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RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 12:26:15 AM

Veldor

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From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

But Ravinhood's post (#59) serves as my motivation here. When investing a lot of time and effort playing a monster game, the player should be assured that the opponent isn't cheating. Whatever I can do to provide that assurance, by how I write the code, I will try to do. If a hack exists to enable you to have extra units (for example), then when the attack orders are executed on your copy of the game, the attack is a smashing success. But when it is executed on the opponent's copy, the extra units aren't there and things don't add up. The program detects the mismatch in the unit lists (or map terrain, or available build points, whatever). If the opponent's copy of the game databases don't produce the same results as yours, then the game reports corrupted files, and that the players have to jointly agree to correct them. People can still waste your time of course. You just will know that they are and can stop playing against them immediately, when they try to cheat.

The example I gave was just one I quickly found. A hack for the program your talking about would allow the person running it to, for instance, input any die roll result they wanted thus it would work in a multiplayer PBEM game and be basically undetectable. You can do everything in God's creation to make sure that can't happen. But, just like piracy, it would become a war where the hackers will still outthink you and make a hack around it. Then you have to counter prevent it in the new version, and so forth.

That's why many don't bother in the first place. I suppose like trying to fight pirates. There will always be cheaters (and hackers to help them).

As to why people hack games like Crown of Glory, its as much for the challenge in it as it is to actually cheat. Some find it fun to see how much knowledge and power they have vs others. Its the same reason many viruses are written or why people hack into company networks etc. Mostly bragging rights.

Wargames are as much targets as any other game because smart people play them and thus, on average, probably have more programming and/or hacking talents.

Hackers also tend to have a lot of time on their hands, and too much technical knowledge with no place to apply it (Perhaps residing in a foreign country where they are under-employed). etc.

The irony is, the better you make your code or the harder you make it to cheat at your game, the more the hacker community will want to "hack it" just to prove their stength over yours. Again, just like Piracy.

Lets face it, most people love a good challenge...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 61

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 3:06:18 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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I always think of hackers as people who like to break things, burn things, vandalize buildings. They don't have the skill and/or temperment to build, so they destroy. Building things is many orders of magnitude harder than destroying them. After all, if you wait long enough, entropy will eventually destroy everything without you having to do anything at all. Entropy won't cause bricks to become mortared into place to create a house though.

There is also something else at work here, in that building things requires creativity - to create something from nothing. Hacking focuses on what has been created by others and seeks to destroy it. A lot like lopping off the noses of all those Greek and Roman statues. The hackers might believe they are being clever, but they really are just triumphantly displaying their inability to create anything of value. Sort of a "See how useless I am!" claim to fame.

As for people loving a good challenge, don't we pick our challenges rather carefully, before investing part of our limited lifetimes to them? Hacking other people's programs is well within my skill set, but I have negative (less than none) interest in doing so; I have no interest in taking a sledge hammer to the walls of the room I am sitting in either, though that is clearly within my skill set too. And just to cover all the bases, I have no interest in knocking down the walls of the room you are sitting in either. Hackers apparently do. I wonder what they would do if other people didn't create software for them?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 62

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 6:21:38 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I always think of hackers as people who like to break things, burn things, vandalize buildings. They don't have the skill and/or temperment to build, so they destroy.

I don't really agree on this point. Take wireless networking for instance. It takes a good deal of ability to set a large one up securely but far more understanding to hack into one (or that is assuming your not just running some program that does it). You basically have to know everything about how they are built, designed, and deployed to hack around them. But even with programming, on average, those I know or have known are very very capable.

quote:

There is also something else at work here, in that building things requires creativity - to create something from nothing. Hacking focuses on what has been created by others and seeks to destroy it. A lot like lopping off the noses of all those Greek and Roman statues. The hackers might believe they are being clever, but they really are just triumphantly displaying their inability to create anything of value. Sort of a "See how useless I am!" claim to fame.

As for people loving a good challenge, don't we pick our challenges rather carefully, before investing part of our limited lifetimes to them? Hacking other people's programs is well within my skill set, but I have negative (less than none) interest in doing so; I have no interest in taking a sledge hammer to the walls of the room I am sitting in either, though that is clearly within my skill set too. And just to cover all the bases, I have no interest in knocking down the walls of the room you are sitting in either. Hackers apparently do. I wonder what they would do if other people didn't create software for them?

On this point I entirely agree, but I suppose I could argue that they might possess a different kind of creativity as sometimes viruses and hacking methods are, in and of themselves, innovative and creative in there new approach. But they certainly lack an overall creative ability that would allow them perhaps to create an entire work themselves, and not just pieces.

I would not defend hackers anymore than I would terrorists, but to an extent they often share a common problem. The aforementioned under-employment or total lack of employment.

Its hard for you or I to comprehend because we are gainfully employed and enjoy many comforts of life. Even were you or I to wish we could brag about hacking this or that, we probably value not losing what we have more than that. Not so if you have absolutely nothing.

Hacking, and those who crack games and hence allow for piracy, is a sort of "terrorism" approach applied to hollywood and corporations seen as greedy and wealthy. A few I've known were from Serbian nations who just cant get any job in technology period. And aren't business savy enough or have the money to start anything up on their own. And they are literally "crying out" to show the world their talents and abilities. This is also true of artists I've dealt with from similar nations who often do do brilliant work for next to no money but ultimately have proven, at least to me, to be pretty unreliable due I suppose to the total instability of their lives and nation for that matter.

Now if you live in the US, Britain, or any other similar such country you've absolutely no excuse at all.

Never underestimate the enemy...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 63

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 11:07:36 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Part of your point seems to be that the hackers don't have the resources to build, only to hack.

I wrote my first computer game starting with a blank sheet of paper and a computer. Given how cheap disks are, I wouldn't even need the paper now-a-days. The hackers have access to computers and the internet (apparently). That should be enough to create something useful - given enough time. Say, about the length of time it takes to hack somebody else's code? Or does it take longer to create than to destroy?

I don't buy into your view that hacking requires particular talent. It's more of a stubbornness to pick a lock. A fascination with lock picking tools helps. A single minded focus on breaking in. If that same energy and focus could be applied to creation, then why not?

quote:

Take wireless networking for instance. It takes a good deal of ability to set a large one up securely but far more understanding to hack into one (or that is assuming your not just running some program that does it). You basically have to know everything about how they are built, designed, and deployed to hack around them.

Knowing how something works requires only the most minute iota of the understanding it takes to build it. What about all the lines that Shakespeare rejected? When we view a finished product, we do not see all the rejected designs, all the mistakes that were made, all the hours of agonizing over which way is best, and will it work? Sculptors take away all that should not be there to reveal the beauty of the art hidden within. Builders struggle to get the design specifications just right, so the bridge will remain standing for over a hundred years, and not bankrupt the city that is paying for its construction. That keyboard you are using is just one in a long line of keyboards that have evolved because some designer tried (and probably is still trying) to improve it and make it work better.

If you listed all the tasks required to set up that wireless network, going back into the history of the design effort, the physics of wireless communication, the coordination of the financing to pay for the companies that make all the component parts,... And then list all the tasks that the hacker had to do to break into it. Well, the hacker read a couple of books and understood them. I'm suppose to be impressed? Build something that makes the world a better place, and I will stand up and applaud loud and long, acknowledging your accomplishments. Hey, I am sort of unusual in that I really appreciate people who do rather mundane jobs well. I still remember this guy 25 years ago who checked the oil in my car by cleaning the dipstick, measuring the oil level, and then repeating the procedure 2 more times just to make sure he got an accurate reading. He did that job exceptionally well, and I am still impressed to this very day. But hackers? Just another criminal element (if they profit from it) or vandals (if they don't).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 64

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 12:40:01 PM

Veldor

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From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Part of your point seems to be that the hackers don't have the resources to build, only to hack.

Ok so as not to make it seem like I'm giving hackers a positive spin, let me take a different psychological approach....

Many hackers have a self-esteem issue. With building comes risk of failure, probably a high risk especially the first few times, and often less respect earned for the final product. Hacking earns more immediate respect of equally troubled and misguided peers.
The subsequent revolving effect spawns a sub-culture, if you will, of like minded individuals. Perhaps the polar opposite to this would be the open source community. But often contributors to said community are highly successful and have money, don't do drugs etc. Likewise the conditions under which many hackers live may tend to include such other illegal practices.

quote:

I wrote my first computer game starting with a blank sheet of paper and a computer. Given how cheap disks are, I wouldn't even need the paper now-a-days. The hackers have access to computers and the internet (apparently). That should be enough to create something useful - given enough time. Say, about the length of time it takes to hack somebody else's code?

See above.

quote:

I don't buy into your view that hacking requires particular talent. It's more of a stubbornness to pick a lock. A fascination with lock picking tools helps. A single minded focus on breaking in. If that same energy and focus could be applied to creation, then why not?

I'm also talking about reverse engineering an entire software product and understanding it enough, without any code comments or structure, to alter it in such a way as to allow various forms of cheating and or to disable copy protection checks included within it. It is very much a specialized skill as are, in many but not all cases, more hardware oriented hacking.

quote:

Knowing how something works requires only the most minute iota of the understanding it takes to build it. What about all the lines that Shakespeare rejected? When we view a finished product, we do not see all the rejected designs, all the mistakes that were made, all the hours of agonizing over which way is best, and will it work? Sculptors take away all that should not be there to reveal the beauty of the art hidden within. Builders struggle to get the design specifications just right, so the bridge will remain standing for over a hundred years, and not bankrupt the city that is paying for its construction. That keyboard you are using is just one in a long line of keyboards that have evolved because some designer tried (and probably is still trying) to improve it and make it work better.

Being good at designing usually comes with experience, or at least with some failed attempts. Again its been described to me by some in the business as a lack of opportunity. If a hacker decided to re-apply himself to something more positive exactly what would that be? What kind of program? Even if he/she had an idea whose to say they have any basis for coming up with one or that its of any value? They don't have design skills but they have developed a different specialized skillset. Oddly one of far less value were opportunities to ever open up to them.

quote:

If you listed all the tasks required to set up that wireless network, going back into the history of the design effort, the physics of wireless communication, the coordination of the financing to pay for the companies that make all the component parts,... And then list all the tasks that the hacker had to do to break into it. Well, the hacker read a couple of books and understood them. I'm suppose to be impressed? Build something that makes the world a better place, and I will stand up and applaud loud and long, acknowledging your accomplishments.

Yes true but your talking about something hoards of people achieved, not one person stuck in a hovel in whats practically a 3rd world european country (oddly true though that internet access does seemsto be easily available overseas :))

quote:

Hey, I am sort of unusual in that I really appreciate people who do rather mundane jobs well.

I absolutely agree but most who do that end up doing better things or getting promotions. Of course the world isn't always fair that way but in general that would mean a person that isn't as lazy as the rest of us and has good work ethic etc. Pretty easy to get far with just those 2 traits IMO and experience.

quote:

But hackers? Just another criminal element (if they profit from it) or vandals (if they don't).

Most (99%) don't make a dime. If anything it actually eats up the money they do have. The only ones making money these days are the bootleggers. And of course they make millions in some cases in markets like Asia etc. Though there are a few recent local cases, even here in chicago, of people mass burning cd's and selling them (in the 10's of thousands of cd's).

Ever wonder why you can buy every MS product new on Ebay for $10 or why you can get every Adobe product for a mere $25? The picture posts look legit and so do the cd's.. but surprise surprise they aren't legit (Not that the buyer often has to even care).

The consulting company I work for employs several "hacker types" because its a highly sought after skillset for would-be worried corporations. Their jobs often seem fun in comparison to some others. Well even from a security consulting standpoint we've been hired to have a person walk into a company and see how far they can get. Only the CIO is aware of whats going on. You initially use a few methods to figure out a single IT persons name (even first name only will often do) before you go onsite. The hardest part is usually making it past reception but there are lots of techniques used. Walk in after lunch time "Hey Im back from lunch working on that computer problem with Bob".(when is there not a computer problem?). and walk on by. Go up to any user in the company "Hey Im a consultant working with bob in IT on the network issues can I test our chances on your machine real quick". "OKay whats your logon name and password?" (success rate on that question something like 95%) Even walk into the server room, pickup a backup tape and walk out (usually the last thing done).

Personally, as proof of how insecure and worthless ANY level of encryption is, I've personally obtained and stolen a CIOs password right in front of them in less than 30 seconds. Here is how you do it (after them accepting your challenge of course).
1. Say "I'm just gonna pull the power plug out of the back of your computer to start things off".
2. Place a $20 ebay obtainable keyboard bug between the keyboard and computer (Looks EXACTLY like a tiny keyboard adapter).
3. Plug power cable back in (just a decoy to cover the placement) "Okay just go ahead and let your computer start up as normal and just do something in any program (hence logging on)"
4. Say "I already know your password" to which they respond "HOW!!? you havent even touched the computer yet!"
5. Walk over to the keyboard, launch wordpad, press a few special keys and the bug dumps every key press including their logon and password info.

Any employee can leave this bug and get access to payroll info or any file or system etc. Or anyone else that can gain access to the building if only briefly. And thats with the $20 version. The professional ones dont even require physical retrieval... they have wireless transmitters.. They've been left in place for months even in the IT department and no ones ever thought anything of them.

The moral of the story here, the ignorance many of us have to whats really going on around us or to how insecure our information, data, networks, or program code is. Better technical skills a hacker may not always have, but if they still manage to outsmart you, well then you've still lost haven't you?

I guess, having met or known many and having seen what they can achieve, I've grown to respect many of them. Not as contributing members of society or anything like that, but perhaps in a similar way to respecting how crafty the guy was who stole 300 million dollars by altering the way fractions of a penny are rounded (ala the movie Office Space lol)...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 65

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 4:48:23 PM

ravinhood

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You guys got it all wrong. Hackers are the ones who make anit-virus programs like Norten and PC doctor and Symatec! ;) It's always been my belief that many of these are in cahoots with the other so these companies can sell milllions of copies of their anit-virus programs. ;) I'll believe that to my dying day.

It's kinda funny for 10 years I never used a virus protection program whatsoever. Always just downloaded the latest fix from Microsoft for the wurm virues that would pop up from time to time. Then there was a special deal for PCdoctor for like $20, so, thought I would give it a shot. Lol it found 142 items on my system, things I have no clue what they did or were doing to my system. I've never really had any issues with my system running slow or gawd forbid identity theft or any of the games I played online like mmorpgs password ripped. It's a nice little program sends me an update DAILY of some new virus or spyware or whatever creeping around the internet. Are they legit? lol I don't know, could be just some garbage files to make it look like viruses and stuff are entering the internet daily and at a constant rate.

In this capitalist society we live in I wouldn't put anything past anyone anymore to make a BUCK! Me on the other hand all I am interested in is SAVING A BUCK! I guess this is the constant war between consumer and distributer. One thing is for certain, you can't put all the pirates in the world in jail so how yah gonna stop them? Anything that can be coded can be decoded. But, you know what? I blame the mfg of cd burning roms and copy programs moreso in this case. See they are out to make a BUCK also. When you buy a book at a store, do you get a copy machine? lol But, now with fast easy internet downloads of just about anything and everything, piracy and hacking is really taking off. Shoulda stayed with "DIALUP" it was slowwwwwww still is slowwwwwww, but, made pirating less attractive.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 66

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 8:58:19 PM

pasternakski

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Yah. I'd like to see a new WiR game, too.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 67

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 9:09:30 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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An interesting discussion. The woes of corporations are many.

To bring this thread back on topic...

What are the scales of a new War in Russia game that people would want to buy and play? By scale I mean the size of the units (land and air), the time interval for each turn, the land area per hex (we are using hexagons, aren't we?), the different types of terrain included on the map, and the duration of the game. For example, what I am working on currently (MWIF) has different scenarios for starting at different times during the war (June 22, 1941; December 7, 1941; and spring/summer of 1942, 1943, 1944). The first of those scenarios can be played to 'completion' or stopped at the end of 1941.

There are side issues too about naval units and politics (lend lease, for example). Other design aspects that would have to be decided are IGOUGO versus WEGO. [My personal bias here is that RTS games are not war games, any more that rap music is music. There! two biases acknowledged in one sentence.] And how about historical verisimilitude? Are we talking about Risk? Axis and Allies? Oh, I forgot weather and logistical tails. I'll bet I forgot a lot of other stuff too (generals/leaders).

Am I correct that any new game needs to support Solitaire, Head-to-Head on a single computer, Multiplayer Internet, and PBEM?

Is there a common vision in the war gaming community for the next WiR game, or are the visions (for what the game should look like) as numerous as the people in the community?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 68

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 9:23:06 PM

Veldor

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From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

You guys got it all wrong. Hackers are the ones who make anit-virus programs like Norten and PC doctor and Symatec! ;) It's always been my belief that many of these are in cahoots with the other so these companies can sell milllions of copies of their anit-virus programs. ;) I'll believe that to my dying day.

I wish that were true. It would honestly be a better reason for it.

quote:

In this capitalist society we live in I wouldn't put anything past anyone anymore to make a BUCK! Me on the other hand all I am interested in is SAVING A BUCK! I guess this is the constant war between consumer and distributer. One thing is for certain, you can't put all the pirates in the world in jail so how yah gonna stop them? Anything that can be coded can be decoded. But, you know what? I blame the mfg of cd burning roms and copy programs moreso in this case. See they are out to make a BUCK also. When you buy a book at a store, do you get a copy machine? lol But, now with fast easy internet downloads of just about anything and everything, piracy and hacking is really taking off. Shoulda stayed with "DIALUP" it was slowwwwwww still is slowwwwwww, but, made pirating less attractive.

You are right about broadband connections and the increase in piracy. It has been said that piracy was the sole contributor to the rapid advant of broadband connectivity (including the likes of napster, grokster, and other peer to peer file pirating services). Personally I think it was just people abusing free adult site access

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 69

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 9:44:34 PM

Veldor

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quote:

What are the scales of a new War in Russia game that people would want to buy and play? By scale I mean the size of the units (land and air), the time interval for each turn, the land area per hex (we are using hexagons, aren't we?), the different types of terrain included on the map, and the duration of the game. For example, what I am working on currently (MWIF) has different scenarios for starting at different times during the war (June 22, 1941; December 7, 1941; and spring/summer of 1942, 1943, 1944). The first of those scenarios can be played to 'completion' or stopped at the end of 1941.

Approx 3-4 times that of SC2 for scale.

quote:

There are side issues too about naval units and politics (lend lease, for example). Other design aspects that would have to be decided are IGOUGO versus WEGO. [My personal bias here is that RTS games are not war games, any more that rap music is music. There! two biases acknowledged in one sentence.] And how about historical verisimilitude? Are we talking about Risk? Axis and Allies? Oh, I forgot weather and logistical tails. I'll bet I forgot a lot of other stuff too (generals/leaders).

WEGO.

quote:

Am I correct that any new game needs to support Solitaire, Head-to-Head on a single computer, Multiplayer Internet, and PBEM?

Not really. Alot leave out Head-to-Head. And a good number leave out either Internet or PBEM. You simply need Solitaire and ONE other method. Often a game design is not condusive to both Internet and PBEM play styles. Or your making design sacrifices in order to accomodate both. Personally there is a small sweet spot for games that can do both correctly but most should be either one or the other. WiTP should always be PBEM, Axis&Allies should be internet only. I have a limit on how many PBEM style games I will buy and or play at one time. Advances in internet technology for games has really helped in that area (one small example the latest Diplomacy patch now lets you save your game directly to their metaserver instead of only locally). I don't like playing games for months or years on end, especially when often youll loose your opponent anyway (that translates to wasted months to me). I prefer a game thats more moderate in difficulty that makes internet play more possible. I also strongely believe games like WiTP have needless additional levels of detail in many areas that do not substantionally contribute to the outcome of the action or game for that matter. Controlling which pilot pilots what plane in a pacific grand strategy game is a poor design choice IMO. You might as well also add elements for how they were feeling that day, what they ate for breakfast, when they last had the company of a woman, etc. I will run from any WiR game that even comes close to including that level of detail.

quote:

Is there a common vision in the war gaming community for the next WiR game, or are the visions (for what the game should look like) as numerous as the people in the community?

Common vision? Maybe among the hardest core grogs, but the rest of us never seem to agree. Grogs are the most vocal group and the squeky wheel gets the oil so no doubt WiR will be a total grog love child. It seems wargames these days have to target one extreme or the other. Perhaps the community is too small and the two diverse groups too opinionated to support a title that falls somewhere in the middle between WiTP and GGWaW.

But that would be what "I" would like the WiR game to be....

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 70

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/10/2005 10:07:01 PM

ravinhood

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quote:

Am I correct that any new game needs to support Solitaire, Head-to-Head on a single computer, Multiplayer Internet, and PBEM?

Most definitely Solitaire and PBEM. The only two forms of computer gaming I will use. If I have someone Head to Head (I prefer face to face) we'll usually play a tabletop game, don't really care for all that chair swapping or them sitting right next to me. ;)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 71

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/11/2005 4:21:27 AM

Veldor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Most definitely Solitaire and PBEM. The only two forms of computer gaming I will use. If I have someone Head to Head (I prefer face to face) we'll usually play a tabletop game, don't really care for all that chair swapping or them sitting right next to me. ;)

Head-to-Heads better use isn't for two actual players, its to have a poor man's AI. You can play yourself then. Perhaps to test out strategies, or perhaps because its actually more fun and challenging than playing the AI.

I completely respect those that like that option, but I'm guessing it represents a small minority.

Most board wargamers know the technique far too well. I played many a wargame this way years ago more often than I did FTF.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 72

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/11/2005 5:04:15 AM

Fred98

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My view is that Head to Head is absolutly nescessary - I will play myself simply to check the game mechanics. It allows me to set up a specific situation and then see how it pans out - under those particulair game mechanics.

It is not possible to set up a specific situation against the AI.

And I agree with Veldor - in WITP, for a grand strategy game there is TOO MUCH detail that requires player input

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Post #: 73

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/11/2005 5:10:20 AM

Stavka_lite

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I think the scale is 10 miles = 1 hex and 1 turn = 1 week which means 200+ turns for the full campaign game. Thats going to be one big darn map, but not as big as WitP. Back in the late 90s I played Decision Games' Computer War in Europe and enjoyed it immensly even though there were some disturbing "design features" and no AI. I hope that there will be a rudimentary AI included if for no other reason than to practice against. This will be one game that demands PBEM. That being said I don't think it would be too unreasonable to finish a game in less than a year, or maybe even six months. Of course it will require dedication to get the turns turned around in a timely manner. Summer turns will take a while but winter turns should be faster and mud turns even quicker.

I already feel sorry for the minor axis countries.

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(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 74

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/11/2005 10:43:00 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stavka_lite
I think the scale is 10 miles = 1 hex and 1 turn = 1 week which means 200+ turns for the full campaign game. Thats going to be one big darn map, but not as big as WitP. Back in the late 90s I played Decision Games' Computer War in Europe and enjoyed it immensly even though there were some disturbing "design features" and no AI. I hope that there will be a rudimentary AI included if for no other reason than to practice against. This will be one game that demands PBEM. That being said I don't think it would be too unreasonable to finish a game in less than a year, or maybe even six months. Of course it will require dedication to get the turns turned around in a timely manner. Summer turns will take a while but winter turns should be faster and mud turns even quicker.

I already feel sorry for the minor axis countries.

So how big is the map? Small would go from the Polish/Rumanian front line at the start of Barbarossa to Moscow. Large would go from Berlin to the Urals. Bigger than that? How far north? Is Finland in or out (abstract, off-map stuff)? Are we looking south all the way to the Turkey - Persia border?

And I am real interested in unit size, given this scale.

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Post #: 75

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/11/2005 3:10:28 PM

Captain Cruft

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You can download the original WiR to get a feel for the size. It's a c.1mb file.

Hex size: 20 miles
Map size: 71x65 hexes
Turn length: 1 week
Unit size: Corps (Army for Soviets), "Group" for air, naval completely abstracted.

Whether the new game will be the same I have no idea, though I do seem to remember that divisional units were mentioned.

Here is a compressed version of the WiR map.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Captain Cruft -- 12/11/2005 3:13:09 PM >

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Post #: 76

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/11/2005 6:51:12 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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From: italy
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I'd need something like a regimental unit size, so that we'll be able to use german doctrine of kempfgruppen...
The more detailed it is, the better imho.
I need a monster game!
1 turn/week???

I'd like 2 turns/day...

I need a monster game...haven't i already mentioned this?

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Post #: 77

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/11/2005 7:49:49 PM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Lol I can't believe we have cheaters in this niche wargaming class. Surely by now you guys are old enough to accept defeat without resorting to cheating?

Believe it or not,

With the new group of casual wargamers picking up CMBB and AK since the retail release we have seen the release of a way to get your opponents password. Now I am not sure what or how many of the games out there this program will hack, but I am hearing any title you use the PBEM option

.

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Post #: 78

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/11/2005 9:33:11 PM

Captain Cruft

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Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
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Here is a quote from Joel Billings in response to a question posed by a forum user via email. I got it from the WiR forum here at Matrix, which is worth checking it from time to time.

quote:

Subject: Re: Questions about USSR1941-1945

We don't expect the game to be published until 2007 at the earliest. We have
been waiting for months for a development map and we are now a few days or
week away from finally getting it. Once we have it Mike Wood can dive back
into the project (assuming we can pull him away from War in the Pacific
patches). I wish I had more info to tell you, but that's the situation.
Hopefully 2006 will see this game will finally be in full development.

Joel Billings

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Post #: 79

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/12/2005 12:30:01 AM

ravinhood

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Ahhhh good at least a couple of years away. Onward towards GGACW and Combat Leader and EIA's. ;)

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Post #: 80

RE: New WiR Game? - 12/12/2005 8:08:58 PM

Stavka_lite

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Joined: 3/15/2004
From: Tucson
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Speaking of monster games I went to the Decision Games website (www.decisiongames.com) to see if there was anything new. I found the same old stuff that they have been pushing for years AND they have introduced a new wrinkle. They are asking people to pledge to buy a game after they have re-developed it. With that being said I looked at what, if anything, was new and they are re-doing Computer War in Europe. They have redone the graphics and the interface. It appears that they are redoing some mechanics as well, but stil no AI. I downloaded the demo and it looks better, plays the same but the playing interface is much better and like WitP you need a magnifying glass to play it. it is expensive, but what isn't these days. It is supposd to be released in 2006 but I don't see it as a replacement for matrix's newest version of WiR.

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Post #: 81