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RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion

 
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RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/14/2006 9:49:45 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Improvements to avoid this on 12/16/41:

Avoid these type of combat results: Force Z against "ONLY" AP's....Yuck!!!
Day Time Surface Combat, near Amboina at 39,73
Japanese Ships
ML Yaeyama
AP Africa Maru
AP Seizan Maru, on fire
AP Siraha Maru, Shell hits 2
AP Somedono Maru
AP Taihei Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Taizin Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Zyuyo Maru, Shell hits 3, on fire
AP Chinko Maru

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales
BC Repulse
CL Danae
CL Dragon
CL Durban
DD Vampire
DD Vendetta
DD Tenedos
DD Electra
DD Express

Japanese ground losses:
11 casualties reported

It is going to be hard enough to slow you, especially with these results. Opened fire at 22,000 yards and close to 17,000. Then break of....for what?? Must be "tea time!!" Your ships "NEVER" fired at me....


My WitP Zen take on the above...

1. Force Z Commander was under different orders...ie Bombardment...or had orders to be at a different hex at the end of the day or the beginning of the following..."Nice to meet you chaps, but I've got to be on my way."

2. Force Z was concerned about possible carriers and so didn't want to stay in the area.

3. Jap TF was spread out and Z could only engage so many ships.

The list goes on...


Edit : Please start flaming now.


< Message edited by treespider -- 4/14/2006 9:51:00 PM >

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 31
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/15/2006 6:32:24 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Of course, it is highly doubtful that Force Z would have "bombardment" orders, as the Malayan bases are generally in British hands at the the time...

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 32
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/16/2006 2:49:38 AM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

We need a time scale where aircraft are in the air longer then a single turn with TF and LCU moving at the same time.


No we don't. All we need is something similar to what I have read occurs with submarines, which seem to make multiple checks per turn to see if there is anything for them to attack.

This issue can be handled quite easily by dividing each "turn" into multiple phases.

E.g if each 12-hour half-turn is divided into 6 phases the computer can check each TF's speed every 2 hours and see if it would move into a new hex. As it does this all other TFs are also checked and move. Sure it isn't "simultaneous resolution a la Combat Mission" but continuing to execute a full day's orders as a turn whilst dividing that day into more phases ( with movement of TFs and planes occuring in each phase under control of the AI as illustrated above) strikes a good balance between needing no increase in player input whilst allowing for more accurate combat results.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 33
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/16/2006 3:16:32 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		Just split the daytime into am and pm turns with naval movement and surface combat included in each phase rather than just after the pm air phase. That would be enough IMHO.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 34
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/16/2006 4:33:43 AM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		Something I spotted that might be relevant to you on this thread.

Here's a thread from WesWorld that shows how a surface combat simulator might work through Microsoft Excel.

http://www.wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=1856&boardid=2&sid=a473d73c0a46a22f3246edc532cf7447

_____________________________


(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 35
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/16/2006 2:17:49 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I go with the realism camp as Gary noted, but he still has a point. The problem is that right now those intercepts only take place if TF's end the phase in the same hex. Even if they passed each other on opposite courses, there's only an intercept if the end in the same hex.

Perhaps there could be a check to see if TF's intercept during transit rather than just at phase end.


In one of the UV mods, it was said this had been changed - that there was a chance of interception along the route of movement.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 36
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/16/2006 3:56:50 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

I go with the realism camp as Gary noted, but he still has a point. The problem is that right now those intercepts Perhaps there could be a check to see if TF's intercept during transit rather than just at phase end.


In one of the UV mods, it was said this had been changed - that there was a chance of interception along the route of movement.


This never was in UV regarding surface ships... we all hoped for something like that but it nevre happened...

What did happen was that in one of the patches submarines were able to intercept in all HEXes and not the destination HEX only - this is what we currently have in UV and WitP.


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
My ADSL is acting weir today - constant ON/OFF - typos fixed.

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 4/16/2006 4:08:15 PM >

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 37
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/21/2006 9:42:00 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, USN ASW TF of 4 DD under command of Cdr TR Stockard ( CO DD Leutze) assigned to patrol hex where USN AO located in support of operations NW of Iwo Jima encounters Japanese TF composed of 10xbarge headed to Iwo Jima. Japanese TF totally destroyed. .

Day Time Surface Combat at 59,51

Japanese Ships
AG AG-102, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
AG AG-112, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
AG AG-114, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
AG AG-116, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
AG AG-117, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
AG AG-120, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
AG AG-354, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
AG AG-357, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
AG AG-361, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
AG AG-363, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
DD Kimberly
DD Knapp
DD LaVallette
DD Leutze

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 38
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/21/2006 2:42:51 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

I go with the realism camp as Gary noted, but he still has a point. The problem is that right now those intercepts only take place if TF's end the phase in the same hex. Even if they passed each other on opposite courses, there's only an intercept if the end in the same hex.

Perhaps there could be a check to see if TF's intercept during transit rather than just at phase end.


In one of the UV mods, it was said this had been changed - that there was a chance of interception along the route of movement.



Note the combat locations....
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/08/41



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 111,68

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu
CV Soryu, Shell hits 5
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 1
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi
BB Hiei, Shell hits 2
BB Kirishima
CA Tone, Shell hits 5, on fire
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 4, on fire
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akigumo
DD Kagero, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranuhi
DD Urakaze
DD Hamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Arare
DD Kasumi

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis, Shell hits 1
CL Detroit
CL St. Louis, Shell hits 3
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
DD Blue, Shell hits 1
DD Helm
DD Mugford, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
DD Henley, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Patterson
DD Jarvis, Shell hits 3, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 111,67

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu
CV Soryu
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
CA Tone, on fire
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 4, on fire
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akigumo
DD Kagero, on fire
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranuhi
DD Urakaze
DD Hamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Arare
DD Kasumi

Allied Ships
DD Monaghan
DD Aylwin, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Allen
DD Schley
DD Ward


< Message edited by treespider -- 4/21/2006 2:43:39 PM >

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 39
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/21/2006 4:13:24 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, My USN Death Star was operating off coast of Home Islands. Daylight weather over CV TF and they encountered a Japanese transport TF of 2 AK 1 PC and 1 DD. USN escorts blow the Japanese out of the water but IJN DD hits Lexington with torpedo. (38 sys 49 flt 18fire) Lexington gets damage under control near Iwo Jima (but not back in port yet)
IJN submarines in 5 weeks have hit 5xUSN CVE (sinking 2) So I am a bit worried about Lex since she is currently transiting "sub Alley" (area from Iwo Jima south down to saipan)

Over all effort directed against Japanese air power prior to commencing B-29 attacks on Home islands has destroyed 5100 Japanese planes (Japan begins scenario with 6000)

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 40
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/23/2006 9:47:51 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		The same "Z force" that ran away from the Japanese AP/AK a week earlier in daylight (see post #30), now runs into a Jap invasion TF near Davao at night with the same ships and admiral. It rained 14" & 15" shells from very early on and the Repulse only got 7 sys damage in return as max for all ships. The only difference was the installation of 1.8. Was there significant changes made in 1.8 for Surface Combat or does it still need adjustments later on??

Night Time Surface Combat at 42,62

Japanese Ships
DD Yamagumo, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
APD APD-1, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
APD APD-2, Shell hits 14, and is sunk
DD Chidori, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
DD Manazuru, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatsukari, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tomozuru
MSW W.11, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
MSW W.12, Shell hits 2
AP Hayo Maru
AP Kumakawa Maru, Shell hits 5, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales
BC Repulse, Shell hits 9
CL Danae, Shell hits 2
CL Dragon
CL Durban, Shell hits 4
DD Vampire
DD Vendetta
DD Tenedos, Shell hits 2
DD Electra
DD Express

Japanese ground losses:
618 casualties reported

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 41
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 4/25/2006 5:32:10 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		Just stopped by,

ny59 read my analysis of naval gunnery combat thread and you will see an in depth explaination of what happened in the two combats your showing.

But no, the model is not fixed, its working the way its designed. It does some types of battles perfectly well, and others very poorly, you have shown two types of battles (waships vs. merchant ships and warships vs warships) so you are seeing one result where it works well and another where it works poorly.

If you want to sink a lot of merchant ships send in one BB in a TF with nothing else, check the Fear and Loathing thread for more proof of how well this works, and my older analysis thread to see why.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 42
RE: WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion - 5/1/2006 10:29:01 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		bump

_____________________________

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES



(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 43
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