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RE: 12/7/41 continued - 3/31/2006 10:20:22 PM

Terminus

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The way I see it, it wasn't especially unrealistic. It's not unreasonable to expect that the Japanese would have intelligence about the massive reinforcement of Malaya, and rightly considered the British Eastern Fleet a far closer and more dangerous threat than the very, very distant US Pacific Fleet. I think people were just a little surprised at the scale of the devastation. The Eastern Fleet basically ceased to exist on the morning of December 7th, and here the Japanese actually GOT the carriers.

Kudos to Feurer!

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Post #: 61

RE: 12/7/41 continued - 3/31/2006 10:20:36 PM

FeurerKrieg

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From the book, Rising Sun, Falling Beam the complete biography of Isoroku Yamamoto:

It is clear that Yamamoto had his doubts about the validity of the Japanese war plan. He had often argued against war with the Allies. Although he fell in line and put all of his planning expertise to work in an attempt to win the war, there is ample evidence that he was constantly plagued with doubts. These entries from his personal journal shows the depth of his concerns.

Dec 7, 1941 - We have scored a major victory against the British fleet at Singapore today. There has been a great deal of celebration and happiness throughout the naval command headquarters. The details are irrelevant, the enemy fleet has been savaged for little loss to our own forces, of which I am thankful. I still worry for the coming years of our Empire, I feel there is much bloodshed and pain to come.

Dec 8, 1941 - I had a dream while resting last night. I was a powerful man and there were two brothers, the elder was strong and proud, the younger was weak and timid. The younger had a prize I desired, but the elder protected him. I then killed the elder, took the prize from the younger, and I awoke. Sitting here I understand the dream now, and I worry for its portents. We have hurt the old power of the British, and we will soon win easy victories in the Phillipines against the United States. The British and the US are like brothers though, and will not the younger grow stronger for not being sheltered from the world by the elder? I fear it is so. Standing on his own, I fear he will grow stronger faster than if he had been left in complacency. And with this strength will come a vengence, not for the prizes we will have taken, but rather for the pain inflicted on his respected elder brother. We have not scored the brilliant victory that the world sees now, all we have done was force a naive power to wake up, stand on its own, and exact what will be a terrifing revenge.

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Post #: 62

RE: 12/7/41 continued - 3/31/2006 10:22:34 PM

Terminus

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So I guess Yamamoto lived?

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Post #: 63

RE: 12/7/41 continued - 3/31/2006 10:28:52 PM

FeurerKrieg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Be interested in seeing how badly the Rodney got hammered...

When I get home, I'll send Alikchi an ended save so he can get the details and post whatever he feels is safe to post.

As some have mentioned, this is a playtest. granted, if no major problems are encountered, we might play it out for a long time, but since it is a playtest, I'll try to be a little less secretive than I typically would, hopefully to the benefit of the readers. Of course I could always be putting out disinformations, so be forewarned.

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Post #: 64

RE: 12/7/41 continued - 3/31/2006 10:31:54 PM

FeurerKrieg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

Hmm.. I didn't realize Feuer Krieg could read this thread

Yes, it is shared, so Jap and Allied fanboys theorize, plan and suggest all you like for both sides. Thus Alikchi and I can both have plenty of material to wade through and consider. I'm certainly not a pro at this game yet, so expect to see mistakes. I already had a couple bombardments that didn't happen because I had my TF setting on retire, and with the surprise thing, no night turn, so they retire before they bombard, or something like that.

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Post #: 65

RE: 12/7/41 continued - 3/31/2006 10:34:33 PM

FeurerKrieg

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quote:

So I guess Yamamoto lived?

Who's to say the journal was not back at HQ when he got shot down? Actually, we have to see how the game goes to find out if he lives.

< Message edited by Feurer Krieg -- 3/31/2006 10:35:28 PM >

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Post #: 66

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 3/31/2006 10:43:01 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

Ah shucks, I'm really not that good. Just long-winded. I admire Feurer's style.. that last post was excellent! And ominous.

I am looking forward to the propoganda, I have to say..

--

Leaving the SRA, here I'll detail changes to the Pacific Fleet at Pearl and the Royal New Zealand Navy at Auckland.

Allied Forces in the Far East - 12/6/41 - Part Three

The Pacific Fleet

The USN is slightly larger in Iron Storm than in reality - three battlecruisers larger, in fact. The "battlecruiser clause" in Iron Storm's Washington Treaty allows the USN to complete three of their five Lexington-class battlecruisers - Constellation, Constitution and United States. The other two, Lexington and Saratoga, are converted to CVs.

The battlecruisers are the only American capital ships speedy enough to keep up with the carriers and usually serve as escorts in carrier task forces. Constitution, for example, is almost always paired up with Lexington.

Capital ships of the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. Lexington and Constitution are preparing to make a run to Wake Island to deliver Wildcats there. Oklahoma has been sent to the West Coast for boiler repairs.

New Zealand and her Navy

The RNZN (Royal New Zealand Navy), along with the RAN and RCN, was allowed to keep one "Capital Ship" under the Washington Treaty, to serve as a flagship. New Zealand couldn't afford to buy a new ship from Britain, and so was forced to stick with the old Indefatigable-class battlecruiser HMNZS New Zealand.

HMNZS New Zealand.

The ship has actually turned out to be surprisingly handy. Although she essentially sat in mothballs through most of the 1920s, a major pre-war rebuild in Britain turned her into a powerful "light battlecruiser", and the perfect answer to Germany's "pocket battleships". She proved her worth at the Battle of the River Platte by pounding Graf Spee under the water with 12" "heavy" shells. Her task, along with light cruisers Leander and Achilles is to defend the sealanes between the US and Australia from Japanese AMCs.

----

I think that's enough for now - most of the changes to the Allies that impact the strategic situation have been listed above. You'll learn about the Japanese as I fight them.

Coming up soon - FINALLY - the actual game!

How did you get the multiple pics in your post?

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Post #: 67

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 3/31/2006 10:54:25 PM

FeurerKrieg

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When I do multiple pics, I just use the image tags and host the pics on my own webspace. I assume Alikchi does the same.

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Post #: 68

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 3/31/2006 10:59:33 PM

Terminus

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I think he uses an image account like Photobucket...

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Post #: 69

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 12:27:29 AM

Alikchi2

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Yup, I use Imageshack (www.imageshack.us) and multiple image tags.

And I agree with Feurer Krieg re: realism/unrealism. I honestly don't know enough about Singapore harbor to tell you whether or not the Nells could have made their attacks, but honestly, those ships that were going to sink were already in the process of sinking at that point - it was the huge alpha strike from the carriers that really did the Brits in! Either way, the Eastern Fleet may have lost most of her capital ships, but Singapore isn't just going to roll over in the face of this dastardly attack, I assure you

Whether striking Singapore over Pearl is a wise move in the long term, we shall see. The imperialists shall pay!

< Message edited by Alikchi -- 4/1/2006 12:29:39 AM >

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Post #: 70

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 12:52:47 AM

Terminus

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To complement my last comment: if I'd been doing the IJN driving, I'd have done the exact same thing. The RN represents (or represented

) a far greater threat to the Japanese plans for the SRA. Considering how hard he's hit Alikchi's forces, Feurer has just given himself a lot of room to maneuver. So what if he hasn't annihilated the USN? Let them come!

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Post #: 71

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 1:05:39 AM

Alikchi2

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quote:

So what if he hasn't annihilated the USN? Let them come!

Hey hey hey, I'm the good guy here! No pandering to the enemy!

In all seriousness though - agreed. It was a good move, and not "gamey" in the least. So that's that.

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Post #: 72

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 3:12:20 AM

FeurerKrieg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
So what if he hasn't annihilated the USN? Let them come!

That's the spirit!!

So I have plans that I thought through before I did my first turn of course. But I'm certainly interested in what any Jap experts out there would do with all this Japanese carrier airpower. 6 CV, 4 CVLs and I think I have a couple CVEs around as well, not to mention the CSs ships. Cruise the SRA looking for Dutch warships? A pleasure cruise to Trimcomalee? Leave all that british LBA and head for the open seas of the Pacific? Split up and do a little of all the above?

What are YOUR thoughts?

Also, think I have 2 CVs and 2 CVLs due out of the yards in the next 6 months.

< Message edited by Feurer Krieg -- 4/1/2006 3:13:53 AM >

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Post #: 73

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 7:50:26 AM

Alikchi2

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Show me how willing you are to make sacrifices in the name of Japan by running them all aground at Palau!

< Message edited by Alikchi -- 4/1/2006 8:13:44 AM >

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Post #: 74

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 9:46:00 AM

Andy Mac

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Again I dont think it was gamey its exactly the right thing to do as the RN is a huge threat it is what I would have done !!!!.

Last play test they werent neutralised and I think the IJN lost multiple carriers on day 2 or 3 ;)

I just dont think surprise should be on for turn 1 I doubt it would make a difference except for a few more pilots on both sides killled.

I can see an argument for Carrier borne planes having 'special' weapons like they did at Pearl to take advantage of the strike so I am less worried about kates dropping torps as they replicate these 'special weapons'

I think no non carrier based bombers should port attack but as both players said they werent decisive it was KB that did the damage its not an issue !!!!

This is a play test where we all snipe from the sidelines....I must admit I am looking forward to seeing the RN get its own back when all those fast BC's come into play.

Andy

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Post #: 75

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 10:13:47 AM

Alikchi2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Again I dont think it was gamey its exactly the right thing to do as the RN is a huge threat it is what I would have done !!!!.

Last play test they werent neutralised and I think the IJN lost multiple carriers on day 2 or 3 ;)

I just dont think surprise should be on for turn 1 I doubt it would make a difference except for a few more pilots on both sides killled.

I can see an argument for Carrier borne planes having 'special' weapons like they did at Pearl to take advantage of the strike so I am less worried about kates dropping torps as they replicate these 'special weapons'

I think no non carrier based bombers should port attack but as both players said they werent decisive it was KB that did the damage its not an issue !!!!

This is a play test where we all snipe from the sidelines....I must admit I am looking forward to seeing the RN get its own back when all those fast BC's come into play.

Andy

Hehe agreed! Probably a house rule for surprise should be stipulated if the Japanese attack Singers on day 1.. hmmm, will have to think about it.

I hope I can do the RN justice when reinforcements arrive! And there certainly are a lot coming, the ships lost at Singapore Naval Base will soon be avenged..

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Post #: 76

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 9:13:25 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

That's the spirit!!

So I have plans that I thought through before I did my first turn of course. But I'm certainly interested in what any Jap experts out there would do with all this Japanese carrier airpower. 6 CV, 4 CVLs and I think I have a couple CVEs around as well, not to mention the CSs ships. Cruise the SRA looking for Dutch warships? A pleasure cruise to Trimcomalee? Leave all that british LBA and head for the open seas of the Pacific? Split up and do a little of all the above?

What are YOUR thoughts?

Also, think I have 2 CVs and 2 CVLs due out of the yards in the next 6 months.

Actually, you're supposed to have 8 CV's, including the two at Camranh. If it was me, I might split up into KB #1 and 2, each with 4 CV's and 2 CVL's. Each TF would have more than enough firepower. Then I'd send one into the Indian Ocean, to gain sea control there and deal with the remaining British ships in the area. The other one would patrol in the Java/Sumatra/Borneo triangle, looking for the Dutch, as well as the remainder of the British Eastern Fleet (notably Repulse and Australia).

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Post #: 77

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 9:33:25 PM

veji1

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To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I think that The RN would have been aware of the concentration of the battleline and a significant part of the carrier force at Camranh Bay, and would therefore have drafted plans for a possible assault against Singers... I think they would have been more prepared...

I think that an effective attack against Singers would have been possible, but the RN would have been more ready at least... therefore no surprise on turn 1... And a significant amount of fighters in CAP...

Nevertheless I am looking forward for the rest of the play test...

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Post #: 78

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 9:40:34 PM

FeurerKrieg

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Yup, shows how much I can keep track of things when I'm not in front of the game. :)

So here's the full CV assets -
Current - 8 CV, 4 CVL, 2 CVE
Additions by mid-1942 - 3 CV, 2 CVL, 1 CVE

My only concern with cruising the SRA too deeply early on is that with the aircraft mods in this game no deathstar is invulnerable. My Zeros had a heck of time bringing down those Beaufighter 2 engined buggers. If I sail into the middle of several strikes, the results might not be pretty.

But hey, I'm open to suggestion!

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Post #: 79

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 9:50:12 PM

Andy Mac

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I would stay concentrated for 2 reasons.

1. You stay invulnerable and you have nothing else to fear.

2. The US could be concentrating their Carriers and sending them into the theatre or doing a speed run close to allow them to dismount SBD's.

A run at PI just close enough to dismount 2 carriers woth of SBD's plus it only takes 6 or 7 days to get USAAF Gps to Singapore and I dount you can keep it closed.

Now imagine 72 Navy SBD's, some Beauforts/ some Stringbags and lots of B17's in 7 days all escorted by AVG and as many 70 xp Spits as the RAF can muster and even with the zero bonus its enough to ruin a 4 carrier TF .

Andy

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RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 9:50:36 PM

Terminus

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An alternative could be two KB's operating together, going up against your enemies sequentially, i.e. first killing off the Dutch and remaining Brits in the SRA, and only then entering the IO.

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Post #: 81

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 9:58:48 PM

Alikchi2

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I've always been partial to splitting up the KB early war into 2 CV and 2 CVL divisions.

Each division can control roughly 4 hex "squares" around them completely - and by control, I mean force Allied shipping to avoid the area or be sunk.

You have the strength to form six divisions - meaning that you could control something like a 24-hex stretch of ocean. Saturate the sealanes that the US needs to supply Australia and almost nothing could escape...

Please don't do this to me

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Post #: 82

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 9:58:50 PM

Andy Mac

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The RAF has 6 Sqns of fighters in Malaya with only 2 covering Singapore all 4 Hurricane Sqns are forward deployed.

32 out of 96 fighters forward deployed.

I would probably reverse that and have a pair of Hurricane Sqns at Singers as well or have the FAA Sea Hurricanes dismounted and on CAP over the harbour on day 1 although 60% CAP does feel right

quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I think that The RN would have been aware of the concentration of the battleline and a significant part of the carrier force at Camranh Bay, and would therefore have drafted plans for a possible assault against Singers... I think they would have been more prepared...

I think that an effective attack against Singers would have been possible, but the RN would have been more ready at least... therefore no surprise on turn 1... And a significant amount of fighters in CAP...

Nevertheless I am looking forward for the rest of the play test...

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Post #: 83

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 10:03:26 PM

Alikchi2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

The RAF has 6 Sqns of fighters in Malaya with only 2 covering Singapore all 4 Hurricane Sqns are forward deployed.

32 out of 96 fighters forward deployed.

I would probably reverse that and have a pair of Hurricane Sqns at Singers as well or have the FAA Sea Hurricanes dismounted and on CAP over the harbour on day 1 although 60% CAP does feel right

I'll definitely modify the CAP settings for the Spits and Beaus initially I think. A house rule for surprise if Singapore is attacked is still the best solution though IMHO.

I'm going to miss all those Swordfish and Albacores that went down with Hermes, Ark Royal and Formidable

Still, I have the Beauforts.

It's also possible for me to fly in reinforcements from India (Calcutta->Mandalay->Rangoon->Port Blair->Sabang->Kuala Lumpur->Singers). I have several Hurricane and Kittyhawk Squadrons arriving over the next month or so, so I just might start bunny-hopping reinforcements in. Then again, perhaps I should let Malaya wither and focus on defending Rangoon - I bet I could stop the enemy there if I brought in 4th Indian Div.. hmm, many options.

< Message edited by Alikchi -- 4/1/2006 10:09:40 PM >

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Post #: 84

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 10:31:38 PM

FeurerKrieg

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No surprise kills the movement bonus right? Without that then it is hard to attack a port with KB on turn 1. Can't all the aircraft at Singpore be put on 90% CAP, which with the suprise reductions in CAP levels should work out to a reasonable amount of planes in the air. That and putting more of the Malayan fighters in Sing would help as well.
Leave the Pearl harbor and clark fighters as is, and then those area can still be truly surprised, but Sing will be more like an average CAP.

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Post #: 85

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 10:35:20 PM

Alikchi2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

No surprise kills the movement bonus right? Without that then it is hard to attack a port with KB on turn 1.

Erk, didn't know about that.

quote:

Can't all the aircraft at Singpore be put on 90% CAP, which with the suprise reductions in CAP levels should work out to a reasonable amount of planes in the air. That and putting more of the Malayan fighters in Sing would help as well.
Leave the Pearl harbor and clark fighters as is, and then those area can still be truly surprised, but Sing will be more like an average CAP.

You obviously have thought more about this than me.

Makes sense. I could probably move one of the Hurricane Squads from Alor Star south..

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Post #: 86

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 11:00:37 PM

Sneer

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very nice game- totally diffrent opening and probably also later game
there is probably a loading bug - some of my transport Tfs have inactive loading options
i'm tempted to start PBEM with this mod

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Post #: 87

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 11:05:13 PM

veji1

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Could you explain a bit more Sneer, since this is a play test I guess Alikichi wouldn't mind, so that you can give us your point of view...

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Post #: 88

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 11:09:42 PM

Sneer

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palau has 56th brigade ready to be sent elswhere and there are also enough APs to do so
I build transport TF consisting of AP only and have and can only load supplies - rest options are greyed out and inactive - same with Amami - looks like there are locations where loading up is impossible
it is 1st turn and 2nd turn so ops are not a point

< Message edited by Sneer -- 4/1/2006 11:10:48 PM >

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Post #: 89

RE: Allied position in the Far East - conclusion - 4/1/2006 11:20:01 PM

FeurerKrieg

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If you are talking about turn 1, I had not problems loading the 56th, and same with Amami, no problems there either. It is set to run in 1.795, are you running on that patch?

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