RE: Problems with CV's (Full Version)

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Ron Saueracker -> RE: Problems with CV's (11/29/2005 12:15:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

But they fixed air-patrol problem in 1.7xx.


Like they fixed the disappearing units, and the leader bug(s) in 1.40, 1.50, 1.60? [8|]


Apples and oranges. Bugs are difficult, booboos just need someone to say "Oops, my bad" and fix it.




dtravel -> RE: Problems with CV's (11/29/2005 12:22:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

But they fixed air-patrol problem in 1.7xx.


Like they fixed the disappearing units, and the leader bug(s) in 1.40, 1.50, 1.60? [8|]


Apples and oranges. Bugs are difficult, booboos just need someone to say "Oops, my bad" and fix it.



Yes and no. I suspect that it was a fundamental part of the initial design of the game. In order to change that you would have to literally re-write significant parts of the code from scratch.

If A, then B. If B, then C. Etc., etc. until you reach J. But if it turns out that "If A, then K", then you have to re-do everything that follows.




Sparrow -> RE: Problems with CV's (11/29/2005 12:44:11 AM)

G'Day Gentlemen

Newbie here

If I'm reading these threads correctly, you can tweek your game through an editor function ... yes?
Where is this blighter and how do you access it?

I have some ideas I wish to check out down the track once I've put some hours under my training belt.

This is Sparrow [8D]




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Problems with CV's (11/29/2005 12:50:58 AM)

Go into the scenario folder and you will see both a data editor and a scenario editor. Big step, Sparrow. Have fun.[8D]




erstad -> RE: Problems with CV's (11/29/2005 7:31:19 AM)

One other possibility I didn't see in this thread is that all of the sorties have been expended (e.g., the carrier is out of ordinance). This is different than ops points.

Open the previous turn, and look at the "MS:" field in the upper left of the task force screen. The number in parentheses is the percentage of sorties remaining; if it's small, then that could well be the problem. Has this carrier TF launched strikes since the last time it resupplied?




spence -> RE: Problems with CV's (12/1/2005 12:30:26 AM)

I didn't realize that the effect of the CV coordination rule was to BOTH fragment the Allied strikes AND reduce the number of planes even launched. ONLY THE FIRST EFFECT HAS ANY HISTORICAL JUSTIFICATION. THE LATTER IS PURE BOGUS.
I've been reading "Shattered Sword", the new book on the battle of Midway and had reached the conclusion that the CV coordination rule is more or less appropriate in its effects (although I think it ought to be an experience thing for the individual carrier which has nothing to do with the date but rather more with what that carrier has done in the past).

Somehow however it ought to effect Japanese CAP. They had no effective controller for the CAP over KB - each carrier managed its own. "Managed" is something of an overstatement since the officer who "managed" the CAP also oversaw all flight deck operations; depended on lookouts, smoke screens and shell splashes as his sensors and communicated with "his" CAP on the same radio frequency as anybody communicated with any airborne IJN aircraft (CAP, strike and search). Essentially the CAP consisted of a variable number of totally independent 2 or 3 plane shotais each under its own shotai leader. The system worked but just barely so long as the enemy attacked in relatively small numbers from a single direction. The first time it was put to a real test of its effectivenes was approx 1020, 4 June, 1942. BTW, it flunked the test.

The idea of a Fighter Direction Center in a CIC equipped with radar, dedicated communications, and specially trained personnel apparently didn't begin to formulate in the IJNs doctrine until somewhere around late 1944. By then, such thoughts were mostly just something to keep a few extra and shipless officers busy until the surrender.

Incidentally, the idea of a ring defense, such as was always practiced by USN CVTFs was not adopted by the IJN until 1944. At Midway most of KBs DDs were on picket duty 15 km from the carriers. Each carrier had the direct fire support of only 1 DD: its plane guard. Chikuma, Tone, Nagara were relatively nearby but out of effective 25 mm range (approx 8 km). Kirishima and Haruna were at the same distance as the cruisers. Any Japanese ship under attack was supposed to manuever violently to avoid the attack and the spacing between ships was so that would be possible. But such manuevers rendered the fire control solutions for the manuevering ship's heavy AA totally worthless. And to make matters worse, the ammo feed for the 25 mm AA was from 15 round drums, which obviously needed to be changed a lot during an attack. Thus gunners generally only fired one barrel at a time (essentially halving the effective number of guns). In point of fact a Japanese CV TF consisted of something similar to what the Allies have to do in the game only even smaller: just individual CVs and their plane guard DD dealing with whatever gets thru the CAP by themselves.

The game models the evolution of USN carrier doctrine. It essentially doesn't model the IJN doctrine at all with the one exception that it allows multiple carrier TFs to launch well coordinated offensive strikes - something only the Japanese PRACTICED before Pearl Harbor. But defense of the fleet was not well integrated into Japanese doctrine. The continual independent recycling of the CAP by all 4 carriers prevented the spotting of any kind of strike once the Americans were located at Midway. In the account in Shattered Sword, which is incredibly detailed mainly from the Japanese side, I have seemingly "watched" the Japanese defense become more and more unglued as each American squadron goes into the meatgrinder all morning, finally but by now almost inevitably culminating in the attack by the 3 SBD squadrons that destroyed the heart of the KB. Absolutely great book.




jwilkerson -> RE: Problems with CV's (12/1/2005 2:06:00 AM)

quote:

doesn't model the IJN doctrine at all with the one exception that it allows multiple carrier TFs to launch well coordinated offensive strikes - something only the Japanese PRACTICED before Pearl Harbor. But defense of the fleet was not well integrated into Japanese doctrine. The continual independent recycling of the CAP by all 4 carriers prevented the spotting of any kind of strike once the Americans were located at Midway. In the account in Shattered Sword, which is incredibly detailed mainly from the Japanese side, I have seemingly "watched" the Japanese defense become more and more unglued as each American squadron goes into the meatgrinder all morning, finally but by now almost inevitably culminating in the attack by the 3 SBD squadrons that destroyed the heart of the KB.


Does this book give credit to Admiral King for giving Genda the idea of pulling of the Japanese carriers together in one TF ? I've seen a quote from Genda, saying he got the idea ( late 1940 ) from watching a news reel of 4 US carriers operating together - which pretty much has to be the manuvers off Panama canal when King was running the carriers and was trying promulgate running them together in one TF.

The USN had debates about single carrier TF versus multiple carrier TF ... both ideas having their proponents .. interestingly before Midway .. King was a proponent of multiple carrier TFs .. after Midway he "ordered" the USN to operate in single carrier TFs with a separate admiral in charge of each. We can speculate that he wanted to avoid a reverse Midway - seeing that massed carriers was a heck of a risk. Between late 42 and mid-43 the debate raged mostly between Ramsey and Sherman commanding Sara and Enterprise respectively. However, the debate was mostly moot at this point due to lack of carriers with which to form multi-carrier TFs. However, by mid-43 with the number of carriers increasing and the AA effectiveness also increasing - the virtually unanimous decision was made to form multi-carrier task forces. Thus finally realising King's pre-war vision of carrier task forces.

Spence and I have been involved in this "debate" from day one of WITP ... and my position is pretty much that tactical organization of the fleet should be up to the players and not hard coded into the game. There are advantages and disadvantages to operating the carriers together or in separate TFs all in the same hex. Unfortunately the game does exactly represent the RL tradeoffs but there are tradeoffs in the game. CAP effectiness being the primary issue - the ability of all CAP to cover everything in the hex with a high probability - minimizes one of the trade offs of operating "separately" ... also the ability to launch strikes which form up and reach the target at the same time, is more difficult when operating separately - another trade off not represented in the game. The only real advantage in the game of putting the carriers in the same TF is slightly less risk that they wander off into the wrong hex during reaction ... and higher AA defense ( Japanese carriers especially have higher AA values than all other IJN ships ).

These thoughts coupled with the "CV Strike coordination" penalty applied to US CVs virtually forces the US player to operate in single CV TFs in 1942 ... increasing to 2 CV TFs in 1943 ... and then the 3-5 CV/CVL TFs from 1944 on ... with as many times as we've heard reasoning about how players should be free to make their own mistakes ... this strike coordination penalty stands out as a gleaming red light asking to get removed one day !

But also having the game offer the correct trade-offs of operating together, versus operating separately and then giving the players the choice would be my preference. And I know I've said all this before - but it has been a while - so here I am saying it again !







spence -> RE: Problems with CV's (12/1/2005 7:14:32 AM)

In the game, the Japanese should have an advantage in putting together a well coordinated strike package.
They should also suffer a serious degradation in way of defense compared to the USN. With 4 carriers at Midway they managed to get get 42 Zeros into the CAP just before the fatal US uncoordinated strikes arrived (Yorktowns strike was in fact coordinated). But because nobody was in possession of the big picture and thus able to direct the CAP to best advantage the 3 SBD squadrons got a free ride to the heart of the KB. And the KB depended on its CAP more than the USN to ward off enemy a/c. If an enemy a/c got through/avoided the CAP it essentially faced only the flak from the carrier itself with only a tiny bit of help from its plane guard DD. Very much unlike the USN where right from the start an enemy penetrating the CAP had to face the flak from many warships gathered in a tight 4-5000 yd DIAMETER circle around the CV. Just not the same thing.
BTW Shattered Sword is very well documented. The loss of each plane during the battle, oddly enough even more so for the Japanese in fact, is mentioned. Just for fun, I guess I'll mention that against the US VF pilots, the A6M and its pilots did not fare that well at all. When the 42 Zeros more or less got sucked into attacking VT-3 and its six escorting Wildcats (and hence ignoring the 3 SBD squadrons also approaching simultaneously) they lost 5 of their number to 2 of the VF group and didn't even manage to prevent some of VT-3 from launching their torpedos. They certainly demolished VT-3 but the cost was a lot higher than KB could afford.




Poku -> RE: Problems with CV's (12/1/2005 9:42:46 PM)

Thank you for an understandable explanation Dave!!!




John 3rd -> RE: Problems with CV's (12/1/2005 10:58:41 PM)

I just spoke about Shattered Sword on the Yamaguchi thread. PEOPLE NEED TO READ THAT BOOK! It really takes to task many false assumptions made about the battle and the Japanese decision process within it.




Nikademus -> RE: Problems with CV's (12/1/2005 11:16:32 PM)

Another very good source is Mark Piette's "Sunburst" which chornicles the developement history of the IJNAF. It documents much of what is being mentioned about Shattered Sword (a future purchase as it sounds interesting)





John 3rd -> RE: Problems with CV's (12/1/2005 11:35:10 PM)

I haven't bought Sunburst yet...I love Kaigun and want to purchase that one too...




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Problems with CV's (12/1/2005 11:43:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Another very good source is Mark Piette's "Sunburst" which chornicles the developement history of the IJNAF. It documents much of what is being mentioned about Shattered Sword (a future purchase as it sounds interesting)




You must have a darn decent home library now, Steve.




Skyros -> RE: Problems with CV's (12/2/2005 8:10:41 PM)

Just ordered it for my Christmas present from the kids. GEE girls how did you know I wanted this book!![:D]

Sunburst is very good too.
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I just spoke about Shattered Sword on the Yamaguchi thread. PEOPLE NEED TO READ THAT BOOK! It really takes to task many false assumptions made about the battle and the Japanese decision process within it.






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