RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ?

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 5:44:41 PM

Demosthenes

Posts: 525
Joined: 12/8/2005
From: Los Angeles CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

well The Monarchs of A-H were wise and just people...

Unless one was a Protestant during the Thirty Years War....

Seriously, "rules" of war is the worst attempt by humankind to mask an evil with honor. There are no rules in war, and playing by some imagined set hinders the most important goal: to win and get on with peace.

Hi Mynok, I agree with you - but surely you're not saying all rules of war are pointless...I mean you would agree that priosoners of war sholud be treated humanely, etc..

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 211

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 5:51:34 PM

hawker

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From: Split,Croatia
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quote:

About the SHS kingdom I dont know too much, but you are probably right that under Tito Yugoslavia was a power and had a high level of living. But look what followed after. I dont recal though that croatians had such a bad life under hungarian later austrio-hungarian rule. Some of the famous hungarian personalities had croatioan roots (e.g. Zrinyi family)

Croatian people will not forget savage Kuen Hedervary (i think i spell right).
Now Croatia and Hungary are friends and i hope they will be friends forever.
Croatia are Slaven origin,just like Chehs,Slovakia... People from this countrys we in Croatia consider friends,almost like brothers.
P.S.Every summer many Chehs and Slovakian come to rest on this paradise sea

,along with Italians,French,British. Last summer lot of Americans came here. Its far away for Americans but they still come to sea clear sea and towns which are 2000+ years old. I live in town which are 1700 years old.

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Post #: 212

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 6:07:21 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

well The Monarchs of A-H were wise and just people...

Unless one was a Protestant during the Thirty Years War....

Seriously, "rules" of war is the worst attempt by humankind to mask an evil with honor. There are no rules in war, and playing by some imagined set hinders the most important goal: to win and get on with peace.

Hi Mynok, I agree with you - but surely you're not saying all rules of war are pointless...I mean you would agree that priosoners of war sholud be treated humanely, etc..

Yes, I would treat them decently as long as they behaved. They would get a bullet in the head at the very first sign of rebellion. No trial, no gussied up ceremony, just dig a hole and shoot them. I also would not have to gall to complain about my own prisoners getting mistreated.

It's a war. One does whatever it takes to win and quickly. Never start one and always end one. If that means slaughtering one's enemies down to the very last dog, so be it. Hopefully it won't, but you *have already lost* if all your weapons aren't on the table from the start.

(in reply to Demosthenes)

Post #: 213

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 6:09:23 PM

Demosthenes

Posts: 525
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From: Los Angeles CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

well The Monarchs of A-H were wise and just people...

Unless one was a Protestant during the Thirty Years War....

Seriously, "rules" of war is the worst attempt by humankind to mask an evil with honor. There are no rules in war, and playing by some imagined set hinders the most important goal: to win and get on with peace.

Hi Mynok, I agree with you - but surely you're not saying all rules of war are pointless...I mean you would agree that priosoners of war sholud be treated humanely, etc..

Yes, I would treat them decently as long as they behaved. They would get a bullet in the head at the very first sign of rebellion. No trial, no gussied up ceremony, just dig a hole and shoot them. I also would not have to gall to complain about my own prisoners getting mistreated.

It's a war. One does whatever it takes to win and quickly. Never start one and always end one. If that means slaughtering one's enemies down to the very last dog, so be it. Hopefully it won't, but you *have already lost* if all your weapons aren't on the table from the start.

Totally agree with that - rules of war work both ways ...otherwise all bets are off!

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 214

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 6:20:11 PM

Mynok

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Yep, it utterly foolhardy to play by the rules when one's enemy is not.

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Post #: 215

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 6:38:43 PM

niceguy2005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Yep, it utterly foolhardy to play by the rules when one's enemy is not.

Mynok, I must respectfully disagree. My enemy may beat me one day, but he will never defeat me by forcing me to act against my values. I may have to work longer and harder to find a way to defeat him, but I will never surrender myself and become him.

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Post #: 216

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 6:40:03 PM

mdiehl

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quote:

As for Me-262 you don't need the range when you operate as an interceptor over your territory with a Radar Net able to detect Incoming Raid

Yes you do need the range. Or rather, more specifically, you need the endurance (capability to stay in the air for a while). The ME-262 was in some respects a great aircraft. But its poor endurance was such an overwhelming disadvantage that it substantially undermined its effectiveness for its designed role as an interceptor.

Look at it this way. You have an aircraft with about 1/2 hour- 1hour of air time. Because of that and its slow acceleration it has a limited capability to remain in combat and it has to take off relatively soon prior to the arrival of an incoming raid. By late 1944 the implication was that Allied bombers could be preceeded by fighter sweeps that could effectively catch the ME-262s on the ground, thereby eliminating *ALL* of its strategic utility.

As an air show aircraft the ME-262 was a great plane. If Junkers could have developed more thrust from their engines and gone with a single engined in-line (inside the fusealge, rather than suspended from the wings in nacelles) design I suspect it could have been a real problem. But with the low thrust engines, requiring two engines, and the wing-nacelle design (which was a relatively high drag design) it could not effectively do the job for which it was designed.

There must be some actual aircraft engineers lurking around here. As I recall there is some basic formula for lift to weight or thrust to weight. Each time you double the weight you need to increase lift (or is it thrust?) by a factor of eight or something like that. Therein lies the rub with the ME-262. It was a great idea that was executed before it was really ready for use.

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 217

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 6:50:16 PM

Ursa MAior

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Stjepan Matkovi�: Ban Khuen-H�derv�ry � zna�enje i utjecaji (Khuen-H�derv�ry b�n � jelent�s�ge �s hat�sa). Povijest u nastavi. 2003/1. 15�47. o.

I looked after and found these. Hm. I only knew he was a PM. I did not know about it.

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Post #: 218

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 7:21:40 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Yep, it utterly foolhardy to play by the rules when one's enemy is not.

Mynok, I must respectfully disagree. My enemy may beat me one day, but he will never defeat me by forcing me to act against my values. I may have to work longer and harder to find a way to defeat him, but I will never surrender myself and become him.

Yes, I understand this argument. You will end up having to explain how you can even fight without breeching your values, because I assume you have some values about murder, correct?

Throw away all the human-contrived laws and rules and "rights". Get down to one man vs one man. If he comes after you with every intent on killing you, you are either going to defend yourself or you are not. Both are acceptable moral choices. If you do defend yourself, you are going to do it by any means necessary, are you not? You would have no qualms about fighting dirty in that circumstance, would you? Well it is absolutely no different when it is millions against millions. It is the exact same moral question.

EDIT: In order to avoid hijacking this thread, respond via PM if you care to discuss.......I'll not respond here anymore on this.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 3/1/2006 7:33:49 PM >

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Post #: 219

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 11:06:59 PM

Przemcio231

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Mynok there was no such thing as Austro-Hungary during the Thirty Years War

and if im remeber the story correctly there was a revolt in Hungary ageainst the Hapsburg in the Early XVII century

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Post #: 220

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 11:44:48 PM

Mynok

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The rulers of Austria-Hungary were Hapsburgs, just like in the Thirty Years War......but you are correct, the empire had changed and expanded since then, and the Hungarians had achieved a dual monarchy position.

Peace of Vienna in 1606 ended the Hungarian revolt, which apparently (after some hasty reading) was actually not in Hungary, as that was ostensibly under Ottoman control, but in "Royal Hungary" or what is modern Slovakia.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 3/1/2006 11:49:46 PM >

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Post #: 221

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/1/2006 11:50:29 PM

Przemcio231

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right that is my Point

Well but from the late XVIII century the Hapsburgs rulling Austria were realy wise Monarchs...

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 1:08:45 AM

Ursa MAior

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Exactly, but not wise enough to stay out of WWI.

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Post #: 223

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 7:02:15 AM

Mynok

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They had no choice about joining WWI.

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 7:08:45 AM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

They had no choice about joining WWI.

TRUE. They started it. The Serbs gave way to almost all of the demeaning demands the Austrians made after the assassination. Had the Austrians been realistic they would have settled for humiliating them---but they pushed it into armed conflict. They were that most dangerous of entities---a former 1st rank Power on it's way down and grasping at straws to maintain former glories.

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 8:08:05 AM

pauk

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From: Zagreb,Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
But Hungary was probably Germany's most loyal Ally.

I think this one goes to the finns, but we were the last to leave their side, mainly due to the occupation in 16 march, 1944. After we were nothing but a puppet state. Before Hungary was the refuge of jews, poles and other people mistreated by the nazis.

Hm... depends how you look at this. The last German Ally who leave Axis side were Croatia ( Independent State of Croatia, puppet state) - actually ISC never leave their German ally (not that i'm proud of it - this was very stupid and not politically wise). Thats was probably one of the reasons why British sent Croatian refugees who fleed in Austria(soldiers - some of them were war criminals, but majority of them were regular soldiers and civilians) back in territory controlled by Tito's partisans where they slaughtered after the WWII was finished (from May 15th).

On the other hand, not all Croatians were on the Axis side, lots of them were in ressistance (Tito's partisans) so things are really complicated. To avoid confusion i have to state that afterwar slaughter was commited by Tito's men who were other nationalities, but cant bring you here details since it this crime was top secret last 40 years (including UK where book about slaughter at Bleiburg written by count Nicolai Tolstoy is banned and Tolstoy was fined, i think) so lots of stuff remains fogged....

< Message edited by pauk -- 3/2/2006 8:50:32 AM >

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 8:16:20 AM

pauk

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From: Zagreb,Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

El Cid - Magyars not Mongols

They arrived in Hungary at the end of the 9th Century at Przemek says. Raided much of Europe in the manner of the earlier asiatic invaders such as the Avars, Bulgars, Huns etc. etc. until they were beaten at Lechfield in 955 AD after which they settled down somewhat

The Magyars were not ethnic Slavs like many of their neighbours and I believe this is why their language is so different from the Slavic languages around them, although doubtless over 1000+ years there has been a lot of cross over

Interestingly, according to last genetic research Magyars have more "Slavic genes" than some other Slavic nations. I want to make clear state that these genetic researchs are at the begining and no conclusion is possible to make.

But it seems that these researches are only hope to get clear picture of the ancient migrations and to find out how ethnic groups were created (one of scienists is Bryan Sykes and one Italian scienist - i can not recall his name

))

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RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 8:47:37 AM

pauk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker
You are wrong Przemcio,my country,Croatia,was under Austro-Hungary boot and there is most trouble time for my country-Repression,killings...
It was much better under comunist party.

well Hawker it is hard to compare these two periods.

19th century (that is time period about you are talking) was period in which most of "small" nations were "formed" (hm, hope that you understand what i want to say, i'm talking about national feelings). Some nations were aware that they are Nation even before (i'm talking about (positive) nationalism) - let's mention English nation. IMO English nation starts to form in 100 years war against the French. Before that Saxson peasants didn't bother who is their king and from where (actually they probably knew there is, somewhere, English king). It may be intersting but English kings (after the Hastings and until The hundred years war) spoke french, not proto- english (saxonian). That explains why germanic (English) language have so many roman root words (all words regarding the law are coming from French language (and therefore from Latin language) - jury, debt, money....etc)...

ok back to original question - English were formed as nation in 18th century, French after Revolution 1789.... but things in multi-ethnic Habsburg Monarchy were different. Howewer Magyars were formed as modern nation and in revolution 1848 they demand they national rights... but at the same time they denied national rights to other nations: Croatians and Slovaks)...

Ok, we were in the pressure by the time of Khuen Hedervary (Magyar from Slavonia, part of Croatia), exposed to hungarisation, but fortunalty we were formed as modern nation too by the end of the 19th century.( i would say it was "normal" for that period). You shouldn't forget our national Theatre was build by the time of Khuen, that railroads were build too (although railroad suits to Magyar interests) but there were no mass kilings like we have in 1945.

Next, the communists really messed up and they are certainly main reason why contries in transition (ex-communist states) have so much trouble today. Look what they did in Germany. Just compare former "West German" with "East German" and their efficiency at the work. I have many reson to dislike modern capitalism (especially in the transition countries) but socialism (communism) totally destroyed "labour habits"....

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse"

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Post #: 228

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 1:34:43 PM

Przemcio231

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From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
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Well Seaid Pauk... My nation suffered much from Russian or Germans-Prussian but i do not hate any one of those nations... becouse what a common russian or german citizen had to do with Hitler or Stalin... the answer is nothing... and we are all humans after all

i wounder when the humanity will understand that their nationality or religion means really nothing... The only people i do not tolerate are some "Look at us whe have the greates country in the World and we are better then you" in this number saddly are mostly Americans... once i wrote somehing about that i do not hate Russians and some guy from US who has Polish origins accused me of being a commie... as he stated if im a Pole and i do not hate Russians i must be a commie or ukrainian... well the thing with poles living in Us is intresting escpecialy those who emigrated in the erly 20th Century and their familys... they think that Poland is a poor country people have problems with buying food or fruits... of course this is all BS but they still pass it to their american friends and when some of them comes here he is shocekd becouse he is in a normal modern country not some IIIrd World country like Somalia

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Post #: 229

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 2:01:03 PM

el cid again

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quote:

No problem El Cid... where are you from

I grew up near the Great Lakes in Michigan - in the North central USA.
I am the grandchild of an immigrant from Wales, but he was ethnic Cornish - so my surname is Cornish Gaelic meaning "from the village of Ethan" in Cornwall. I was somewhat seduced into an interest in history by the retired senior historian of the US Army who was the neighbor of my aunt. Then I "joined the Navy to see the world" and did just that, deploying to and crossing both the Atlantic and Pacific. Uninterested in the insides of bars, I visited every possible historic or geographic point of interest. Unafraid of languages (I already had German and English), I picked up Spanish, Japanese and Vietnamese in my Navy years, and I got the Navy to pay for me to study Greek and Hebrew - which my instructor decided should also include Arabic. Married in China to a Filipina (who was half Chinese) I later learned Tagalog (Filipino) - and Vietnamese and Japanese mean I can read Mandarin (sort of - the problem being there are up to 12 different meanings for each symbol!). I am regarded as "part of" several ethinic groups - and in the case of the Philippines this is a legal as well as a social fact. I do not have a narrow or defensive view of different countries, cultures, or organizations. I have a friend who is a Croatian (on this board) and another who is a Serb (in my city) and another who is Czech (in an international board I run on China). I am pretty Asia focused of late - and a bit of an expert on the PLA - but I love WWII history and my education was of course Eurocentric.

(in reply to Przemcio231)

Post #: 230

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 2:16:53 PM

el cid again

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quote:

If you do defend yourself, you are going to do it by any means necessary, are you not?

For the record - and I have seen way too much combat over the years - big and small - no I will not. See Michael Walzer's Just and Unjust Wars.
[Walzer served as a captain in WWII]. Rules keep you sane. You are defined by what you do. Win or lose, live or die, I never allow the enemy to define who I am. And mostly I fought enemies who do not honor my rules (wether Vietnamese, or terrorists, or drug trafficers, or slavers - NONE of them honor the Geneva conventions - but I do). When confronted by American war criminals (in a personal sense) engaged in the practice of rape-murder, it never occurred to me that they were my friends or for any other reason exempt from the rules: I was on the side of the victim and she is the one who lived ( in a cultural situation where she could NEVER even speak to me - this was not for personal gain ).

For the sake of the historical record, let me say that the codified law of war (vice the traditional law of war, both of which are binding in US courts) is an American invention. Specifically it was invented by US President Lincoln in the form of The Regulations for the Governing of the Armies in the Field. He did not expect, or intend, that the rules would be used by the enemy - or the world. But Confederate President Jefferson Davis had the same political and moral problems, and adopted them WITHOUT modification. This was the biggest war in modern times (measured in terms of troops in the field) - and the world was impressed - and a series of conventions came up with the international version of the code. But these rules were invented for use by us for our own sake - and not related to wether or not the enemy used them. The major benefits of the rules are good order and discipline in the ranks, political support of the war at home, less opposition to occupation in territories we occupy, less trouble with prisoners, and our own sanity - not one of them trivial.

In Viet Nam it became popular to say "the French were right" meaning "torture is acceptable if it will save lives." We had to learn the hard way that the French are wrong. We had men go insane - torture is hard on the torturer (never mind the victim). Absolute power is dangerous. People get to like it. When there is no enemy, they will use any handy neutral or civilian. When there is no neutral or civilian, they will use any handy American soldier. They get so bad you cannot treat them - often you must kill them. Only by good fortune did I avoid this fate: (a) I was trained by the Marines, who taught clearly, instead of the Army, that didn't; (b) I had a sense of morality even though I didn't know the law in great detail - and it turned out that what was moral was also what is legal (I eventually learned). I am not the sort to go along with the plot in Casualties of War - not only would I not rape - I would have arrested or killed as many US soldiers as it took to save her - and in a similar situation I did exactly that. [Except it was not my own men involved, but US Army men: their CO backed me up however]. I am very glad I didn't serve on USS Wahoo when it machine gunned swimmers for hours on end - because either the captain or I would have ended up in irons! I am a Navy man in the most proud sense, and that includes that we are civilized. Convenient or not.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 231

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 5:00:46 PM

pauk

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From: Zagreb,Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
For the record - and I have seen way too much combat over the years - big and small - no I will not. See Michael Walzer's Just and Unjust Wars.
[Walzer served as a captain in WWII]. Rules keep you sane. You are defined by what you do. Win or lose, live or die, I never allow the enemy to define who I am. And mostly I fought enemies who do not honor my rules (wether Vietnamese, or terrorists, or drug trafficers, or slavers - NONE of them honor the Geneva conventions - but I do). When confronted by American war criminals (in a personal sense) engaged in the practice of rape-murder, it never occurred to me that they were my friends or for any other reason exempt from the rules: I was on the side of the victim and she is the one who lived ( in a cultural situation where she could NEVER even speak to me - this was not for personal gain ).

For the sake of the historical record, let me say that the codified law of war (vice the traditional law of war, both of which are binding in US courts) is an American invention. Specifically it was invented by US President Lincoln in the form of The Regulations for the Governing of the Armies in the Field. He did not expect, or intend, that the rules would be used by the enemy - or the world. But Confederate President Jefferson Davis had the same political and moral problems, and adopted them WITHOUT modification. This was the biggest war in modern times (measured in terms of troops in the field) - and the world was impressed - and a series of conventions came up with the international version of the code. But these rules were invented for use by us for our own sake - and not related to wether or not the enemy used them. The major benefits of the rules are good order and discipline in the ranks, political support of the war at home, less opposition to occupation in territories we occupy, less trouble with prisoners, and our own sanity - not one of them trivial.

In Viet Nam it became popular to say "the French were right" meaning "torture is acceptable if it will save lives." We had to learn the hard way that the French are wrong. We had men go insane - torture is hard on the torturer (never mind the victim). Absolute power is dangerous. People get to like it. When there is no enemy, they will use any handy neutral or civilian. When there is no neutral or civilian, they will use any handy American soldier. They get so bad you cannot treat them - often you must kill them. Only by good fortune did I avoid this fate: (a) I was trained by the Marines, who taught clearly, instead of the Army, that didn't; (b) I had a sense of morality even though I didn't know the law in great detail - and it turned out that what was moral was also what is legal (I eventually learned). I am not the sort to go along with the plot in Casualties of War - not only would I not rape - I would have arrested or killed as many US soldiers as it took to save her - and in a similar situation I did exactly that. [Except it was not my own men involved, but US Army men: their CO backed me up however]. I am very glad I didn't serve on USS Wahoo when it machine gunned swimmers for hours on end - because either the captain or I would have ended up in irons! I am a Navy man in the most proud sense, and that includes that we are civilized. Convenient or not.

el cid, i'm more than impressed.

< Message edited by pauk -- 3/2/2006 5:01:16 PM >

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Post #: 232

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/2/2006 5:12:38 PM

Mynok

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quote:

You are defined by what you do.

Absolutely wrong. What you do is a reflection of what you already are. Your character and nature is what drives your will, and your will is what initiates actions.

Rape is just thuggery and does nothing to further one's cause. I don't even consider that an issue. That's covered under military discipline, which is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking more about being more concerned about killing civilians than ending a war--macro level decisions.

Again, I'd rather discuss this in a different thread rather than hijack this one.

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 233

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/3/2006 2:14:17 PM

el cid again

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quote:

You are defined by what you do.

Absolutely wrong. What you do is a reflection of what you already are. Your character and nature is what drives your will, and your will is what initiates actions.

If you had the opportunity to interview people in numbers returning from a war zone, you might change your mind. It is pretty easy for young people to be led into bad situations, and end up doing things they would not otherwise have done. Military organization is designed to insure members do what leaders want them to do - in spite of their will or better judgement. American military organization has been bold in the advocating (since its foundation) a standard in which members might NOT do what was ordered (if it is not lawful). [Japan, in contrast, had a standard that a member might NOT do what was ordered if the motive was patriotic - which turned out to be a very wild card.] But the idea that there are no real rules (laws) takes the teeth out of "you don't have to obey an unlawful order." Turns out, what is lawful is lawful for solid, practical reasons, not some sort of prissy theory. And it was not forced on us by some liberal, socialist European powers either - we invented it - we invented it and prooved it during the American Civil War - and the rest of the world came along for the ride. The practical reasons include a wide variety of effects:

1) It is easier to recruit members when conditions are more reasonable (i.e. we must care for the wounded)

2) It generates more political support at home (as opposed to losing elections) if we behave in a way our public respects

3) It generates more political support in other countries (as opposed to political opposition) if we behave in ways other publics respect

4) It generates fewer attempts to escape by POWS (if they know they will be treated well and given medical care)

5) I generates fewer acts of resistence in occupied areas (if civilians are treated justly and reasonably)

but the biggie is this

6) It contributes to good order and discipline of own forces, and renders troops more combat effective, if we behave in ways that are reasonable.

The doctrine of "win the hearts and minds" is from the USMC Manual for Small Wars - worked out in colonial and near-colonial situations over more than a century. I saw it work. Getting along with the natives results in intelligence. Intelligence gives you the initiative and robs the enemy of it. [Behaving badly does the exact opposite] Getting along with the natives can even result in their deciding they would rather you win than lose, even if they have to pick up rifles and help. At a critical moment, I found it quite useful (in a very practical military tactical sense) to go into a firefight about 100% overstrength. I am very glad I was trained by Marines to behave in ways that permit good relations - and I never was ashamed of my conduct later (as many vets we council are).

Soldiers are political instrumentalities and need to understand that. IF they are not solving political problems for their government, they are not doing their job. If they are making political problems for their government, they are being actually counterproductive in terms of what the mission of the military is. US sailors are told "you are ambassadors for your country" - and I think that is exactly correct. If you don't take that seriously - you risk making the reason you were sent become moot - or worse - you risk making people wish you had not come at all. That is not your job: your job is to solve some political problem. See Liddle-Hart in Strategy. "The object in war is a better state of peace - even if only from your own point of view." He also advises you never to forget you will eventually have to make peace with THIS enemy. Never act in a way that makes that harder to do. Win the respect of your enemy, the local natives, your own people back home, and people in neutral countries, and you will have a much better chance of achieving your objective. Fail to do that and you will utterly fail in your mission, aside from the issues related to making it harder on yourself tactically, and harder on yourself emotionally. [People who behave badly usually regret it - unless they are already insane - in which case they do not belong in the military anyway.]

< Message edited by el cid again -- 3/3/2006 2:20:37 PM >

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 234

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/3/2006 4:00:20 PM

keeferon01

Posts: 334
Joined: 6/18/2005
From: North Carolina
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quote:

The doctrine of "win the hearts and minds" is from the USMC Manual for Small Wars - worked out in colonial and near-colonial situations over more than a century

The British Army wrote devised and have applied the doctrine over 300 years of warfare, sometimes it works and sometimes it does not, just look at the area of Iraq the British are currently in, seems to working yes.

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(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 235

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/3/2006 4:05:30 PM

Demosthenes

Posts: 525
Joined: 12/8/2005
From: Los Angeles CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron James

quote:

The doctrine of "win the hearts and minds" is from the USMC Manual for Small Wars - worked out in colonial and near-colonial situations over more than a century

The British Army wrote devised and have applied the doctrine over 300 years of warfare, sometimes it works and sometimes it does not, just look at the area of Iraq the British are currently in, seems to working yes.

Obviously the British weren't always successful with that policy - or else the USA would be the jewel of the British Empire today! (...that's a joke)

(in reply to keeferon01)

Post #: 236

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/3/2006 4:22:02 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
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quote:

Win the respect of your enemy, the local natives, your own people back home, and people in neutral countries, and you will have a much better chance of achieving your objective.

There are enemies that one does not make peace with. One can only destroy them utterly. These are the enemies we are dealing with today.

You are arguing about unit discipline and soldier behavior. I am not. I am saying that it is our political goals and political methods of fighting war are foolishly restricted by some wierd concept of making war "honorably". We won't use weapons in our arsenal because they are not politically expedient. That is bullcrap.

Lastly, if someone gets "led into" doing something they normally would not do, then I would contend that it is indeed a character issue: they are wusses. Stick by your convictions or don't bother having them.

(in reply to Demosthenes)

Post #: 237

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/3/2006 7:49:05 PM

Ursa MAior

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Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
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Beware Mynok. If you back your invasion of a country with the slogans of justice and righteousness, and democracy and else, you have to pay attention to act acordingly.

Of cours no one should and could complain if any major power would say I want oil, I want land or I want resources. I am stronger I take it. Bu that's just not the situation. People in Iraq might righteously ask what are you doing there. Why are nt you liberating say North korea or Cuba. Both countries' leader deserve much more what Saddam gets now.

I am NO FAN OF DICTATORS, but as I see Saddam was lately whta was Kadar to Hungary. A ruthles ruler who CARES about the well being of his people, or at least does so (unlke Castro and Kim Jong Il).

BTW what do you expect them to do? Form divisions and fight a technically advanced enemy and get slaughtered? Or to restrict their actions to protests? They are occupied and they resist as they can. Terrorism -or guerilla warfare- call it as you want is the weapon of the weak against the strong. The situation bears striking resemblence to what happened in Spain 1808. Unpopular leaders (Bourbons and Saddam),an influential church (roman catholic and moslem), foreign occupation (french and US), occupying forces claim to be liberating but only bring disorder, the forcing of completely alien ideas on the people (french ideas of republic and atheism on the contemporary world's probably most religious country and democracy and secularized state by the US), rebellion in the whole country. Did I forgot something?

Oh yes and the word guerilla (spanish -little war) was used first in conjunction with the revolting spanish peasants. They fought just as ferociously, savagely and without rules as the iraqis do now (or the cretans did against the german paratroopers in 1941).

< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 3/3/2006 7:51:34 PM >

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Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 238

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/3/2006 8:05:09 PM

Demosthenes

Posts: 525
Joined: 12/8/2005
From: Los Angeles CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
...

Of cours no one should and could complain if any major power would say I want oil, I want land or I want resources. I am stronger I take it. Bu that's just not the situation. People in Iraq might righteously ask what are you doing there. Why are nt you liberating say North korea or Cuba. Both countries' leader deserve much more what Saddam gets now.

I am NO FAN OF DICTATORS, but as I see Saddam was lately whta was Kadar to Hungary. A ruthles ruler who CARES about the well being of his people, or at least does so (unlke Castro and Kim Jong Il).

BTW what do you expect them to do? Form divisions and fight a technically advanced enemy and get slaughtered? Or to restrict their actions to protests? They are occupied and they resist as they can. Terrorism -or guerilla warfare- call it as you want is the weapon of the weak against the strong. The situation bears striking resemblence to what happened in Spain 1808. Unpopular leaders (Bourbons and Saddam),an influential church (roman catholic and moslem), foreign occupation (french and US), occupying forces claim to be liberating but only bring disorder, the forcing of completely alien ideas on the people (french ideas of republic and atheism on the contemporary world's probably most religious country and democracy and secularized state by the US), rebellion in the whole country. Did I forgot something?

Oh yes and the word guerilla (spanish -little war) was used first in conjunction with the revolting spanish peasants. They fought just as ferociously, savagely and without rules as the iraqis do now (or the cretans did against the german paratroopers in 1941).

Why Ursa! Write this date down - we actually agree!!!

EDIT: This is as far as I will go with contemporary politics (taboo)

From now on I will refine my politics to past history...

< Message edited by Demosthenes -- 3/3/2006 8:08:33 PM >

(in reply to Ursa MAior)

Post #: 239

RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? - 3/3/2006 8:21:06 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

Beware Mynok. If you back your invasion of a country with the slogans of justice and righteousness, and democracy and else, you have to pay attention to act acordingly.

I'm not addressing any current situation. You are inferring a position statement where there is none.

My position is strictly philosophical: if one must go to war, then go to war with intent to finish it quickly and do not impose arbitrary limitations on one's ability to do so.

(in reply to Demosthenes)

Post #: 240

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