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RE: Ok guys need some opinions

 
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RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 3:26:47 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		I believe most of WWII's 75's were based on the very successful French 75. That piece showed its' effectiveness.
One might guage how all those armies might want to copy such a marvel, and then wonder at how the 75 is treated in Steel Panthers.
Like a prior poster noted, units have retreated *into* the beaten zone, and instead of thinking this is a "game flaw", maybe we should see this as an example that the infantry in this game might know something some of us refuse to accept ?

< Message edited by m10bob -- 2/22/2006 3:27:01 AM >

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Post #: 31
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 3:45:37 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I believe most of WWII's 75's were based on the very successful French 75. That piece showed its' effectiveness.
One might guage how all those armies might want to copy such a marvel, and then wonder at how the 75 is treated in Steel Panthers.
Like a prior poster noted, units have retreated *into* the beaten zone, and instead of thinking this is a "game flaw", maybe we should see this as an example that the infantry in this game might know something some of us refuse to accept ?


THIS is where the new national leader/exp ratings come into effect. Some nations' infantry are more likely to withstand bombardment, while others may have a propensity to break. Breaking the enemy's will to fight is better than having to kill him, isn't it?

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Post #: 32
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 3:48:20 AM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Then you have either POWs to bother with, or men who'll come back to fight again, next time with greater resolve. Better to lay 'em low, and toss 'em in a hole.

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Post #: 33
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 4:05:01 AM   
KG Erwin


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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: azraelck

Then you have either POWs to bother with, or men who'll come back to fight again, next time with greater resolve. Better to lay 'em low, and toss 'em in a hole.


In game terms, they earn victory points for you, regardless of their fate.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 2/22/2006 4:07:17 AM >

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Post #: 34
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 5:29:39 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		OK, bumping this back to the top.

On nation ratings, check out the WW2 Stat txt file in the SPWaW/Chlanda folder. These were ratings established for a very early incarnation of the game, and I think most of them are pretty good.

However, if the median level is 50 for all values, the low end of the spectrum for the minors' experience levels would fall in the 40-50 range. The high end is "the big boys", like the Germans, Japanese and the 1944-45 USMC. Some of these are too high, IMHO, so what happened in 8.3 was a narrowing of the gap, at least in the case of the Marines.

Mike expanded the gap in 8.4, and no one seems to like it.

So, what do you guys want? A level playing field for everyone? Who's to say what the "correct" values are? There is no such thing.

One of Mike's long-term goals is to make these values part of the user-edit routine. That seems to be the only solution, as everyone has different ideas on what they should be.

In the meantime, we have what we have.


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Post #: 35
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 5:35:31 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Moving along now -- the issue of snipers having radios.

We DID succeed in removing the snipers' ability to close assault, which helped.

Now, can the ability for snipers to call in arty and air strikes be removed?

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Post #: 36
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 6:51:59 PM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Is there a way to always have a sniper out of contact? At least flag it as always being out of radio contact, even if they automatically gain a radio.

A user-edit feature for the various values would probably cause some problems in PBEM and online games, but for SP it would be great. Then all you'd have to say when somebody complains of some such value being too low/high is "then edit it". At least an option to have a static level playing field; which would help online/PBEM somewhat. One button to ensure than all similarly classed units from all nations have equal values would make for reasonably fair multiplayer.

To be honest, I haven't really felt anything is wrong with the current values, but then I never played any version prior to what I have. I also have limited experience with anything outside of the major 6 nations. I've fought against french, polish, and romanian forces, but only in minor battles. Not in multiple campaigns like the others. So I wouldn't take anything I say with regards to those values too much.

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Post #: 37
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 8:20:56 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		How is 50 average when the scale is from 0-140 ?


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Post #: 38
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 9:18:22 PM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2
How is 50 average when the scale is from 0-140 ?


The values that are actually used by any country in the game range from 25-75, although the possible range is 0-140. Anyway, 50 is in the middle of that 25-75 range.

-Colonel von Blitz-

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Post #: 39
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 9:48:49 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		We have some values at 20 currently, when the manual discussed what numbers represent what I think it stated 60 was a average joe troop, changes at the low end have much more of a drastic effect than on the high. I like the programmers conventions as far as the effect on FC, but if you have values on tanks of 30 they get one shot period, maybe zero if they where near a arty hit. Or hit by a MG.

50 is green raw troop, not average I guess thats my point I'm trying to make, poorly make that is LOL

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Post #: 40
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 10:16:25 PM   
Afrika Korps


Posts: 204
Joined: 7/2/2002
From: Rhode Island
Status: offline 		Although I am still learning how these number actually effect gameplay when changed, one thing I have problems with is that in some instances, say long campaign and some scenarios (not all), Japanese morale seems too low. IJA troops suffered 99% casualties, not by routing and running away, but by giving no quarter or ground, even when completely surrounded (fighting until that Flamethrower literally burned them alive). In SPWAW, most of the casualties I get is when the unit routs and runs away--then it gets cut down without firing a shot. Dug in on those islands, they usually didn't run. Take Saipan....4000+ soldiers Banzai charged into HMG fire and made it to the front lines and had a mixed melee with the USMC...they all got creamed, but they did make it in. I don't see how I could do that in SPWAW...

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Post #: 41
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 10:37:17 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		I see and like alot of the points being mad in these posts, but am haveing a hard time figuring out why the #'s for morale and experience are such a hard pill to swallow for some of the members who are obviously more able to change them to their like. I get on grief or glory in what any of those #'s mean when I'm fighting a battle Its up to me to watch all their progress and put squads or platoons further back in the line if their performence is'nt giving them improvement its up to my positioning of them to protect them threw enough battles for them to gain these #'s . RT

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Post #: 42
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/22/2006 10:54:37 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		How many battles to get a Rumanian unit just up to Green level? 15-20? Maybe more if they don't gain every time. Up to Experienced (which they probably would be after 15-20 or more battles!)? 40? Veteran? 70? Elite? Maybe a 100? I submit this is in no way realistic. That 'elite' class units in these nations are far worse than even the worst Major nation's troops is also not realistic.

The problem with changing the numbers (currently anyways) to whatever you like is that all 3 stats change to the same number as base. Set it at 60, they are all 60. So if I wish to simulate a battle hardened Rumanian unit that actually stood and fought in the war, I would want their morale at 70+, with their experience at maybe 60-65, and their leadership at 50 or so. Green Japanese troops might get a 90 morale, 50 experience, and 60 leadership. I would have to set all the Rumanian stats at what the morale should be, to get it up there, and same with the Japanese stats. Mike is going to fix this, but that's where the hubbub is coming from.

I just sent an email where I stated that deer and rabbits would stay in a fight longer than the nations in this game (and they are not armed).


Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 2/22/2006 10:58:10 PM >

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Post #: 43
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/23/2006 12:00:12 AM   
Afrika Korps


Posts: 204
Joined: 7/2/2002
From: Rhode Island
Status: offline 		The main reason I don't change the stats myself is for several reasons:

1. I don't understand enough about the stats to make realistic changes

2. I don't want to get used to fighting the AI with one set of stats, then do a PBEM game and get handed my butt because I rely on those stats to play tactically "my way", which is not the "official version" or what the playerbase agrees is acceptable.

3. I don't want too "gamey" a feel. I want as realistic as possible within the SPWAW game construct.

4. I am waiting for the wiser players and Mike to work it out.

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Post #: 44
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/23/2006 3:05:28 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

How many battles to get a Rumanian unit just up to Green level? 15-20? Maybe more if they don't gain every time. Up to Experienced (which they probably would be after 15-20 or more battles!)? 40? Veteran? 70? Elite? Maybe a 100? I submit this is in no way realistic. That 'elite' class units in these nations are far worse than even the worst Major nation's troops is also not realistic.

The problem with changing the numbers (currently anyways) to whatever you like is that all 3 stats change to the same number as base. Set it at 60, they are all 60. So if I wish to simulate a battle hardened Rumanian unit that actually stood and fought in the war, I would want their morale at 70+, with their experience at maybe 60-65, and their leadership at 50 or so. Green Japanese troops might get a 90 morale, 50 experience, and 60 leadership. I would have to set all the Rumanian stats at what the morale should be, to get it up there, and same with the Japanese stats. Mike is going to fix this, but that's where the hubbub is coming from.

I just sent an email where I stated that deer and rabbits would stay in a fight longer than the nations in this game (and they are not armed).


Goblin


I agree..Not all nations trained equally well, (which would tie in with "experience", but its' pretty much a matter of public knowledge whether a nation actually wanted to participate, which I feel is more a "morale" factor, than one of "experience".
Most of us have felt many of the smaller nations have been short-changed.
With an option to put foreign allies in your unit, it would be nice to get some soldiers, and not girl scouts from West Virginia, (or wherever).



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Post #: 45
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/23/2006 3:18:33 AM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Girl scouts bleed for 5 days and don't die. I seriously doubt that the minor nations' could match that in SPWaW.

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Post #: 46
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/23/2006 7:03:10 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		ok this thread was started to get opinions about the splash damage and in hex arty damage...there are plenty of other threads about the ratings and at least one or 2 other concerning the snipers.

back back back...on topic...


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Post #: 47
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/23/2006 7:34:30 AM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Agreed. now about them Snipers....


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Post #: 48
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/23/2006 3:15:10 PM   
264rifle

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		Is it possible that the Aircraft bombs are under valued (at least the big ones) and some artillery is over valued????

According to Dragoon 45 it is possible for a 1000 lb to cause damage at 1200 meters. While this may very well be true ( I will accept this as a given. I wasn't there and I have never been in a like situation) it would make for a lousy game to implement it. One air strike affecting things in a 48 hex diameter circle Maybe spash damage should be extended to three or four or five hex radius for the big stuff. with a corresponding increase in points for purchase. other suggestions????

Getting back to artillery it would take about 500 75mm shells all going off at the same point with in milleseconds of each other to make a bang this big. While dealing with the game ( and small shells) we might want to think about what was likely vrs what is possible. WWII grenades were dangerous (even lethal) at over 200yds under exactly the right conditions. I don't think we want to try to put that in the game.

Even naval gun fire looks a little weak compared to Aircraft bombs. American Naval common shells (non armour piercing)holding about 5.5-6% explosive by weight and High capacity shells ranging from 12.6% (6in, 105 lb) to 8.08% (16in, 1900lb). Maybe they penetrated earth better to make a larger crater than a shallow depth explosion.

I am assuming HE contents of up to 50% for aircraft bombs.

Just trying to see if we are comparing apples to big apples or apples to tomatoes

By the way, a 1938 Navy table commented that in general bombs could not be expected to reach terminal velocity ( 900-1000 ft per sec), as they would not be dropped from a high enough altitude: around 19,000 feet being required. Also, due to Fragmentation and blast envelopes, it was considered inadvisable to bomb BELOW 3000ft for the high- fragmentation heavy case 1000lb bomb, or below 1500ft for light case bombs. (See Dragoon 45's post).

I kind of would like to see the splash damage fade off with distance. Losing more men in a hex two hexes away from the explosion than you lose in the hex with the explosion does seem a little strange. Not impossible, just strange if it happens too often.

Maybe the 75mm artillery needs a boosted firing rate and more ammo. Many 75mm artillery pieces could fire at double or more of the rate of the 100-105 howitzers.

Given the scale of the game maybe some of this stuff as to be represented in an abstract form

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Post #: 49
RE: Ok guys need some opinions - 2/26/2006 5:00:20 PM   
bud

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 7/16/2000
From: N.J.-USA
Status: offline 		after my numerous posts on the 8.403 artillery effectiveness and multiple ( and i mean MULTIPLE ) attempts at adjusting the % on soft and hard target " hitting/damage" settings , i believe a compremize is needed --- 1 - yes splash damage was out of control in 8.4 -- and mike made an adjustment ( thz mike ) to splash -- but the problem i beleave is the actul " hitting hex" where the damage varies - ( most of the time no effect on units ) - SO -- what can be done to get some splash damage back - and more inportant -- what will it take to get damage to the target hex higher ???? --- this way we can all go back to the same settings for artillery -- and to a higher degree , back to a 3 dimentional game where you basically know that some damage will affect the hex`s that have been hit with artillery before you move into them --- and as i posted in past messages --( there seems to be no difference on the caliper that hits the hex , as much as how many times it hits the same hex ) - -- sure hope am in the right post for this topic Alby -- lol -- your favorite " GUIMEA PIG " ----------------- (a.k.a. ICED ) ------------------

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