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Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 1:07:50 AM

pak19652002

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All the talk about options has made me wonder about LOC Vichy. Will it be included in the game? I looked around but couldn't find a reference to it on the forum.

If it is still an open issue, I would certainly like to urge its adoption and begin a dialogue about its relative value to the game.

Peter

Post #: 1

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 1:21:09 AM

lomyrin

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From: San Diego
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Has Matrix considered including LOC Vichy?

As an option it is certainly a very good one, although it is likely to require quite a bit of programming code.

Lars

(in reply to pak19652002)

Post #: 2

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 2:23:55 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pak19652002

All the talk about options has made me wonder about LOC Vichy. Will it be included in the game? I looked around but couldn't find a reference to it on the forum.

If it is still an open issue, I would certainly like to urge its adoption and begin a dialogue about its relative value to the game.

Peter

And LOC Vichy is?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to pak19652002)

Post #: 3

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 3:13:32 AM

lomyrin

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LOC Vichy rules were published in one of the WiF LOC magazines and was updated at least once.

The latest version, it is a long document of some 15 pages, is available on line at the WiFCon site:

members.aol.com/wifcon/home/vichy.html

It is very good.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 4

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 5:27:23 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

LOC Vichy rules were published in one of the WiF LOC magazines and was updated at least once.

The latest version, it is a long document of some 15 pages, is available on line at the WiFCon site:

members.aol.com/wifcon/home/vichy.html

It is very good.

Lars

15 pages!?

Players are just going to have to manage to try all the combinations and permutations of the current list of 80 optional rules. When they have explored all of them thoroughly, then I might listen to suggestions about more optional rules. 15 pages!?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 5

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 5:39:18 AM

lomyrin

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Yes, I did not really think you were contemplating adding this option. It is, however, a very nice additional option in the boardgame, and is almost a game in itself. It changes how France is played and tends to cause a summer of 40 fall of France.

As far as I am aware, the LoC Vichy option is in very widespread use among the WiFFE players.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 6

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 6:57:59 PM

buckyzoom

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If I recall correctly LOC Vichy was originally published in the WIF Annual as an optional rule. It never made it into RAW though. Does anyone know the origins of WIFCON gas?

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 7

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 7:58:27 PM

Cheesehead

Posts: 418
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From: Appleton, Wisconsin
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quote:

15 pages!?

That was my reaction when I first saw the rule. I haven't been playing long enough to start begging for more rules and variations to an already perfect game. Let's let Steve finish the RAW game first, see it published, and then maybe Steve or other qualified people can start tinkering with Mods.

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RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 8:45:57 PM

c92nichj

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The problem the LOCVichy addresses that France have a fair chance of surviving until summer '41 can be solved with other options, Suprised Zoc's, 2D10 table.

(in reply to Cheesehead)

Post #: 9

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 8:46:23 PM

pak19652002

Posts: 280
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Yes, I did not really think you were contemplating adding this option. It is, however, a very nice additional option in the boardgame, and is almost a game in itself. It changes how France is played and tends to cause a summer of 40 fall of France.

As far as I am aware, the LoC Vichy option is in very widespread use among the WiFFE players.

Lars

I apologize. I thought more people were aware of the LOC Vichy rule and therefore I did not grease the skids with any kind of explanation. Before you all get too worked up, take some time to learn about the rules, how they work, and why they were created. Maybe it's too complex to include in the game, but maybe not. Let's not pull out the long knives just yet!

LOC Vichy did not come from Mars, rather from a tremendous amount of work and playtesting by true WiF experts. Below is a summary I wrote to introduce my tutorial team to the option.

___________

LOC Vichy is the nickname given to an alternative set of Vichy rules proffered in ADGs periodical, Lines of Communication (and, perhaps a WiF Annual).

LOC Vichy's premise is that the formation, nature and structure of historical Vichy France was by no means inevitable and that the RAW Vichy rules are too inflexible in that they can only result in one basic outcome.

A group of experienced players completely rewrote the Vichy rules to allow for a great variety of outcomes depending on battle results, player objectives and chance.

Until Vichy is declared, opposing MPs earn chits for winning battles, taking (and holding) cities, and other factors. These chits can be spent to declare Vichy France, vary its geography, determine control and loyalty of French units, influence or purchase French territories around the world, force certain concessions from Vichy, and achieve a number of other outcomes favorable to one side or the other.

Most fundamentally, the nature of Vichy France is determined by the relative success of the opposing sides in the French campaign.

The result is a far more dynamic and nuanced process of Vichy formation that can differ significantly from the historical model.

Some feel the benefits are outweighed by the added complexity, but it seems like more and more players are using it.

http://members.aol.com/wifcon/home/vichy.html
______________

Peter

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 10

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 9:29:33 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pak19652002

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Yes, I did not really think you were contemplating adding this option. It is, however, a very nice additional option in the boardgame, and is almost a game in itself. It changes how France is played and tends to cause a summer of 40 fall of France.

As far as I am aware, the LoC Vichy option is in very widespread use among the WiFFE players.

Lars

I apologize. I thought more people were aware of the LOC Vichy rule and therefore I did not grease the skids with any kind of explanation. Before you all get too worked up, take some time to learn about the rules, how they work, and why they were created. Maybe it's too complex to include in the game, but maybe not. Let's not pull out the long knives just yet!

LOC Vichy did not come from Mars, rather from a tremendous amount of work and playtesting by true WiF experts. Below is a summary I wrote to introduce my tutorial team to the option.

___________

LOC Vichy is the nickname given to an alternative set of Vichy rules proffered in ADGs periodical, Lines of Communication (and, perhaps a WiF Annual).

LOC Vichy's premise is that the formation, nature and structure of historical Vichy France was by no means inevitable and that the RAW Vichy rules are too inflexible in that they can only result in one basic outcome.

A group of experienced players completely rewrote the Vichy rules to allow for a great variety of outcomes depending on battle results, player objectives and chance.

Until Vichy is declared, opposing MPs earn chits for winning battles, taking (and holding) cities, and other factors. These chits can be spent to declare Vichy France, vary its geography, determine control and loyalty of French units, influence or purchase French territories around the world, force certain concessions from Vichy, and achieve a number of other outcomes favorable to one side or the other.

Most fundamentally, the nature of Vichy France is determined by the relative success of the opposing sides in the French campaign.

The result is a far more dynamic and nuanced process of Vichy formation that can differ significantly from the historical model.

Some feel the benefits are outweighed by the added complexity, but it seems like more and more players are using it.

http://members.aol.com/wifcon/home/vichy.html
______________

Peter

Thanks for the additional information.

My task is to implement WIF FE (as defined by RAW 7m). I am very strongly opposed to adding to that task or redefining it.

One of Chris' problems with completing CWIF, and I believe one of the problems faced by almost all game developers, is a moving target as to what is being created. There are several other war games in development at Matrix Games and I have read posts about how they are being 'improved' as they are being created. Now I am not opposed to improvements, but I am opposed to redesigns. Clearly the VOC Vichy rules are a complete redesign of the Vichy rules for WIF. The number of new items mentioned in your short introduction is more than 1.

I have said this before, and I'll repeat it again now. There are hundreds if not thousands of house rules for WIF and I am certain that many of them are excellent. It is not my job to include them and trying to do so will delay the release of MWIF. They are not translated into code instantanteously. Every new subsystem (e.g., Vichy France chits) has to be examined in light of every other subsystem in the game (US Entry, delaring war on minors, aligning minors, ...). I would bet large amounts of money that there are interactions of the new VOC Vichy rules with some of the other rules (e.g., the 80 optional rules) that have not been analyzed thoroughly. And by thoroughly, I mean that every possible combination has been considered and the interactions rigidly defined - so rigidly defined that code can be written to implement them.

My mantra remains: design, code, test. Do NOT redesign.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to pak19652002)

Post #: 11

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/13/2006 10:19:03 PM

pak19652002

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Fair enough. I just asked the question! Didn't mean to get you all steamed up.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 12

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/14/2006 2:23:16 AM

YohanTM2

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I'm not sure why you think Steve is steamed? I thought he took the time to explain his viewpoint thoroughly and it makes sense.

Having playtested a number of games I have seen scope creep throw schedules way out. Lets let Steve get this awesome game to market and then talk about add-ons.

Speaking of that, can I mention our house rule for smoothing US entry...

Rob

(in reply to pak19652002)

Post #: 13

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/14/2006 2:51:51 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pak19652002

Fair enough. I just asked the question! Didn't mean to get you all steamed up.

I was in a hurry when I wrote my reply. I spent this afternoon delivering singing valentines (4) and will do the same tomorrow.

If it hasn't become obvious already, my normal writing style is direct and to the point without a lot of delicateness. It sometimes comes across as being abrupt, but that is not my intention. It's just a pure task-oriented personality.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to pak19652002)

Post #: 14

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/14/2006 5:59:05 PM

SurrenderMonkey

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quote:

If it hasn't become obvious already, my normal writing style is direct and to the point without a lot of delicateness. It sometimes comes across as being abrupt, but that is not my intention. It's just a pure task-oriented personality.

Ah, yes ... a fellow INTJ.

Let's cut the crud and get to the point!

One more reason I am glad you;re our warm and cuddly developer ... *squishy*

_____________________________

Wise Men Still Seek Him

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 15

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/15/2006 3:10:12 AM

JimMerson

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Someday, if I post enough, I will move beyond the "Matrix Recruit" level!!!!

Somewhere awhile back I posted to this forum the problem software developers have. That problem being that when you contract to develope a piece of software you sit down with the people whom you are developing it for and write out a "standard" or what the software is expected to do. Both sides of the development team must be very clear on what they expect and it is generally written in a contract what the software will do when finished. I am sure that has happened here, but people are trying to change that "standard".

As I understand it, RAW V. 7.0 or something like that is the standard. Here we have LOC Vicy rules being debated, elsewhere people are trying to change the rules for China.

Lets keep it simple here and stick with what was asked for. Most of these things can be done as "house rules" once the software is released.

I am smiling as I write this, please take it as such and not me trying to get down on anyone.

Thanks.

Jim

(in reply to SurrenderMonkey)

Post #: 16

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/15/2006 3:30:18 PM

Caranorn

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Actually changeing the rules for China and/or Japan has been considered a possibility since MWiF started. The reason is that with the map scale change from WiFFE to CWiF/MWiF the entire war in China plays differently. Possible rule changes to channel these changes will have to be established during beta testing. Personally I'd have opted for changes to the land orders of battle (of any country seriously involved in combat on the Asian, Pacific or Africa maps). But that might just be too tempting to change all the orders of battle and that way deviate from the original plan to stay as close to the board game as possible...

P.S.: I was going to write that those Vichy rules were indeed in an annual, but when I look through those I have (only 2) I can't find it, and I'm certain it came out during the single year I was subscribed (98/99 iirc) to LoC. So it was probably in LoC after all (but with colour images in the digital version as I am 100% certain it came with colour maps of France...). I never played with the rules myself as I didn't particularly like them...

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RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/15/2006 6:40:08 PM

pak19652002

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JimMerson

Lets keep it simple here and stick with what was asked for. Most of these things can be done as "house rules" once the software is released.

Would LOC Vichy be the kind of thing that could be modified by players/programmers after the fact?

(in reply to JimMerson)

Post #: 18

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/15/2006 7:07:55 PM

lomyrin

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From: San Diego
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I think the LoC Vichy rules are much to complicated to be added later.

The involvement of US Entry chits, variable Vichy Geography, negotiations between the sides, purchases of units, territory demands, political consessions, and Vichy loyalty variations, would result in many modifications in a lot of areas of the game program.

While I personally like this Vichy rule I also agree with Steve that it is out of scope for MWiF.

To houserule it and manually use it on the side while playing also seems unlikely to succeed.

Lars

(in reply to pak19652002)

Post #: 19

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/15/2006 7:23:21 PM

pak19652002

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I think the LoC Vichy rules are much to complicated to be added later.

The involvement of US Entry chits, variable Vichy Geography, negotiations between the sides, purchases of units, territory demands, political consessions, and Vichy loyalty variations, would result in many modifications in a lot of areas of the game program.

While I personally like this Vichy rule I also agree with Steve that it is out of scope for MWiF.

To houserule it and manually use it on the side while playing also seems unlikely to succeed.

Lars

That's what I thought. Too bad.

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 20

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/15/2006 8:15:54 PM

Cheesehead

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quote:

That's what I thought. Too bad.

Well, maybe there should still be a reason for some of us to continue playing the cardboard WiF. As much as I look forward to the computer version, I don't plan on dispensing with my board game...or my small, local game group.

_____________________________

You can't fight in here...this is the war room!

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RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/16/2006 6:43:59 PM

Anendrue

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Both versions have their place. Perhaps in the future, Matrix and ADG will release add ons upgrades etc... to MWiF just as we have seen for WiF. This could be a good revenue stream for them and a good deal for us also.

This also keeps mission creep from creating gargantuan out of control programmer eating monsters

and I love a win-win situation.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

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Post #: 22

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 2/17/2006 4:08:57 AM

JimMerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

Both versions have their place. Perhaps in the future, Matrix and ADG will release add ons upgrades etc... to MWiF just as we have seen for WiF. This could be a good revenue stream for them and a good deal for us also.

This also keeps mission creep from creating gargantuan out of control programmer eating monsters and I love a win-win situation.

I like the line about program eater. That is good. Yes, both versions will have their place and to dispense with an already established group would be a terrible thing to do because that is part of what gaming is about, getting together with people to enjoy yourselves.

Jim

(in reply to Anendrue)

Post #: 23

RE: Vive LOC Vichy? - 3/16/2006 7:03:27 PM

composer99

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From: Ottawa, Canada
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quote:

I think the LoC Vichy rules are much to complicated to be added later.

Given the complexity of WiF:FE in general, I'm not sure that LoC Vichy is too complicated for later addition. However, unless and until it becomes incorporated into RAW as an optional rule I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to come out in an official Matrix Games patch or upgrade (or sequel) to MWiF, and certainly not until Steve has had a well-earned (and hopefully long) break.

quote:

The involvement of US Entry chits, variable Vichy Geography, negotiations between the sides, purchases of units, territory demands, political consessions, and Vichy loyalty variations, would result in many modifications in a lot of areas of the game program.

The way entry chits are handled in MWiF makes that less of a problem than in cardboard WiF. The variable Vichy borders could be handled by CSVs. The negotiations are tough, I agree completely there. Their easiest configuration would be hotseat or live LAN/Internet multiplayer, and that would be hard enough. Harder still is PBEM.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 24