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RE: optional rules - 5/9/2007 11:13:10 AM   
npilgaard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
China's the only country where a US entry option has to be passed before it can receive lend-leased aircraft.

That's not exactly this. This US Entry Option has to be passed before China builds any aircraft.
*******************************
1. Chinese build aircraft - You must choose this entry option before China can build any aircraft unit.
*******************************


However, later on (13.6.4) it states that:

"China may not place US sourced aircraft in its force pools until US entry option 1 (build Chinese aircraft) has been picked."

(One of the drawbacks of such a complex ruleset as RaW, imho - at times it can be a little frustrating that one has to read multiple places in the rules for various aspects of the same issue. A few weeks ago we had a similar issue regarding ASW and CriF/CoiF - at the ASW-rule section it states that BBs no longer provide any ASW, but no more extra rules are mentioned. So we assumed that conv still got 'free' ASW from '42 onwards. However, at a later time, looking at the special rules section at the end of RaW, we found out that we had been mistaken, since it turned out that those free conv ASW are not available when playing with those optionals. )

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Nikolaj

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Post #: 331
RE: optional rules - 8/18/2007 10:06:17 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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I have just transferred the writeups that appear on the screen (using right click) during "start new game" to the Players Manual. If any one would like to see the full text, I have created a PDF. Just send me an email request: SHokanson@HawaiianTel.net.

Be warned, it decribes all 83 optional rules and runs to 60 pages. And this is just Section 5 of the documentation!.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 332
RE: optional rules - 8/19/2007 5:49:48 AM   
Mziln


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

China's the only country where a US entry option has to be passed before it can receive lend-leased aircraft.

Incidentally, I'm glad that in MWiF the lending of air units is going to go back to normal WiF:FE. In CWiF you could lend anything you wanted.


Yes, I know you will all disagree with me but…

To build Chinese aircraft the US must choose US entry option 1.

quote:

1. Chinese build aircraft - You must choose this entry option before China can build any aircraft unit.



To Lend lease you must choose US entry options 17, 27, and 30.

quote:

17. Lend lease to China - Each Allied major power can give up to 5 build points a turn to China (see 13.6.4). The US can use its convoy points to transport build points to China from the USA. This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 9.

27. Lend lease to western Allies - The US can give up to 5 build points a turn (see 13.6.4) to each of the Commonwealth and France in future turns (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 15. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

30. Lend lease to USSR - The US, CW and/or France can give or receive 1 build point each per turn to or from the USSR in future turns even if the USSR is neutral (5 each per turn while Germany and the USSR are at war and unlimited while the US is also at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 19. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.


13.6.4 Lend lease deals with Transport of build points AND the Lend lease of Foreign aircraft.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 333
RE: optional rules - 8/19/2007 6:13:18 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

China's the only country where a US entry option has to be passed before it can receive lend-leased aircraft.

Incidentally, I'm glad that in MWiF the lending of air units is going to go back to normal WiF:FE. In CWiF you could lend anything you wanted.


Yes, I know you will all disagree with me but…

To build Chinese aircraft the US must choose US entry option 1.

quote:

1. Chinese build aircraft - You must choose this entry option before China can build any aircraft unit.



To Lend lease you must choose US entry options 17, 27, and 30.

quote:

17. Lend lease to China - Each Allied major power can give up to 5 build points a turn to China (see 13.6.4). The US can use its convoy points to transport build points to China from the USA. This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 9.

27. Lend lease to western Allies - The US can give up to 5 build points a turn (see 13.6.4) to each of the Commonwealth and France in future turns (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 15. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

30. Lend lease to USSR - The US, CW and/or France can give or receive 1 build point each per turn to or from the USSR in future turns even if the USSR is neutral (5 each per turn while Germany and the USSR are at war and unlimited while the US is also at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 19. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.


13.6.4 Lend lease deals with Transport of build points AND the Lend lease of Foreign aircraft.


Hey, you're right! I disagree.

What you are indirectly pointing out is that ADG was sloppy in its use of the phrase "Lend Lease". They apply it to air units and also to build points, but they intend for the two meanings to be separate from each other. If they had called them LLA and LLB for air units and build points, the rules would have been less confusing and controversial.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 334
RE: optional rules - 8/19/2007 11:37:35 AM   
Froonp


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I'd add to what Steven wrote :

********************************
24.1.6: Foreign sourced aircraft may be added to the force pools before set-up if the source major power agrees (see 13.6.4).
13.6.4: During set up or this step, you can move a striped aircraft from the lend-lease pool to your force pool if:
********************************

Given that, it is clear that from the moment that China can build planes, China can build Foreign sourced planes.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 335
RE: optional rules - 8/19/2007 12:40:10 PM   
npilgaard

 

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As I read the rules:

I fully agree that the US LL options (except option 1) is about LL BP/resources only, and not ac (as have been noted 'Lend Lease' simply refers to tow different things)

13.6.4: "China may not place US sourced aircraft in its force pools until US entry option 1 (build Chinese aircraft) has been picked."

It is the only exception mentioned under the 'foreign aircraft' rules, indicating that as soon as option 1 has been picked, China can build ac and receive LL ac.
Since no other major powers are mentioned, that indicates that there are no restrictions on LL of ac to any of them.

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Nikolaj

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Post #: 336
RE: optional rules - 8/19/2007 8:55:00 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Someone was commenting on the oil rules being complex. Here are the MWIF writeups on the 2 optional rules primarily concerned with oil.
=============================

27.1 Oil Rules
This optional rule simulates the important role that oil played during WW II. Be warned
that adding this rule increases the complexity of the game quite a bit. The mechanics are much
easier with the program doing the record keeping (than doing them by hand when playing over
the board) but the more dramatic increase in complexity is due to the impact the oil rules have on
tactical, operational, and even strategic planning, and execution of those plans. In practical
terms, the oil rules change how units are reorganized, from disorganized to organized, with some
unit types requiring oil resources.

Disorganized units that are not oil dependent are reorganized to organized
during the final reorganization step. Those that are oil dependent have additional restrictions
placed upon whether they can be reorganized at that time. Specifically, during the final
reorganization step oil resources must be spent to reorganize oil dependent units.

All naval and air units are oil dependent and it costs 0.2 or 0.1 oil points to reorganize
each unit, depending on unit type and which optional rules are in effect. Land based units are
only oil dependent if they are motorized, mechanized, or armor. In general, corps/army sized
units cost 0.2 oil points to reorganize and divisions cost 0.1. Notable exceptions are HQ units
with HQ-I costing 0.4 and HQ-A costing 0.6 oil points. If you have a question about any specific
unit, the oil point cost to reorganize it is part of the general information displayed for each unit,
along with the build points needed for building it and the time it takes for the unit to be built.

For a unit to use oil for reorganizing, the oil must belong to the unit's controlling major
power. Even oil controlled by co-operating major powers can't be used. However, Communist
and Nationalist Chinese can use each other's oil. Chinese controlled oil resources may reorganize
disorganized US units in China if they can trace a supply path (of unlimited length) back to
Stilwell. You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path
from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via
overseas) except that it can be of any length.

The total oil needed for all the units you choose to reorganize, rounded to the nearest
whole number, is the minimum amount of oil resources (whether from the current turn or saved)
that you must spend. This means that you can reorganize 2 units that cost 0.2 oil points each for
free (because 0.4 rounds to zero). However, if units costing a total of 0.5 or more oil points to
reorganize trace a path to the same oil resource, you must spend that resource. This may mean
that you will have to spend more oil resources than the minimum amount.

For example, assume you have only 2 oil resources and 6 oil dependent units to
reorganize (at 0.2 oil points per unit). You will have to spend at least a minimum of 1 oil
resource because 6 * 0.2 = 1.2, which rounds to 1. And you will only have to spend that
minimum if 4 or 5 of the units can trace a path to the same resource. But suppose that 3 units can
only trace to 1 of the oil resources and the other 3 can only trace to the second oil resource. In
that case, you would have to spend both resources to reorganize all 6 units.

If a supply unit was expended to make an HQ a primary supply source during the turn,
then during final reorganization, that HQ may reorganize oil dependent units (even itself) as if it
were 1 oil resource.

When sending resources to another player, you must also commit how many of the
resources are oil.

27.2 Saving Oil Resources & Build Points
This optional rule lets a player save build points and oil resources (i.e., oil points). It
should probably be used whenever the optional rule for oil is being used. With this rule in effect,
a player does not have to depend on fresh oil every turn for reorganizing his troops. Instead, he
can use the old stuff from previous turns. It also lets the player save oil resources and build
points for production in later turns, essentially retaining excess production as inventory against a
future date when it might be more useful.

A player can save oil resources and build points from turn to turn. To save an oil
resource it must have neither been used in production nor for reorganizing units. The process is
fairly easy, you transport an oil resource to a city or a port that you control and simply indicate
that you are saving it. There is a limit on how much oil can be held in one hex: 4 for a city, 4 for
a port, and double if it's a major power's capital. For example, London can store 16 oil points =
(4 for the city + 4 for the port) * 2 for being a major power's capital. You can't save non-oil
resources. Neutral major powers can only save one oil per turn (in addition to any previously
saved oil).

You save build points the same way as saving oil resources with the same constraints on
number per hex. You can save both oil points and build points in the same hex (e.g., 16 of each
in London).

Once you have saved oil resources you can use them exactly like any other oil resource:
either to reorganize units or as resources for production. You can also transport saved build and
oil points like any other resource, with the additional flexibility that they may be transported to
cities and ports that are not factories. Of course, an oil resource still has to get to a factory to be
used for production.

In a later production step, you can remove saved build points from the map and add them
to your build point total. You may spend any number saved at your capital but no more than 1
saved build point may be consumed per turn from each other city, useable factory and port. For
example, you can spend 4 saved build points in Hamburg (1 for the city + 1 for the port + 2 for
the factories), and an unlimited number in Berlin each turn.

If one of your land units enters a hex containing saved enemy oil resources (or saved
enemy build points), they become your oil resources (or build points). Saved build points and
saved oil resources can also be destroyed by strategic bombardment .

When you are using the optional rule for Factory Destruction and Construction, the
strategic bombardment bonus for bombers that fly to their target uncontested (no enemy fighters)
changes. Normally the bonus is a flat +1. When the optional rules for (a) Factory Destruction
and Construction and (b) Saving Oil Resources are both in effect, the addition is 0.1 times the
number of factories, oil resources, synthetic oil plants (if that optional rule is being used), saved
oil, and saved build points in the hex. Any fraction is converted to the next whole number. For
example, 3 factories + 3 saved oil + 5 saved build points gives a +2 bonus to the strategic
bombers (1.1 rounds up to 2).


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 337
RE: optional rules - 8/19/2007 10:34:46 PM   
IrishGuards


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Yes please can you send the Optional Rules to
tjanderson@rogers.com
Thx ..
IDG

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 338
RE: optional rules - 8/22/2007 6:10:01 AM   
paulderynck


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Has anything been posted on how the MWiF mechanics for reorganizing oil-dependent units will operate?

We use the rule and like it but the interturn overhead is arduous.

Thanks.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 339
RE: optional rules - 8/22/2007 6:19:22 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Has anything been posted on how the MWiF mechanics for reorganizing oil-dependent units will operate?

We use the rule and like it but the interturn overhead is arduous.

Thanks.

See post 337 immediately above - paragraphs 5 & 6.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 340
RE: optional rules - 8/22/2007 8:10:20 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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I was just commenting and converting the Save Oil form for Theme Engine and found that the maximum # of saved oil points in a hex is set at 4 (from CWIF).

I don't think that is correct. Isn't it the same as Build points with a varying maximum amount depending on whther the hex is s Major Port, City, and/or major power Capital?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 341
RE: optional rules - 8/22/2007 10:14:05 AM   
oscar72se

 

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From RaW:
13.5.1
...
You may save only 1 oil marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power’s capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 oil (4 x 4) in London). You can’t save other resources. This is in addition to saved build points (see 13.6.8).
...

You are absolutely correct

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 342
RE: optional rules - 8/22/2007 11:15:02 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

From RaW:
13.5.1
...
You may save only 1 oil marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power’s capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 oil (4 x 4) in London). You can’t save other resources. This is in addition to saved build points (see 13.6.8).
...

You are absolutely correct

Ok. I am going to change the code to comply with the following (from the MWIF descritpion of saving oil and build points):
=========
A player can save oil resources and build points from turn to turn. To save an oil
resource it must have neither been used in production nor for reorganizing units. The process is
fairly easy, you transport an oil resource to a city or a port that you control and simply indicate
that you are saving it. There is a limit on how much oil can be held in one hex: 4 for a city, 4 for
a port, and double if it's a major power's capital. For example, London can store 16 oil points =
(4 for the city + 4 for the port) * 2 for being a major power's capital. You can't save non-oil
resources. Neutral major powers can only save one oil per turn (in addition to any previously
saved oil).
=========
I am working on converting the Save Build Points form tonight and I see the same reference to a fixed quantity of 4.

Also, I note that in the rule the location can even be a minor port.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 343
RE: optional rules - 8/22/2007 11:41:25 AM   
Froonp


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4 was the old limit before RAW7 aug 04 came out.

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Post #: 344
RE: optional rules - 8/22/2007 10:17:51 PM   
Arron69


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In CWIF i have also opserved that if you use all oil, you will not be able to save new oil. This is clearly an bug.

Andi

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Post #: 345
RE: optional rules - 8/22/2007 10:31:12 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin

In CWIF i have also opserved that if you use all oil, you will not be able to save new oil. This is clearly an bug.

Andi

I do not understand. Could you please provide more details so I can fix this?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 346
RE: optional rules - 8/22/2007 11:34:50 PM   
Arron69


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When you use saved oil to turn armoured units, ships and planes, when using oil rules, if you spend the last of your oil, you won't be able to save oil at all any more. if you save new oil it disappear. The way we worked around this with my group was to not use the last 0.5 oil, then the oilpoint was still there.

Andi.

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Post #: 347
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 12:00:09 AM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin

When you use saved oil to turn armoured units, ships and planes, when using oil rules, if you spend the last of your oil, you won't be able to save oil at all any more. if you save new oil it disappear. The way we worked around this with my group was to not use the last 0.5 oil, then the oilpoint was still there.

Andi.


Having used CWiF a lot in the past and the present I have not had any problems with saving oil. Perhaps you are using an earlier version than the latest available?

Lars

(in reply to Arron69)
Post #: 348
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 12:18:36 AM   
Froonp


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Same.
But maybe I never spent the last OIL (which is a damned bad idea anyway for any country except the USA & USSR who have heaps of oil at home).

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Post #: 349
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 2:13:10 AM   
lomyrin


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As Italy I have often seen the last oil spent without any consequences for saving oil in the future.

Lars

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Post #: 350
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 2:38:33 AM   
paulderynck


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A tricky situation often forgotten is that if you spend all your oil you don't get the "free" two fifths (plus a quarter for a free convoy re-org) of the next oil.

I expect the computer will be better at remembering the "two fifths problem" than most players are.

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Post #: 351
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 2:48:15 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Has anything been posted on how the MWiF mechanics for reorganizing oil-dependent units will operate?

We use the rule and like it but the interturn overhead is arduous.

Thanks.

No I read that. I meant the player dialogs to select what gets re-orged - especially when you are real short of Oil as can happen with Japan and you start leaving CVPs on carriers flipped and air units at sea that are still face-up even though they slide down to the one and zero boxes (that they could intercept into the next turn). You would like to know the oil impact during the return to base step so it would be great to have an accessible running total of what your total cost in oil to re-org is currently running at.

BTW you get a free 2.25 oil to re-org with, so you get a free convoy flip each turn.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 352
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 2:52:00 AM   
paulderynck


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My 352 was really in reply to Steve's 340.

To add to that - what will be the mechanics of selecting some units to re-oil and others not?

If this has been discussed already I'm willing to search for it...

Just wanted to check first if you know. Thanks!


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 353
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 3:10:56 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

My 352 was really in reply to Steve's 340.

To add to that - what will be the mechanics of selecting some units to re-oil and others not?

If this has been discussed already I'm willing to search for it...

Just wanted to check first if you know. Thanks!

I am in the process of converting this form to the Theme Engine design. Here is how the display looks as I develop it - in actual use the background will be colored in and there will be lists of units and locations filled in.

The panel on the left lists all the units with their oil requirements.
The panel on the top - center & right shows all the oil point locations.
When you click on a unit, the counter for the unit is shown in the center.
When you click on a location, the map display in the lower right shows the hex and its surroundnig hexes.

Clicking on one of the four buttons uses the associated amount of oil to reorganize the unit.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 354
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 4:35:03 AM   
paulderynck


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Looks good assuming you go down the list and highlight those that will be re-oiled and skip those not, with the running total changing appropriately.

What about a peek at the worst case consumption situation anytime during the prior portion of the turn? "Worst case" would have to assume all units at sea will return to base.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 355
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 5:02:45 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Looks good assuming you go down the list and highlight those that will be re-oiled and skip those not, with the running total changing appropriately.

What about a peek at the worst case consumption situation anytime during the prior portion of the turn? "Worst case" would have to assume all units at sea will return to base.

I haven't checked this code in detail so I am uncertain about the availability of previews of consumption.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 356
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 9:13:18 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Looks good assuming you go down the list and highlight those that will be re-oiled and skip those not, with the running total changing appropriately.

What about a peek at the worst case consumption situation anytime during the prior portion of the turn? "Worst case" would have to assume all units at sea will return to base.

I haven't checked this code in detail so I am uncertain about the availability of previews of consumption.

CWiF had it.
I don't remember if you had to enter this dialog before the right time to know it, but you knew when deciding to return to base the min & max oil you had. The min were if you return to base no ship that could stay at sea.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 357
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 1:27:43 PM   
dale1066


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just sent something re this but it got crossthreaded Doh! into the stuffing thread

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Post #: 358
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 1:52:18 PM   
Froonp


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Yes, seems to be the number on the top left.
My memories were that you had the min & max number. My memories seem wrong.

(in reply to dale1066)
Post #: 359
RE: optional rules - 8/23/2007 2:55:57 PM   
dale1066


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version 0.7.71 if thats any help offhand cant think of any where else the max might be except in the oil usage window see attached



Attachment (1)

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Post #: 360
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