Iwo Jima early. This cuts into his convoy/supply lines. Iwo is lightly defended and can be turned into a 6 airbase [I believe that it can also be effectively defended over the long haul].

Since the Jap seems content to let the US think about its options - I suggest you take advantage by making a center thrust. Your have the battleships and carriers to protect the landings. He may be forced to move his KB toward you instead of the weak UK naval forces.

I also suggest that you use your "untouched" forces in the Phillippines to make the Jap's life "a living hell". Your air and naval forces can make the Straits of Formosa area a very difficult gauntlet to run. I would not suggest sending any more bombers to the area - use those for your center thrust.

Anyway, some thoughts. [;)]



jrlans -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 10:49:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: grunt6971

I haven't seen this opening before, but it appears to be an effort to concentrate on Southeast Asia/India first and leave the US to ponder it's offensive possibilities.

I might suggest since he has left Pearl alone to think of moving on Marcus Island to establish an airbase [I know it only has a capacity of 4] to threaten the mainland and establish an airscreen with Wake Island. It may also may make the Jap a little nervous about air raids on the mainland. I have used this strategy before and the Jap AI was very slow to respond.

If you want to get real crazy/aggressive, take a look at Iwo Jima early. This cuts into his convoy/supply lines. Iwo is lightly defended and can be turned into a 6 airbase [I believe that it can also be effectively defended over the long haul].

Since the Jap seems content to let the US think about its options - I suggest you take advantage by making a center thrust. Your have the battleships and carriers to protect the landings. He may be forced to move his KB toward you instead of the weak UK naval forces.

I also suggest that you use your "untouched" forces in the Phillippines to make the Jap's life "a living hell". Your air and naval forces can make the Straits of Formosa area a very difficult gauntlet to run. I would not suggest sending any more bombers to the area - use those for your center thrust.

Anyway, some thoughts. [;)]



Sorry grunt but i would recomend against this if you get to aggresive to early you just invite defeat. If you think OZ or India are in danger then send some US forces that way via PP. Also you can drop off your carrier aircraft at any base to lay a trap and not endanger your carriers (just dont let that base fall or you will be very short on carrier trained planes)

Also aviod taking your carriers out in the early months of the war unless KB is half a a world away literaly! The last thing you want is to lose the ablitly to project force with your carriers.

As for his opening before you can do anything with the PI you need to get supply in and thats the tough part. I would try to sneak single ships in also if your playing with allied sub doc on your subs are basicaly worthless till 43. Use them to transport as much supply as you can. You might be able to get as much as 2k a month if you use wake as a staging base for supplies and subs.



6971grunt -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 11:18:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrlans

Sorry grunt but i would recomend against this if you get to aggresive to early you just invite defeat. If you think OZ or India are in danger then send some US forces that way via PP. Also you can drop off your carrier aircraft at any base to lay a trap and not endanger your carriers (just dont let that base fall or you will be very short on carrier trained planes)

Also aviod taking your carriers out in the early months of the war unless KB is half a a world away literaly! The last thing you want is to lose the ablitly to project force with your carriers.

As for his opening before you can do anything with the PI you need to get supply in and thats the tough part. I would try to sneak single ships in also if your playing with allied sub doc on your subs are basicaly worthless till 43. Use them to transport as much supply as you can. You might be able to get as much as 2k a month if you use wake as a staging base for supplies and subs.



You might be right about Iwo, but it sure presents some interesting discussions. I do, however, believe that a quick move into Marcus Island with a RCT and engineers to support aircraft [and maybe a Marine CD Bn] would make the Jap think about what's going on and even might give him pause.

I agree that US carriers are a rather precious commodity, however, not to use them early in the war in a calculated manner might not be the best use for them. Remember the message Lincoln sent to McCellan befor the battle of Sharpsburg "If you aren't going to use your Army, do you mind if I borrow it for awhile". I feel the same way concerning US naval moves. A more aggressive [not foolish][:-] USN early in the game may throw the IJN off it's strategic line in order to deal with those pesky Americans.

I know in a game that I involved in at the moment, the USN raided Truk and cause great concern [and damage] very early in the game [i.e., 1/42] and it required the time-consuming shifting of forces to deal with the issue [I eventually sunk 2 of 3 of his carriers in 2/42 in the Bismark Sea - but the point was that it cost me valuable momentum in Southeast Asia]. Still I know that those two carriers will return as Essex Carriers in about 18 months - then, Oh joy!].

All I saying is that for the USN to play a timid game at the start may not always be the best thing - depending on what the IJN is doing at the time.

Your thoughts?[&o]



Yamato hugger -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 11:40:25 PM)

See posts 19 and 21 of my " YH v IS2m Dark Days " AAR on why you shouldnt defend at Manila.



jrlans -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/17/2005 11:57:20 PM)

Oh i agree that the american carriers can be put to good use, so long as you have a definate fix on KB. Also i tend not to engage my carriers till after they get there extra fighters to bump them up to 36, till then its just too risky for me.

Also do you realy think marcus is tennable? I would imagine that an RCT would just be more ground losses when japan decides that a lvl 4 AF that close isnt very much fun for them. How would you defend it? Marcus for me is a little too far a little to early. I perfer to fight around allied land based air power till i get at least 6 CVs



6971grunt -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/18/2005 12:42:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrlans

Oh i agree that the american carriers can be put to good use, so long as you have a definate fix on KB. Also i tend not to engage my carriers till after they get there extra fighters to bump them up to 36, till then its just too risky for me.

Also do you realy think marcus is tennable? I would imagine that an RCT would just be more ground losses when japan decides that a lvl 4 AF that close isnt very much fun for them. How would you defend it? Marcus for me is a little too far a little to early. I perfer to fight around allied land based air power till i get at least 6 CVs



It seems to me that the vast majority of Japanese Army and Naval resources are concentrated in the area of the South China Sea. This leaves very little "boots-on-the-ground" types to effectively resist the initial invasion and it's a long time before they gather the troop strength necessary to conduct counter-invasion [hopefully by that time this base has been built up sufficiently to resist any such counter-invasion]. It would be hoped that their other area "commitments" prevent them from effectively intervening in any meaningful manner. Additionally, would the Japs be willing to invest what would be necessary to re-take the island, given their other military objectives.

I guess we are talking in terms of different playing styles - which is just fine[8D]. Your points are well taken and constituted a safer way to conduct the USN, I tend to be more of a risk-taker.[8|]



tsimmonds -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/18/2005 3:29:28 AM)

quote:

Additionally, would the Japs be willing to invest what would be necessary to re-take the island, given their other military objectives.


Oh, yeah. If there is stuff to kill, IJA will be there. There is always some nasty LCU or other that can be shaken lose from somewhere. Hell, chances are, there's one already saddled up waiting to go.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/18/2005 3:46:56 AM)

Points is points. If the allies are going to serve them up on a platter, I'd take it.



Sneer -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/18/2005 10:24:14 AM)

same to me Yamato
JPN battleline and KB is free of duty in Jan 42 - later I can spare some LCU and kill rest of fisherman



niceguy2005 -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/18/2005 6:25:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

Additionally, would the Japs be willing to invest what would be necessary to re-take the island, given their other military objectives.


Oh, yeah. If there is stuff to kill, IJA will be there. There is always some nasty LCU or other that can be shaken lose from somewhere. Hell, chances are, there's one already saddled up waiting to go.

Agreed, the Japs can take anything they want anytime they want early in the war, for the most part. Don't forget that the Japanese start the game with about 50 divisions. That's 50. That doesn't even count the BDEs, Nav Guard, NLF and SNLF forces. About 20 or so of those Div are in China and some, I don't know how many are in Manchuria.

So if Japan wants to attack Marcus Is. it will take it. The fact that he has not yet taken Wake is probably not a sign of a lack of resources. It smells like a trap to me. Remember that Japan wins by forcing you into a decisive battle early in the war.

[image]local://upfiles/17264/4B92362887944936AEE3A1D011EA9004.gif[/image]



6971grunt -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/19/2005 12:17:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

Additionally, would the Japs be willing to invest what would be necessary to re-take the island, given their other military objectives.


Oh, yeah. If there is stuff to kill, IJA will be there. There is always some nasty LCU or other that can be shaken lose from somewhere. Hell, chances are, there's one already saddled up waiting to go.

Agreed, the Japs can take anything they want anytime they want early in the war, for the most part. Don't forget that the Japanese start the game with about 50 divisions. That's 50. That doesn't even count the BDEs, Nav Guard, NLF and SNLF forces. About 20 or so of those Div are in China and some, I don't know how many are in Manchuria.

So if Japan wants to attack Marcus Is. it will take it. The fact that he has not yet taken Wake is probably not a sign of a lack of resources. It smells like a trap to me. Remember that Japan wins by forcing you into a decisive battle early in the war.

[image]local://upfiles/17264/4B92362887944936AEE3A1D011EA9004.gif[/image]


If the Allied player is fighting a delaying action in Southeast Asia, the fact that there is potential for losses by the invasion of Marcus Island should be of little concern since the allied player is willing to take losses to gain time.

I am still of the opinion that Marcus Island is viable and could be held - the USA has plenty of Divisions, etc., to spare [Hawaii alone has several] and more to come. The Jap is just speading out and may lose stragetic focus by rounding up units from other theaters [i.e., trying to root-out PA Divisions with SNLFs ain't that easy].

However, I understand those who feel that such is just "hanging meat out for the lion".[&o]

To get back to the original question as to the unusual, japanese opening - A good friend of mine, nicknamed "The Weasel", has argued that the Japanese player should ignore Pearl Harbor and concentrate the KB on the British Navy [although not a novel idea[8|]. After running several hypotheticals, it appears to me that he may have a point but I'm not sure how that would effect the "end-game". I have seen that a strike at Pearl may have limited and sometimes frustrating results for the Jap. Furthermore, it appears that the KB hanging around to conduct a second strike at Pearl has very little productive value [i.e., additional ship damage seems de minimis]. I wonder if others have seen like results?[&:]

If this is true, the Jap may be better off "playing" with the Royal Navy then turning of the pre-WWI USN Battleships.[X(]




Yamato hugger -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/19/2005 12:31:45 AM)

I faced the KB vs Singapore gambit. I lost Repulse. PoW got out with 98% damage (I had to pop into a few ports to cut its flooding damage, but managed to get her out and on the way to the US west coast). I lost about 25 merchant ships getting the Malaya army out (I considered that reasonable losses vs losing the whole army). Jap player didnt keep the KB together and I would sick bait units out to keep his planes flying. When his carriers were out of av gas, I'd dash. Had 3 divisions plus a bunch of lesser units in PM (24th, 25th, and 2nd Marine) and III corps HQ, so I think he would have been hard pressed to take that. The 9 US BBs were moving to Darwin to disrupt his landings on Java (if he ever got around to doing it) and the carriers had deposited thier aircraft on Oz, and they were making their way to Java as well. He took Palembang and clouds of B17s were raining bombs on his oil fields. Wasnt pretty.

Leaving no threat in the eastern Pacific isnt a good idea.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/19/2005 12:51:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: grunt6971

If this is true, the Jap may be better off "playing" with the Royal Navy then turning of the pre-WWI USN Battleships.[X(]



I think it depends on the over all strategy of the Japanese player. However, IMHO, PH is the best option. Here's why: the RN can easily be countered in 42 because it lacks air support; if the allied player uses Sing surface ships in 42, there seems about a 50% probability that the will be sunk before they can cause any significant damage. Further, the US BBs, while old and outdated are very useful (raiding, shore bombardment, AA platform). An attack on PH usually sinks one to two of these with considerable sys damage to the rest. Those with high sys damge usually end up on the WC clogging up the repair ship yards.

In one of my games, my opponent spent the first two days at PH, sinking two and damaging most of the rest. I slipped and let POW and Repulse get sunk on a raid. Now I have one undamaged BB for the pacific ocean and one for the Indian ocean. [X(]

If your going for points I think PH is a bad choice, but if your going for strategic positioning, its one of your best choices.

[image]local://upfiles/17264/41381E8ED57C4AB192EDD7DD89F998D5.gif[/image]



tsimmonds -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/19/2005 7:13:49 AM)

quote:

If the Allied player is fighting a delaying action in Southeast Asia, the fact that there is potential for losses by the invasion of Marcus Island should be of little concern since the allied player is willing to take losses to gain time.


If you are playing a game that can be decided on points, this is a fallacy. Points earned by the enemy for destroyed friendly materiel can never be erased, and can only be answered by the destruction of three or four times as many points belonging to the enemy. It is an unfortunate fact of this game's design that VPs for destroying materiel are the primary object. Of course if you agree to ignore VPs, this no longer applies. But then you need some other mechanism for determining victory. I submit that in this case, an early invasion of Marcus (or Wake, or anyplace else in the Central Pacific) is still irrelevant. It merely exposes your force to destruction in detail.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/19/2005 9:08:22 AM)

Marcus doesnt threaten the Japs in any way. You cant keep it supplied (unless you are willing to offer up even tons more points running convoys in), it isnt big enough base to be a bomber threat (unless you take months to expand it to its maximum which is only level 5). There is just nothing of strategic importance within range to make it worth the allies time that early. You are just giving away points for naught.

No matter how many troops you put there the Japs can bring more. OR they simply cut off your supplies and turn it into a giant prison camp.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/19/2005 4:36:23 PM)

I would say if you want to do something with Marcus, FT some units there to take it (is there a Jap garrison) and use it for the sole purpose of ferrying planes into or out of PI



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/20/2005 12:39:42 AM)

To come back with the initial question, I think there are several ways to make your opponent think it was a bad idea to bypass PI.

The obvious is to use it as a submarine and PT base. Japanese convoys will sail NW of PI between Japan and SE Asia and intercepting them from Luzon is possible.

I will also move my heavy bombers out of PI, but bring them some time later and bomb Taiwan oilfields or Honk Kong repair yard.

If Japanese forces land on Luzon with less than one division, send half of the PI Army and try to defeat them. Aparri is probably too far for that, your troops may be cut from your main army. But Naga and Legaspi are OK. Trying to keep all ressource bases is a good idea.

Always keep PBY in PI so that you can see Japanese ships move. It is a bad idead to send 2 divisions retake Apparri if 150 Japanese AP are sailing towards Lingayen.




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/20/2005 12:55:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: madflava13

Also, don't discount Manila as a place to hold out - the bonus you receive for fighting in the city is substantial!


Contradicts the historical situation where Mac declared it an open city and fell back to Bataan, which in this game is a walk in the park. Anyone know exactly why this was the case? Macs sentiment for the populace?



Nick E -> RE: Unusual Jap opening (11/20/2005 8:15:19 AM)

I'd like to thank whoever wrote about shock attacking the Japs when they first enter Changsha, can't remember exactly where, probably in an AAR. I got a 7-1 on them, there were two divisions and two support units although a third division was on the way.

A lot of my air units in Malaya got chewed up attacking the Khota Bharu invasion force because my opponent finally put Zeros on LR Cap to defend it, I had not bothered sending any fighters on escort missions. Maybe Buffalos on escort might not have helped much anyway.

Ron, I think the reason Bataan held out as long as it did historically because the geography of the peninsula favored defense. The Japs could attack frontally only along a narrow front. The main disadvantage of defending Manila from a military point of view would have been the need to provide food for all of the civilians if the city were under siege, something the game does not take into account. The game will only use supplies for the military forces that are in a hex. I'm sure that even back in 1941 the population of Manila was quite large.



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