RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/13/2006 11:40:57 PM

el cid again

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Separately, I think carrier planes should be treated differently than land-based planes for purposes of whether they fly or not when attacking other sea-based targets. LBA might elect not to fly in fear of being slaughtered. CBA knows it would also get slaughtered if it fails to fly.

I do think that CBA should still have chances of attacking the wrong target (thanks for the write-up Joe!), but maybe get a bonus to be more likely to identify carriers correctly (like m10bob says).

Both your wishes were granted - in advance of being made - by the programmers! [It is like the gospel song says: "sooner than right now, faster than immediately, God answer's prayer"] This is the way the code was written and works. One may quibble with variables and die percentiles, but those are quibbles.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 31

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/13/2006 11:50:00 PM

mdiehl

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

Like the Swordfish that attacked a US Coast Guard cutter instead of Bismark...

Never happened. Swordfish flew past USCGC Modoc (WPG 46). No attacks were made on Modoc.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 32

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/13/2006 11:57:57 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

The attack was made on the Sheffield, wasn't it?

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to mdiehl)

Post #: 33

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 12:49:21 AM

spence

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

Not sure whether a couple of drops were actually made on Sheffield. The Swordfish did initiate an attack but I believe at some point during said attack Sheffield was recognized as friendly and the attacks were broken off.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 34

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 12:50:29 AM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

Here is another example...

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/friendlyfire/coral01.htm

quote:

On the 7 May 1942 the Allied Task Force led by HMAS Australia was attempting to intercept a reported Japanese invasion group headed towards Port Moresby.

The Allied Task Force included:-

HMAS Australia
HMAS Canberra
HMAS Hobart
USS Chicago
USS Perkins
USS Walke
USS Farragut

The Japanese Invasion Group was reported to comprise a battleship, two aircraft carriers and 17 transports.

On the afternoon of the 7 May 1942, the Allied Task Force was attacked by twelve twin-engined Japanese torpedo bombers. They dropped their torpedoes and strafed the ships causing minimal damage. Five of the Japanese aircraft were shot down in the encounter.

Not long after this attack, the Allied Task Force was again attacked by nineteen heavy bombers flying over at 18,000 feet. But this time they were not Japanese! They were American B-17 Flying Fortresses, of the 435th Bomb Squadron, 19th Bomb Group, based at Townsville. That were returning to Townsville after a bombing raid in New Guinea. Their bombs straddled HMAS Australia, whose upper decks were swamped with water from the explosion. Some minor damage was reported by bomb shrapnel. A further three aircraft then dropped bombs from 25,000 feet near the USS Perkins. Harry Spieth was one of the pilots involved in this accidental bombing incident. HMAS Australia returned fire with its anti-aircraft guns.

These B-17's had formerly been part of a US Navy Task Force in "Southern Bomber Command". Six of the aircraft in this Task Force had been members of the 88th Reconnaissance Squadron of the 7th Bomb Group. The Navy Task Force was then transferred to the 40th Reconnaissance Squadron of the 19th Bombardment Group, which was later redesignated to become the 435th Bomb Squadron.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 35

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 12:52:46 AM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Not sure whether a couple of drops were actually made on Sheffield. The Swordfish did initiate an attack but I believe at some point during said attack Sheffield was recognized as friendly and the attacks were broken off.

Actually, no fewer than 11 torpedoes were dropped against her.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 36

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 1:01:28 AM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Not sure whether a couple of drops were actually made on Sheffield. The Swordfish did initiate an attack but I believe at some point during said attack Sheffield was recognized as friendly and the attacks were broken off.

Actually, no fewer than 11 torpedoes were dropped against her.

This is true....Google Sheffield and Swordfish

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 37

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 1:02:57 AM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

Found this interesting tidbit looking up Friendly fire stats....

Friendly Fire

quote:

Casualties on US Ships Hit by Allied Gunfire During WW2

                   1942         1943       1944        1945       Total
Ship Type        WIA  KIA     WIA  KIA   WIA  KIA    WIA  KIA    WIA  KIA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carrier           0    0       0    0     0    0     115   16     15   16
Destroyer         8    5       0    0    21    3      80   10    109   18
Battleship        0    0       0    0     0    0      99   21    109   21
Submarine         0    0       0    0     0   83       0    0      0   83
PT Boat           0    0       0    0    23   22       0    4     23   26
Landing Ship      0    0       0    0     0    0      35    3     35    3
Salvage Ship      0    0      18    8     0    0       0    6     18   14
Cruiser           0    0       0    0     0    0      21    2     21    2
Transport         0    0       0    0     0    0       8    1      8    1
Patrol Craft      0    0       0    0     0    0       6    1      6    1
Minesweeper       0    0       0    0     0    0       3    1      3    1
Cargo Ship        0    0       0    0     0    0       1    0      1    0
Seaplane Tender   0    0       0    0     0    0       0    0      0    0
Hospital Ship     0    0       0    0     0    0       0    0      0    0

Total             8    5      18    8    44  108     368   65    438  186

Source:
Gauker, Eleanor D. and Christopher G. Blood. "Friendly Fire Incidents During World War II Naval Operations." Naval War College Review 48, no.1 (Winter 1995): 115-22.

Interestingly more incidents occurred later in the war. Maybe misdirected AA fire.

< Message edited by treespider -- 3/14/2006 1:04:11 AM >

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to treespider)

Post #: 38

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 1:11:31 AM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

Well that, and the simple fact that there were more ships, and they were used more.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to treespider)

Post #: 39

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 2:44:12 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Found this interesting tidbit looking up Friendly fire stats....

Friendly Fire

quote:

Casualties on US Ships Hit by Allied Gunfire During WW2

                   1942         1943       1944        1945       Total
Ship Type        WIA  KIA     WIA  KIA   WIA  KIA    WIA  KIA    WIA  KIA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carrier           0    0       0    0     0    0     115   16     15   16
Destroyer         8    5       0    0    21    3      80   10    109   18
Battleship        0    0       0    0     0    0      99   21    109   21
Submarine         0    0       0    0     0   83       0    0      0   83
PT Boat           0    0       0    0    23   22       0    4     23   26
Landing Ship      0    0       0    0     0    0      35    3     35    3
Salvage Ship      0    0      18    8     0    0       0    6     18   14
Cruiser           0    0       0    0     0    0      21    2     21    2
Transport         0    0       0    0     0    0       8    1      8    1
Patrol Craft      0    0       0    0     0    0       6    1      6    1
Minesweeper       0    0       0    0     0    0       3    1      3    1
Cargo Ship        0    0       0    0     0    0       1    0      1    0
Seaplane Tender   0    0       0    0     0    0       0    0      0    0
Hospital Ship     0    0       0    0     0    0       0    0      0    0

Total             8    5      18    8    44  108     368   65    438  186

Source:
Gauker, Eleanor D. and Christopher G. Blood. "Friendly Fire Incidents During World War II Naval Operations." Naval War College Review 48, no.1 (Winter 1995): 115-22.

Interestingly more incidents occurred later in the war. Maybe misdirected AA fire.

This entire list is potentially useless as it does not even credit the Atlanta, hit by ships in her own TF at 1st Guadalcanal.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to treespider)

Post #: 40

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 3:14:14 AM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

Found this interesting tidbit looking up Friendly fire stats....

Friendly Fire

quote:

Casualties on US Ships Hit by Allied Gunfire During WW2

1942 1943 1944 1945 Total
Ship Type WIA KIA WIA KIA WIA KIA WIA KIA WIA KIA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carrier 0 0 0 0 0 0 115 16 15 16
Destroyer 8 5 0 0 21 3 80 10 109 18
Battleship 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 21 109 21
Submarine 0 0 0 0 0 83 0 0 0 83
PT Boat 0 0 0 0 23 22 0 4 23 26
Landing Ship 0 0 0 0 0 0 35 3 35 3
Salvage Ship 0 0 18 8 0 0 0 6 18 14
Cruiser 0 0 0 0 0 0 21 2 21 2
Transport 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 1 8 1
Patrol Craft 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 1 6 1
Minesweeper 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 1 3 1
Cargo Ship 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0
Seaplane Tender 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Hospital Ship 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Total 8 5 18 8 44 108 368 65 438 186

Source:
Gauker, Eleanor D. and Christopher G. Blood. "Friendly Fire Incidents During World War II Naval Operations." Naval War College Review 48, no.1 (Winter 1995): 115-22.

My dad-in-law served on the Wakefield, and later on the Callaway. From the stories he told me, the high number of friendly fire casualties in 1945 were inflicted by the proximity fuses on the a/a guns.. He claimed it was so thick, the ships were all "rained on", but they were willing to take the risk as it stopped the kamikazes.

_____________________________

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 41

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 3:22:54 AM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

The big problem with "naval strike" is you CAN'T give it any orders, you CAN'T specify any priorities, you CAN'T even suggest a direction.

Remember Gary Grigsby's old game "Carrier Strike"..
Amongst its' great features, was the ability to "micro-manage" the carrier planes, all the way from the load out of the planes, to the *direction* and target they were to attack.
Once the planes arrived at the "last known sighting", the planes would report y radio giving the player the option to have them linger in that same spot, or go for another target.
This option was taken even with fuel being a consideration, (meaning you could opt to have them run out of fuel!!!!)
The ONLY thing that forced the planes back beyond orders was if daylight was fading.
(We all remember when Admiral Marc Mitscher ordered the carriers to turn on their lights to recover his planes. Sometimes there are moments which lend inspiration........)
HE was no "Haul-Ass Jack."

_____________________________

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 42

RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors - 3/14/2006 3:49:06 AM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

This entire list is potentially useless as it does not even credit the Atlanta, hit by ships in her own TF at 1st Guadalcanal.

Here is the source...

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq11-1.htm

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 43

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Game design and 'fudge' factors

Page: << < prev 1 [2]