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How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ?

 
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How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 10:50:15 AM   
wild_Willie2


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Status: offline 		Just Curieus, how would german mainstream AC like the ju88, he111, me109, fw190, ju87 rate in WITP values ??

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 12:09:38 PM   
wild_Willie2


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Status: offline 		Is the ju88 comparible to the B-25 or more to the ki21 ?

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 12:35:59 PM   
Marten


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Status: offline 		ju88 is more like russian pe2

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 12:37:48 PM   
Honda


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Status: offline 		Well, it all depends on a version. Ju88 was one of the most versatile planes of WW2. Can you imagine it as a dive bomber? It would be great in that role in WitP. Orw He11 as a torpedo bomber (carried 2 I belive). As for the fighters, I really don't want to go into any speculation, it would just end up in a protracted argument intervowen with fanboyist personal insults...

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 12:41:20 PM   
wild_Willie2


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quote:

ju88 is more like russian pe2


How many times would the JU-88 actually have been used in the dive bomber role?, I know that it had dive breaks, but could such an massive ac really have dived at 80+ degrees like his smaller counterparts ??

What would have been the range of a combat loaded He111 and Ju88 ?? 6- 8 hexes ??

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 1:49:33 PM   
Przemcio231


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Status: offline 		Well Willie less typing more WITP turn making as for the range max range of He-111 was 1960 km... for H-16 version an and Ju-88A range was 2730 km... just swith them into miles and you have it:) BTW Ju-88 was used as Dive bomber , Level Bomber and Night Fighter... this plane was nible as for its size...

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 1:58:34 PM   
captskillet


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Status: offline 		FW 190 could hold its own vs any Allied fighter and was better than anything the Japanese had (IMHO), the Bf-109 would have a little trouble vs Mustangs, Thunderbolts & Spitfires but was again better than Japanese fighters.

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 2:28:03 PM   
herwin

 

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 2:45:09 PM   
Tom Hunter


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Status: offline 		Using WitP rules the German aircraft would do very well since the system gives a combat bonus for numeric superiority.

In fact using the WitP combat system would certainly give the Germans a win in the Battle of Britian.

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 2:47:33 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

How many times would the JU-88 actually have been used in the dive bomber role?, I know that it had dive breaks, but could such an massive ac really have dived at 80+ degrees like his smaller counterparts ??


It was used regularly as dive bomber in Finnish Air Force (and of course by Germans) in WW II. Dive angles were 60-80 degrees. In long run it was discovered that extensive diving combat ops strained the structure, so dive breaks in FAF Ju-88s were removed and dive angle was made shallower (45 degrees). It was still dive-bombing, though, Stuvi dive-bombing sight was used. And diving speeds were even increased due to removal of dive breaks.

Just more trivia from other forum:

"But of course, tactics used depended on target. With an area target the 88s used level bombing tactics. For more specific targets, glide bombing. Dive bombing was used inititally, even in 90 degree dives, but that was abandoned to save the planes from the stress, as Finns had very limited capability to repair planes. Glide bombing was found to be very accurate, with best pilots being able to hit the targets within 10 meter accuracy. Glide bombing was also found to be the safest method, since the AA fire had much harder time tracking a bomber coming down on 700-800 km glide, than a bomber fying level or diving with 70-90 degree angles."

Note that Finnish use of term "glide bombing" differs from US use. Glide bombing in FAF ment 45 degree attack using Stuvi dive bombing sight.

"Let me quote you "Lentäjän Näkökulma IV" which is a book about technical and operational aspects of Finnish bombers in WW2:
"After initial operational phase, Finns began to use 45 degree diving angle instead of normal 60 to 80 degrees. As dive brakes were removed, increased diving speed (up to 700km/h) [435mph] made it more difficult for enemy AAA to track the plane. ... To minimize losses, bomb release altitude was often set to 2500 metres [8000ft]. Pull-up would usually take 500 metres. Due to higher release altitude, accuracy was not as good as it had been with smaller dive bombers [Ju-87, Fokker CX presumably]. However in good conditions, experienced crews could hit within ten metres of target."

I've read memoirs of Flt.Mst Rantala, who was Ju-88 pilot during the war, and glide bombing (which is of course nothing but shallow angle dive bombing) was used plenty. I've also read numerous accounts by fighter pilots escorting Ju-88's, who testimony that Ju's dive bombed often."

"To add here. Let's see how PLeLv 44 operated during summer battles 1944 ... (FInnish JU-88 squadron, for others).

12.6. level bombing at night, 2345-0015
14.6. dive bombing with 12 88s, target Soviet tank unit
16.6. dive bombing with 10 88s, target Soviet ships
19.6. dive bombing, target Soviet ships
22.6. dive bombing, target area target
23.6. both dive and level bombing, 11 88s, target Soviet shipping and invasion beachhead. Cloud level low 2600-3000 meters, so some planes were forced to bomb from level. (diving preferred)
28.6. diving bombing with 11 ju88s, target Tali bridges
29.6. dive bombing with 12 88s, target Soviet troop concentration
30.6. dive bombing with 12 88s, target troop concentration. Dive from 4000 meters, bomb release at 2500 meters.
1.7. dive bombing with 7 88s, target Soviet shipping

"Quote: Bombed with dive bombing 6-7 large ships, east of Pulliniemi at 14.35. Bombs 5 x 1000 kg, 4 x 500 kg and 14 x 250 kg. One direct hit to a large ship, ship exploded. Another big ship hit with two bombs. A third smaller ship sunk immediately. 1000 kg bomb missed a large ship with 15 meters, the ship did not move anymore and leaked oil. JK-262 was attacked with two Soviet fighters, who followed it for 30-40 km without firing. Own Messerschmitts escorted"
-
3.7. attack, no mention of tactics
5.7. both level and dive bombing, 10 Ju88s, target Soviet forces at Tali-Ihantala
5.7. attack to Äyräpää, no mention of tactics
8.7. dive bombin with 9 88s, target Soviet tanks, concentrations and artillery at Äyräpää.

Source: Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia 4, LeR4 (Finnish Air Force History, Bomber Regiment 4), published 2002.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/sih19.html
and History of PommitusLentoLaivue 44 by Matti Hämäläinen, 2003"

Hope this clears the dive-bombing aspect...


< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 2/23/2006 2:58:31 PM >

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 2:56:46 PM   
wild_Willie2


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quote:

H-16 version an and Ju-88A range was 2730 km... just swith them into miles and you have it:)


(2730/1.6)/60 = 28 hexes even a B24 won' t go that far.......

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 3:09:05 PM   
Arkady


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Status: offline 		well, it is transfer range...
count 14 for extended and 9 for normal range

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 3:10:24 PM   
Sneer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Using WitP rules the German aircraft would do very well since the system gives a combat bonus for numeric superiority.

In fact using the WitP combat system would certainly give the Germans a win in the Battle of Britian.


Yes and you need to add that whole battle would take less than 1 week time

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 3:20:23 PM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		Plus German Messerschmitt was bit faster than both Spitfire and Hurricane during BoB, so that's additional advantage for Germans in WitP combat calculations !!

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 4:02:51 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

FW 190 could hold its own vs any Allied fighter and was better than anything the Japanese had (IMHO), the Bf-109 would have a little trouble vs Mustangs, Thunderbolts & Spitfires but was again better than Japanese fighters.


Actually, in the expert opinion of aviation leaders in wartime Japan, it was not. They had licence agreements to build German planes, and had imported a number for testing purposes, and continued to do so during the war. Ernst Hienkel spent years in Japan at Hitachi, and a number of his planes had some influence on Japanese designs, while others almost were produced (including a remarkable recon plane). The Ki-44 was chosen over the German competators, and Rene Francillon says (in his difinitive Japanese Aircraft of the Second World War) they had no reason to regret the decision. The Ki-44 actually is better than a FW-190 - if you don't cheat and pick marks not available on a same date basis.

There were technical design problems with most German aircraft re the Pacific: they lacked the range (a lot like IJA aircraft did - for a similar reason - they were designed to fight on the Eurasian land mass). The FW-200 was in fact purchased, but it didn't quite make it into production, and it was a very haphazzard military aircraft (being a converted airliner).
Japan also never forgot about Russia and its planes were designed for cold weather operations in a sense few other nations did. Only late in the war did German aircraft impress the Japanese, who successfully designed jet engines, rocket engines, and airframes based on information the Germans supplied. They also had some interesting guided missiles and smart bombs in development - also overtaken by events and delayed by the horrible state of late war industry.

WWII involved astonishing evolution of aircraft. It has not been so since.
During the war very new and modern ideas became obsolescent in a couple of years. The Japanese aircraft industry was heavily influenced by foreign aircraft designers (as, in fact all aircraft industries are). But the situation was different in Japan, and that resulted in different requirements than Germany had. There is a new study of German bomber programs and concepts (Luftwaffe Over America) - and it is depressing reading. In many ways the Germans never had a plan, and could not execute the plans they had, and often failed to even realize the designes they decided to make - or it took far too long. Often - by the time a design could reach Japan - it was no longer of interest.

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 4:13:25 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

(2730/1.6)/60 = 28 hexes even a B24 won' t go that far.......


B-24D: 200 mph times 855 minutes = 2850 miles = 47.5 hexes
B-24J: 190 mph times 663 minutes = 2099.5 miles = 34.9 hexes
Liberator II: 190 mph x 850 minutes = 2692.8 miles = 44.8 hexes
Liberator VI: same as B-24J
PB4Y1: 148 mph times 1200 minutes = 2960 miles = 49.3 hexes

These are the Liberators in RHS. The entire air database will enter testing today.

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 4:17:59 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Using WitP rules the German aircraft would do very well since the system gives a combat bonus for numeric superiority.


There is an algorithm from World War I that seems generally to be correct - and it holds numbers DO matter. But I am not persuaded they matter in WITP. They do not appear to be modeled correctly. In some ways you can say they matter too much (a really big battle involves fewer engagements per plane in reality), but for a regular battle there is no real "ganging up" on the outnumbered side - everyone sedately pairs off!

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 6:09:15 PM   
wild_Willie2


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quote:

well, it is transfer range...
count 14 for extended and 9 for normal range


So the ju88 had better range than allied and japanese medium bombers, how about armor and bombload?.
I know that defensive armament was quite light compared to allies bombers (3-4 7,9mm mg's)...

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 6:26:42 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

quote:

well, it is transfer range...
count 14 for extended and 9 for normal range


So the ju88 had better range than allied and japanese medium bombers, how about armor and bombload?.
I know that defensive armament was quite light compared to allies bombers (3-4 7,9mm mg's)...


It all depends on what Mark and model of the Ju-88 you speak of. The bomber models certainly didn't have anything like the range of the Betty or the Nell, or the defensive armament of the B-25 or B-26.
It was a fast, capable, and flexible airframe that did good service in many roles, but it wasn't a super-aircraft. It was the best of German Bomber A/C produced in any numbers, and used in virtually every role an aircraft could be asked to perform except transport.

It's kind of like the situation with the Fw-190. The A models (1942) were excellent performers at low and medium altitudes and were the mainstay fighter-bomber of the Luftwaffe---but above 20,000 ft performance started to fall off. The D model (1944) was almost a totally different aircraft with excellent high altitude performance..., but wasn't much good as a fighter-bomber or at low altitude.

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 6:28:21 PM   
niceguy2005


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Status: offline 		I was just watching a show on WWII ac last night. I think the JU88 Stuka would have been outdated by the time 1943 roled around. I fine early war plane when facing early Brittish, French and Russian aircraft. Wildcats would have chased it down and chewed them up.

Similarly, it is hard to compare ac from Europe to the pacific because of the differences in the war. European AC were often more about ground support and air superiority missions. The pacific was about having the range to find and reach your enemy and defend yourself while doing it. The US tended to allocate its AC accordingly.

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 6:56:53 PM   
Przemcio231


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Status: offline 		Well as for Ju-87Stuka this plane was crappy from the beggin facing any fighter even at the beggining of the war including Crappy Polish P.11C the reason it suceded in the beggining was that the Allies had a crapy Fighter doctrine and Stukas were under constant cover by Bf-109's it changed during the BoB when Fighters become guided by radar to its targets and the Stuka were not as heavily escorted...

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 7:19:14 PM   
Honda


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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 7:24:24 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

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Status: offline 		well, you can´t compare ETO and PTO...

the Ju88, He111 and (with working Engines) the He2?? (in the second i forget the name... grrr... the 4engine Plane with 2 props... ) could be dangerous enemies... but they are no specialist in naval air war...

the stuka (ju87) is deadly but has no defence (like the val or the dauntless), so try them against well defended ships, this will hurt you.

the fighters lack range, sure you could produce long range FW190s... this will cause extreme problems to carrier based planes... fast and heavy armed and the fighting for the naval was not in very high alts (so the 20000feet alt performance problems will not cause huge problems)... the "best" plane for naval fighting would be the Do335... long range, 2 engines, very fast and well armed... also could be used as a fighterbomber, even a torpedo could be used...

for the Ju88/Ju188/He2???, they could carry guided bombs... very funny (not for the enemies) from spring 43 on... they killed the italien roma with one of these little toys. (three hits), and coming from the sky, no defence armor will help you

But you can´t compare a nation so totally ignoring the naval air war (like germany) with the pac war nations...


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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 8:11:01 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

well, you can´t compare ETO and PTO...

the Ju88, He111 and (with working Engines) the He2?? (in the second i forget the name... grrr... the 4engine Plane with 2 props... ) could be dangerous enemies... but they are no specialist in naval air war...

for the Ju88/Ju188/He2???, they could carry guided bombs... very funny (not for the enemies) from spring 43 on... they killed the italien roma with one of these little toys. (three hits), and coming from the sky, no defence armor will help you

But you can´t compare a nation so totally ignoring the naval air war (like germany) with the pac war nations...



Hi,

the Ju 88A-14 and Ju 88A-17 were specialized naval attack versions of the Ju 88 (the A-17 carried torpedoes). And the guided bombs you referred to ("Fritz X") were developed to attack surface ships and more than a nuisance to Allied ships at Anzio. The Luftwaffe was certainly not totally ignorant of naval air war, but there were other priorities that came first (and limited capacities).

K

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 8:18:25 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		Didn't you mean "Nothing more than a nuisance at Anzio?" The Fritz were another good idea not quite executed properly and not strategically significant.

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 8:56:20 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Didn't you mean "Nothing more than a nuisance at Anzio?" The Fritz were another good idea not quite executed properly and not strategically significant.


Yup, should have said "Salerno" because they were quite effective then (BB Warspite, BB Italia and CL Uganda were heavily damaged, BB Roma sunk, the Italian BB's not exactly at Salerno, of course) - at least somewhat more effective than the silly Japanese Kamikaze stuff. At least a nuisance in 1943... (nothing that the Germans did in 1944 was eventually strategically significant because they had already lost the war by then!).

K

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< Message edited by Kereguelen -- 2/23/2006 9:18:43 PM >

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 9:03:49 PM   
String


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*Click here to see a picture of the attack*

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 10:25:19 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

FW 190 could hold its own vs any Allied fighter and was better than anything the Japanese had (IMHO), the Bf-109 would have a little trouble vs Mustangs, Thunderbolts & Spitfires but was again better than Japanese fighters.



The fw 190 probably could hold its own against any allied late war fighter. The bf 109 was simply outdated. Mustangs would chew them up. Of course, as with any comparrison, you have to consider carefully the role in which they are used.

Also, pilot skill is crucial. Some AC, are superb in the hands of a pilot that knows how to capitalize on its characteristics, while a death trap for much less experienced pilots. Some planes were easier to master, like the P-47, while others took a longtime to fly with great proficiency.


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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 10:30:38 PM   
Feinder


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quote:

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Forbidden!

(* shrug *)

I think mission is important to comparison. While I don't know ranges of German fighters, I expect they're probably overall shorter. Then again, they didn't have to fly that far. They also had more punch compared to Japanese fighters, but their mission was to knock down heavy bombers. German bombers were largely for close support with (overall) shorter ranger. Again, their mission differed from Japans (longer ranges necessary, and more use vs. ships).

There's also the discussion about Radial vs. Inline engines (most German planes were inline, most Japanese were Radial). I think Radials had less HP, but stood up to the tropical climates much better (I may be way off, anyone is welcome to tell me I'm full of crap).

-F-

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 2/23/2006 10:40:04 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I think Radials had less HP, but stood up to the tropical climates much better (I may be way off, anyone is welcome to tell me I'm full of crap).

-F-


Feinder, you're full of...just kidding.

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