RE: The germans

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RE: The germans - 2/28/2006 2:24:32 PM

quiritus

Posts: 92
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline

I think that with the bid the game is balanced in term of victory point.
but in the same time it's unabalanced the axis is too strong.
i played many game with different group of player. i NEVER see, with WIFFE the germany surrender. in a game failed(exp players) to conquer france but a the end of the war was alive.
I think that the problem is the time. the average number of impulses is the same in 1939 with small density of unit that in 1944 when the number of unit in play is huge, because in a single turn it's rare that a coutry lose more BP that produce.
Try to play with monthly turn in 43/44(production every two month as normal) and 3 weeks turn in 45/46 and I think you find the game more balanced in term of historical result.

(in reply to tigercub)

Post #: 31

RE: The germans - 2/28/2006 7:27:07 PM

c92nichj

Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: quiritus

I think that with the bid the game is balanced in term of victory point.
but in the same time it's unabalanced the axis is too strong.
i played many game with different group of player. i NEVER see, with WIFFE the germany surrender. in a game failed(exp players) to conquer france but a the end of the war was alive.
I think that the problem is the time. the average number of impulses is the same in 1939 with small density of unit that in 1944 when the number of unit in play is huge, because in a single turn it's rare that a coutry lose more BP that produce.
Try to play with monthly turn in 43/44(production every two month as normal) and 3 weeks turn in 45/46 and I think you find the game more balanced in term of historical result.

What you are saying is similiar to my viewpoint, the axis is too weak in the beginning but to strong in the end.
In a way the sides are too balanced, not giving the other side a chance to truly utilise all his potential during the time available).
Early in the war the allies will not make alot of the same mistakes as was made in the real war (letting the germans push their panzers through the ardennes without a fight), and later the Axis will not make the same mistake (hold every bit of taken ground in USSR, don't ry to blits the allies back to the sea after D-Day)

(in reply to quiritus)

Post #: 32

RE: The germans - 2/28/2006 7:35:46 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

All Games are balanced IF you do the following:

1) Pick your optional rules.
2) Play the game twice (switching sides) with the same optional rules.
3) Compare victories.

The winner should be obvious.

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 33

RE: The germans - 2/28/2006 7:51:38 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

All Games are balanced IF you do the following:

1) Pick your optional rules.
2) Play the game twice (switching sides) with the same optional rules.
3) Compare victories.

The winner should be obvious.

But it's not chess...

The inclusion of rolling dice for combat results can skew the results. I have played several memorable games where I could not roll a 'good' result ever. I amaze the statisticians by blowing the curve (in my opponents favor).

Also, I have noticed a "human" factor, that is not quantifiable:

If you destroy your opponents morale, they may cede the game even though things are not truly as bad as they perceive them to be. (I suppose you could offer to swap sides, but most players would rather accept the opponents surrender for bragging rights while, at the same time, drinking all their beer supply...)

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 34

RE: The germans - 3/1/2006 1:15:21 PM

quiritus

Posts: 92
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline

are balanced in term of victory condition but the problem of conquer germany remain.
the last time we have used a reverse side sistem, the first game is that in wich the german never vichy france, in the return i'm as german put russia out of european map, conquer UK, the game stop with panzer fighting in sud africa.
and due to a exceptional performance of jap in the first game and equally worst in the second, my team win for 1 point

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 35

RE: The germans - 3/1/2006 1:35:46 PM

quiritus

Posts: 92
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline

i don't think the axis is too weak in the beginning. for me the first 3 years are funny and well balanced. in the 39 the germany start a war it isn't prepared to fight so that france it's not automatic defeated(the german have all to vichy, but must think well about production and accept the loss occuring) and in a game without any kind of fog of war the historical mistake are difficult to obtain.
is after 42 that is too strong for me

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 36

RE: The germans - 3/2/2006 6:24:23 AM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

I think the issue here is how much do we direct the game along historical lines and how much do we leave it open? If someone competent had been in charge of the French army, France would have lasted much longer and exacted much heavier losses on the Wehrmacht. If the Japanese had only attacked the Commonwealth, America�s entry would most probably have been at least significantly delayed. There are numerous other examples of this sort of thing. The way the war went wasn�t pre-ordained.

In general I favour leaving the game open. It will be more interesting than constantly re-fighting a variant of WW2. The use of optional rules can direct the game along more historical lines if one wishes.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to quiritus)

Post #: 37

RE: The germans - 3/2/2006 10:55:58 AM

c92nichj

Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline

To summarise my opinion about game balance I think that the french are too hard for Germany to beat and USSR are too easy to push off the european map.
But as have been said before the options you choose to play with will impact that quite a lot.
Just as in quiritus example games, once germany failed to vichy france and once a blowout in Russia occured. Thoose results are a little bit too common for my liking, what option set would be good to to prevent that of happening?

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 38

RE: The germans - 3/2/2006 11:22:10 AM

Hortlund

Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline

I think that before we can discuss game balance for any nation, we need to see how the unilimted breakdown of corps affects land combat. My gut tells me that the breakdown rule will change alot of the dynamics in land combat, and therefore also how Germany is able to handle France and the USSR.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 39

RE: The germans - 3/2/2006 4:29:42 PM

pak19652002

Posts: 280
Joined: 1/2/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

To summarise my opinion about game balance I think that the french are too hard for Germany to beat and USSR are too easy to push off the european map.
But as have been said before the options you choose to play with will impact that quite a lot.
Just as in quiritus example games, once germany failed to vichy france and once a blowout in Russia occured. Thoose results are a little bit too common for my liking, what option set would be good to to prevent that of happening?

Well, you could speed up the defeat of France by allowing for surprised ZOCs in low countries. This helps Grmany blow right through Belgium. Conversely, disallowing surprised ZOCs might encourage Russia to defend farther forward and thereby give up less territory in the critical first few impulses. Of course, you would have to house rule this East/West discrepancy.

Also, railway movement bonus helps the Germans eat up territory in bad weather. Eliminating that would help the Russians. You could also use HQ movement option to slow down the German advance. Neither one of these would affect France, obviously.

It's also been said that using artillery helps France defend. I've always used it so I don't know whether this makes a difference. Few would give up artillery I think.

Not allowing defensive shore bombardment would help Germany marginally in France, but would impact other areas of the game significantly.

That's all I could come up with after glancing at the options chart.

Peter

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 40