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RE: optional rules - 8/13/2006 9:56:32 PM   
lomyrin


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On internment the pilot from the interred plane is added to the Minor Country's controlling Major Power's reeerves.

The Food in Flames rules above are not the latest version. In the latest version one build point is added the the CW for each of the South Africa, India, and Australia for which a valid convoy line exists.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 61
RE: optional rules - 8/14/2006 12:20:23 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

On internment the pilot from the interred plane is added to the Minor Country's controlling Major Power's reeerves.

The Food in Flames rules above are not the latest version. In the latest version one build point is added the the CW for each of the South Africa, India, and Australia for which a valid convoy line exists.

Lars

I'll clarify the Internment writeup.


For the Food in Flames, is the change in addition to the negative effects if the convoy lines do not exist? And maintaining the Canadian link has no extra positive effect?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 62
RE: optional rules - 8/14/2006 1:40:47 AM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

On internment the pilot from the interred plane is added to the Minor Country's controlling Major Power's reeerves.

The Food in Flames rules above are not the latest version. In the latest version one build point is added the the CW for each of the South Africa, India, and Australia for which a valid convoy line exists.

Lars

I'll clarify the Internment writeup.


For the Food in Flames, is the change in addition to the negative effects if the convoy lines do not exist? And maintaining the Canadian link has no extra positive effect?


No, the change in Food in Flames replaces the original rule. Instead of being pro Axis it is now pro Allies.

The latest wording of the option 29: (Food in Flames) For each of Australia, India and South Africa where one or more resources are transported to a factory in Great Britain this turn, add 1 production point to the Commonwealth total.

I did say buildpoint above, it was corrected to being a production point.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 63
RE: optional rules - 8/14/2006 2:30:23 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

On internment the pilot from the interred plane is added to the Minor Country's controlling Major Power's reeerves.

The Food in Flames rules above are not the latest version. In the latest version one build point is added the the CW for each of the South Africa, India, and Australia for which a valid convoy line exists.

Lars

I'll clarify the Internment writeup.


For the Food in Flames, is the change in addition to the negative effects if the convoy lines do not exist? And maintaining the Canadian link has no extra positive effect?


No, the change in Food in Flames replaces the original rule. Instead of being pro Axis it is now pro Allies.

The latest wording of the option 29: (Food in Flames) For each of Australia, India and South Africa where one or more resources are transported to a factory in Great Britain this turn, add 1 production point to the Commonwealth total.

I did say buildpoint above, it was corrected to being a production point.

Lars


Thanks. I'll fix it.


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 64
RE: optional rules - 8/14/2006 5:51:50 PM   
Mziln


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Build points and Production points mean the same thing and are used interchangably in WiF Final Edition.

I copyed the exact options and their references in other rules (with no changes) in the file I sent to Steve.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 65
RE: optional rules - 8/14/2006 6:10:23 PM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Build points and Production points mean the same thing and are used interchangably in WiF Final Edition.

I copyed the exact options and their references in other rules (with no changes) in the file I sent to Steve.


Production points are multiplied by the production multiple to arrive at buildpoints.

In 1939 with a multiple of .5, the CW's gain from the Food in Flames rule is a maximum of 1.5 build points.

In 1941 with a multiple of 1, the CW's gain is a maximum of 3 build points.

Lars

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 66
RE: optional rules - 8/15/2006 5:26:52 PM   
mlees


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Similarly, strategic bombing reduces production points, not build points.

So, 4 production point hits on Germany in 1942= 5 build points lost. (4 production points x 1.25 production multiple= 5 BP's)

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 67
RE: optional rules - 8/15/2006 7:07:37 PM   
Mziln


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Production points are multiplied by the production multiple to arrive at buildpoints.

In 1939 with a multiple of .5, the CW's gain from the Food in Flames rule is a maximum of 1.5 build points.

In 1941 with a multiple of 1, the CW's gain is a maximum of 3 build points.

Lars


Since production points only exist when calculating production and cannot be traded or shipped. Production points are just build points prior to applying the production multiple.

Build Points = BP

Production multiple = M (The Major powers production multiple for the current production step).

Production points = P (The total number of un-destroyed factorys that had scheduled resources reach them).

Strategic bombardment destroys the factorys (if not using 22.2 Factory destruction & construction (option 30) the factorys are unuasable for the current production step).

Production is therefore calculated as:

BP = PM.

Or

Build Points = The total number of un-destroyed factorys that had scheduled resources reach them. Multiplied by the Major powers Production multiplier for the current production step.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
22.2 Factory destruction & construction (option 30)

You can build a maximum of 1 new factory a turn for each major power. They cost 8 build points each and take 4 turns to arrive. When a new factory arrives, you must put a marker onto a city hex in your home country to refl ect its construction (only in Britain for the Commonwealth until conquered). You can never have more than 2 blue factories in a hex. New factories are always blue factories.

If a printed factory is destroyed, you don’t have to rebuild it from scratch; you can repair it. This is cheaper and faster (4 build points and 2 turns). You can only repair printed factories, not factories you constructed.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 68
RE: optional rules - 8/15/2006 7:22:59 PM   
Mziln


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Similarly, strategic bombing reduces production points, not build points.

So, 4 production point hits on Germany in 1942= 5 build points lost. (4 production points x 1.25 production multiple= 5 BP's)


2.6 Fractions

These rules frequently require a calculation that produces a fraction. When you have to do this, round to the nearest whole number, rounding halves up.

Example: Germany has 21 production points. Her production multiple is 1.25, so she has 26.25 build points. This rounds to 26 points. Next year her production multiple increases to 1.5, so she has 31.5 build points. This rounds to 32.

It depends on the total production.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 8/15/2006 7:24:58 PM >

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 69
RE: optional rules - 8/15/2006 10:49:54 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Can someone tell me what this actually means?

"You may save only 1 oil marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power's capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 oil (4 x 4) in London). "

The confusion comes from about 3 directions at once.
1 - oil marker? Is that the same as an oil point?
2 - city or port (cumulative)? 1 for the city and one for the port , I guess is what they are trying to say. A hex with both a city and port could save 2 oil points?
3 - double in a major power's capital? I would normally think this means multiply by two but the example doesn't support that interpretation.

So, a simple reading of this would be London can store 4 oil points = (1 for the city + 1 for the port) times 2 for being a major power's capital.

Now, if I am generous I could read the 3 question I have above as meaning double for a capital and double again for a major power's capital. But that only gets me as far as (1 + 1) * 2 *2 = 8. Where they get 4 * 4 = 16 is unclear.

Has someone figured this out?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 70
RE: optional rules - 8/15/2006 11:40:40 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Can someone tell me what this actually means?

"You may save only 1 oil marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power's capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 oil (4 x 4) in London). "

The confusion comes from about 3 directions at once.
1 - oil marker? Is that the same as an oil point?
2 - city or port (cumulative)? 1 for the city and one for the port , I guess is what they are trying to say. A hex with both a city and port could save 2 oil points?
3 - double in a major power's capital? I would normally think this means multiply by two but the example doesn't support that interpretation.

So, a simple reading of this would be London can store 4 oil points = (1 for the city + 1 for the port) times 2 for being a major power's capital.

Now, if I am generous I could read the 3 question I have above as meaning double for a capital and double again for a major power's capital. But that only gets me as far as (1 + 1) * 2 *2 = 8. Where they get 4 * 4 = 16 is unclear.

Has someone figured this out?


Ok, I think I understand this now. The key is the use of the rather common word marker with a special meaning. I am going to rephrase this as oil depot instead of oil marker. An oil depot can store 4 oil points. London can have 4 oil depots present: (1 for the city + 1 for the port) * 2 for the being a major power's capital. Hence the example gives 4 oil points per depot * 4 depots = 16 oil points maximum in London.

I am writing this all up under the optional rules that I'll post later today.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 71
RE: optional rules - 8/15/2006 11:54:04 PM   
lomyrin


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Your interpretation in the post # 71 above is correct.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 72
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 1:32:32 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here is a revised writeup for the Food in Flames optional rule plus two new ones for you to critique. (30 done, 51 to go).

=============================================================
[26][Food In Flames][RAW 29 s. 13.6.1]
This optional rule reflects the benefit Great Britain derived from the rest of the Commonwealth providing food for the British Isles. If supply lines to the far-flung member nations of the Commonwealth are maintained to Great Britain, then the Commonwealth’s total production is increased.

For each of (1) Australia, (2) India, and (3) South Africa where at least 1 resource is transported to a factory in Great Britain during a turn, the number of production points for the Commonwealth is increased by 1. Note that these are production (neither build nor resource) points and do not required processing by a factory. They are converted into build points the same as any other production points, by being multiplied by the production multiple.
=============================================================
[27][Factory Destruction & Construction][RAW 30 s. 22.2, 13.6.8]
This optional rule allows a player to build new factories and rebuild destroyed factories. Because factories cost a lot to build and take 4 turns to arrive, it is not always obvious if building a new one is a good thing to do. Repairing destroyed factories is cheaper and faster than building new ones. The only downside to repairing a factory, rather than building a new one, is that the repaired factory will be in the same hex in which it was destroyed at least once already.

For World in Flames building a factory is as close to a capital investment as a player can get. You give up near term build points (8 of them) with the expectation that you will get more than that back in the future. Since the factories won’t start producing until they arrive 4 turns hence, and you need for them to be operational for at least 8 turns to repay the original investment, we are talking about not seeing any return/profit on your investment until 2 years from when you build them. Even then, they are only worth something if you have unused resources sitting around continuously.

Each major power can build a maximum of 1 new factory a turn. They cost 8 build points each and take 4 turns to arrive. When a new factory does arrive, it is a blue factory and it must be placed in a city hex in the major power’s home country. For the Commonwealth the only home country in which a new factory can be placed is Britain (until Britain is conquered). There can never be more than 2 blue factories in a hex.

If a preexisting factory is destroyed, you don't have to rebuild it from scratch. Instead you can repair it. This is cheaper and faster (4 build points and 2 turns). Note that you can’t repair newly constructed factories, only ones that preexisted at the start of the war (prior to 1940). If you are playing with Engineer units, you can't repair a destroyed factory unless an engineer unit is stacked in the factory hex on the turn you pay for the repair.

All factories can be destroyed by Strategic bombardment. When there is a choice, the blue factories are destroyed before the red. A enemy player may also destroy a blue factory if one of his land units (this includes partisan units) is in supply in the factory’s hex during the victory check step. Each land unit can only destroy 1 factory a turn. Specifically, for a hex has 2 blue factories, you may only destroy both in the same turn if you have 2 land units there.
=============================================================
[28][Saving Oil Resources and Build Points][RAW 31 s. 13.5.1]
This optional rule lets a player save build points and oil resources (i.e., oil points). It should probably be used whenever the optional rule for oil is being used. With this rule in effect, a player does not have to depend on fresh oil every turn for reorganizing his troops. Instead, he can use the old stuff from previous turns. It also lets the player save resources and build points for production in later turns, essentially retaining excess production as inventory against a future date when it might be more useful.

A player can save oil resources and build points from turn to turn. To save an oil resource it must have neither been used in production nor for reorganizing units. The process is fairly easy, you transport an oil resource to a city or a port that you control and simply indicate that you are saving it. There is a limit on how much oil can be held in one hex: 4 for a city, 4 for a port, and double if it’s a major power’s capital. For example, London can store 16 oil points = (4 for the city + 4 for the port) * 2 for being a major power’s capital. You can't save non-oil resources. Neutral major powers can only save one oil per turn (in addition to their previously saved oil).

You save build points the same way as saving oil resources with the same constraints on number per hex. You can save both oil points and build points in the same hex (e.g., 16 of each in London).

Once you have saved oil resources you can use them exactly like any other oil resource: either to reorganize units or as resources for production. You can also transport saved build points and saved oil points like any other resource, with the additional flexibility that they may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories. Of course, an oil resource still has to get to a factory to be used for production.

In a later production step, you can remove saved build points from the map and add them to your build point total. You may spend any number saved at your capital but no more than 1 saved build point may be consumed per turn from each other city, useable factory and port. For example, you can spend 4 saved build points in Hamburg (1 for the city + 1 for the port + 2 for the factories), and an unlimited number in Berlin each turn).

If one of your land units enters a hex containing saved enemy oil resources (or saved enemy build points), they become your oil resources (or build points). Saved build points and saved oil resources can also be destroyed by strategic bombardment .

When you are using the optional rule for Synthetic Oil Plants, oil resources can only be saved at oil depots. Each oil depot can hold 4 oil points and the number of oil depots permitted in a hex is: 1 for a city, 1 for a port, and double if it’s a major power’s capital. This works out the same as before, with London having a maximum capacity of 16 saved oil points. The difference is that you must build the oil depot(s) at a cost of 1 build point each. When you build an oil depot, it has one oil point in it. There is no cost for placing additional oil points in an oil depot, up to their maximum value of 4 oil. Once you use the last oil point in an oil depot, the oil depot disappears and must be rebuilt if you want to store more oil there in the future.

Using the optional rule for Synthetic Oil Plants has the added change of permitting neutral major powers (like all other major powers) to save as many oil points per turn as they desire.

When you are using the optional rule for Factory Destruction and Construction, the strategic bombardment bonus for bombers that fly to their target uncontested (no enemy fighters) changes. Normally the bonus is a flat +1. When the optional rules for Factory Destruction and Construction and Saving Oil Resources are both in effect, the addition is 0.1 times the number of factories, oil resources, synthetic oil plants (if that optional rule is being used), saved oil, and saved build points in the hex. Any fraction is converted to the next whole number. For example, 3 factories + 3 saved oil + 5 saved build points gives a +2 bonus to the strategic bombers (1.1 –> 2). Also, there is now no stacking limit for saved build points or saved oil resources in any city or port.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 73
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 2:02:10 AM   
lomyrin


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The repairing of destroyed factories requiring an engineer in the hex is only if that particular portion of the engineer option is used.

As far as I am aware the use of Synth Oil plants has no impact on the oil savings rules. That is to say that the 'oil Depot' rule is an option that is not tied in with Synth Oil Plants. I have not found a tie in in the rules.

The strategic bomber bonus change is also a free standing option and when it is in use there is no limit to the oil saving in a port. Personally I do not like this new option.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 74
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 2:33:42 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
1 - The repairing of destroyed factories requiring an engineer in the hex is only if that particular portion of the engineer option is used.

2 - As far as I am aware the use of Synth Oil plants has no impact on the oil savings rules. That is to say that the 'oil Depot' rule is an option that is not tied in with Synth Oil Plants. I have not found a tie in in the rules.

3 - The strategic bomber bonus change is also a free standing option and when it is in use there is no limit to the oil saving in a port. Personally I do not like this new option.

Lars


Thanks for your quick review.

1 - Yes. I'll clarify that.

2 - The link is in section 13.5.1, about halfway down, RAW Option 31 (Saved Oil Resources) starts and continues to the end of the section. It includes the two paragraphs at the very bottom that describe the interaction with RAW Options 14 (synthetic oil plants) and 30 (factory destruction and construction).

3 - the Option 30 link described above.

There is the general statement in RAW that optional rules can be used in part or whole. But fragmenting each of them into pieces to be selected ala carte would greatly expand the number of optional rules. I did split the engineers into two options, (which I think is best), but am loathe to do any more that way.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 75
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 4:12:54 AM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
1 - The repairing of destroyed factories requiring an engineer in the hex is only if that particular portion of the engineer option is used.

2 - As far as I am aware the use of Synth Oil plants has no impact on the oil savings rules. That is to say that the 'oil Depot' rule is an option that is not tied in with Synth Oil Plants. I have not found a tie in in the rules.

3 - The strategic bomber bonus change is also a free standing option and when it is in use there is no limit to the oil saving in a port. Personally I do not like this new option.

Lars


Thanks for your quick review.

1 - Yes. I'll clarify that.

2 - The link is in section 13.5.1, about halfway down, RAW Option 31 (Saved Oil Resources) starts and continues to the end of the section. It includes the two paragraphs at the very bottom that describe the interaction with RAW Options 14 (synthetic oil plants) and 30 (factory destruction and construction).

3 - the Option 30 link described above.

There is the general statement in RAW that optional rules can be used in part or whole. But fragmenting each of them into pieces to be selected ala carte would greatly expand the number of optional rules. I did split the engineers into two options, (which I think is best), but am loathe to do any more that way.


Synth plants are in para 22.4.11 with no restrictions as to oil savings.

13.5.1 at the end has option 14 - 'oil depots' and does not mention synth plants but places restrictions on saving and using of oil.

Then option 30 at the end of 13.5.1 removes the oil savings restrictions and changes the bombing attack rules.

Seems the easiest solution is to have Synth plants yes/no as one option, and the unrestricted oil savings in ports or cities with the bombing change as one option. If this last option is not in use, the standard oil savings rule would be in force, provide the general oil rule is in effect.

Why anyone would want to use an 'oil depot' option that restricts the use of saved oil and attaches a cost to it is beyond my understanding and this one ought not to be tied to synth plants on or off or even be included at all.

Lars

Lars





(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 76
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 5:42:38 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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I agree that the oil depot stuff makes no sense. It costs 1 build point to create an oil depot and it comes with one oil point to start. Since a build point may cost 2 resource points (when the production multiple is 0.5) or 1/2 a resource (when the production multiple is 2), at times you use 2 resources to create a depot and at other times you use 1/2 a resource. In both cases they may or may not be oil resources. Reading this as a rules lawyer, it appears you could use one regular resource to produce 1 production point to produce 2 build points (PM = 2) and then create 2 oil depots, each with 1 oil point in it!

2 oil resources for the price of one regular resource is a good deal. Given enough factories you could set up a little production scheme that would generate a lot of oil points from virtually nothing. Perhaps that was the intent? To give the players the ability to produce synthetic oil from coal (regular resource)?

----------------------

13.5.1 at the end has option 14 - 'oil depots' and does not mention synth plants but places restrictions on saving and using of oil.

Option 14 is the Synthetic Oil Plants RAW Option #. I take that label (Option 14) to be a short hand notation refering to the Synthetic oil plants option.

----------------------

One of the reasons I am going to the trouble of rewriting all these is because it requires such strenuous effort to figure them out. I want to make them as clear as crystal, even to a novice.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 77
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 6:13:48 AM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I agree that the oil depot stuff makes no sense. It costs 1 build point to create an oil depot and it comes with one oil point to start. Since a build point may cost 2 resource points (when the production multiple is 0.5) or 1/2 a resource (when the production multiple is 2), at times you use 2 resources to create a depot and at other times you use 1/2 a resource. In both cases they may or may not be oil resources. Reading this as a rules lawyer, it appears you could use one regular resource to produce 1 production point to produce 2 build points (PM = 2) and then create 2 oil depots, each with 1 oil point in it!

2 oil resources for the price of one regular resource is a good deal. Given enough factories you could set up a little production scheme that would generate a lot of oil points from virtually nothing. Perhaps that was the intent? To give the players the ability to produce synthetic oil from coal (regular resource)?

----------------------

13.5.1 at the end has option 14 - 'oil depots' and does not mention synth plants but places restrictions on saving and using of oil.

Option 14 is the Synthetic Oil Plants RAW Option #. I take that label (Option 14) to be a short hand notation refering to the Synthetic oil plants option.

----------------------

One of the reasons I am going to the trouble of rewriting all these is because it requires such strenuous effort to figure them out. I want to make them as clear as crystal, even to a novice.


Per your option description regarding Synth plants it would then seem that chosing the Synth plant option the oil depots are an unavoidable part of it. Then to avoid the depot situation one would have to also choose the modified bomber rule (option 30) which is really the 'factory destruction and repair option. That does do away with the depots to the chagrin of anyone who would like to have them. Of course one must also then choose the appropriate Engr option. And the whole situation is not applicable if one does not use the oil for reorg option.

It gets pretty convoluted. particularly for a newbie.

Lars




(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 78
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 6:20:56 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I agree that the oil depot stuff makes no sense. It costs 1 build point to create an oil depot and it comes with one oil point to start. Since a build point may cost 2 resource points (when the production multiple is 0.5) or 1/2 a resource (when the production multiple is 2), at times you use 2 resources to create a depot and at other times you use 1/2 a resource. In both cases they may or may not be oil resources. Reading this as a rules lawyer, it appears you could use one regular resource to produce 1 production point to produce 2 build points (PM = 2) and then create 2 oil depots, each with 1 oil point in it!

2 oil resources for the price of one regular resource is a good deal. Given enough factories you could set up a little production scheme that would generate a lot of oil points from virtually nothing. Perhaps that was the intent? To give the players the ability to produce synthetic oil from coal (regular resource)?

----------------------

13.5.1 at the end has option 14 - 'oil depots' and does not mention synth plants but places restrictions on saving and using of oil.

Option 14 is the Synthetic Oil Plants RAW Option #. I take that label (Option 14) to be a short hand notation refering to the Synthetic oil plants option.

----------------------

One of the reasons I am going to the trouble of rewriting all these is because it requires such strenuous effort to figure them out. I want to make them as clear as crystal, even to a novice.


Per your option description regarding Synth plants it would then seem that chosing the Synth plant option the oil depots are an unavoidable part of it. Then to avoid the depot situation one would have to also choose the modified bomber rule (option 30) which is really the 'factory destruction and repair option. That does do away with the depots to the chagrin of anyone who would like to have them. Of course one must also then choose the appropriate Engr option. And the whole situation is not applicable if one does not use the oil for reorg option.

It gets pretty convoluted. particularly for a newbie.

Lars


I agree completely. I'll try to work out something more straightforward. But it is going to require pencil and paper with little arrows connecting stuff.

I would try to stay as close to RAW as possible - however there are limits to the number of conditional if clauses I can tolerate in a single branch of a rules system.


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 79
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 5:35:51 PM   
mlees


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quote:

Per your option description regarding Synth plants it would then seem that chosing the Synth plant option the oil depots are an unavoidable part of it. Then to avoid the depot situation one would have to also choose the modified bomber rule (option 30) which is really the 'factory destruction and repair option. That does do away with the depots to the chagrin of anyone who would like to have them. Of course one must also then choose the appropriate Engr option. And the whole situation is not applicable if one does not use the oil for reorg option.


When I play CWiF, I would choose

Syth Plant = yes

factory construction/destruction = yes

Oil reorg = no

save oil points = no

The net effect is to give the player (me) the ability to expand (in a limited fashion) my industrial power, and not have to spend the time trying to figure out how much oil to save to reorg my forces.

This admitedly benefits Britain, as they do not have to deploy extra convoys to ship the extra oil points to the UK... but the AI (sic) hasn't complained yet.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 80
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 9:46:00 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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I have examined the interaction between the optional rules for saving oil and build points, factory destruction and construction, and synthetic oil plants. This was a messy area in the RAW for WIF FE. Here are my conclusions.

1 - oil depots (known as oil markers in WIF FE) add little to the game and present the opportunity for players to use rule interpretation to twist their creation into an artificial source of oil. I propose to eliminate the sentences concerning oil depots entirely. Poof, they’re gone.

2 - the capacity constraints for saving oil and build points in a hex seem reasonable and not too restrictive. I propose to keep them as is, and more specifically, to never permit them to be increased to infinity. This removes the sentence in RAW that they become infinite when the optional rule for factory destruction and construction is being used.

3 - the limit on the amount of oil points a neutral major power can save is normally 1, but it is increased to infinite when the optional rule for synthetic oil plants is in use. The reasoning behind this is hard to fathom. If it is an attempt to provide play balance, it seems excessive. For example, the number and years of synthetic oil plants available to each side is precisely the same: 6 for the Axis and 6 for the Allies. They are spread out over ante bellum (before 1939), 1939, 1940, and 1941 in perfect balance. On the other hand, the only neutral major powers are the USA, USSR, and Italy. Italy has desperate need for it resources, even when neutral, and doesn’t have extra oil to save anyway. Both the USA and USSR have a lot of oil and could readily divert some of it into long term storage if they wanted to. So this change can only be of benefit to the Allies. Storing more than 1 oil point per turn during peacetime though, appears to offer players the opportunity to take advantage of this rule - treating it as a loophole in effect. Why this loophole (in my opinion) is tied to synthetic oil plants being used escapes my understanding. Therefore, I propose to set the limit to 1 saved oil point per turn for neutral major powers - regardless of which other optional rules are in effect.

4 - strategic bombing modifiers are changed when both of the optional rules for (1) factory destruction and construction and (2) saving oil and build points are being used. I think this is reasonable and will leave it as is.

In summary I propose to eliminate some of the special rules in RAW that deal with interactions between optional rules. I do not propose changing any of the optional rules in and of themselves, only when they are used in combinations. The changes to the interactions I propose are eliminations/simplifications:
(1) no oil depots,
(2) capacity constraints for saving oil and build points are always in effect, and
(3) limits on saving oil points for neutral major powers are always 1 per turn.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 81
RE: optional rules - 8/16/2006 9:56:29 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Here is the rewrite for saving oil and build points, plus a few other new optional rule writeups for you to critique.
=============================================================
[28][Saving Oil Resources and Build Points][RAW 31 s. 13.5.1]
This optional rule lets a player save build points and oil resources (i.e., oil points). It should probably be used whenever the optional rule for oil is being used. With this rule in effect, a player does not have to depend on fresh oil every turn for reorganizing his troops. Instead, he can use the old stuff from previous turns. It also lets the player save oil resources and build points for production in later turns, essentially retaining excess production as inventory against a future date when it might be more useful.

A player can save oil resources and build points from turn to turn. To save an oil resource it must have neither been used in production nor for reorganizing units. The process is fairly easy, you transport an oil resource to a city or a port that you control and simply indicate that you are saving it. There is a limit on how much oil can be held in one hex: 4 for a city, 4 for a port, and double if it’s a major power’s capital. For example, London can store 16 oil points = (4 for the city + 4 for the port) * 2 for being a major power’s capital. You can't save non-oil resources. Neutral major powers can only save one oil per turn (in addition to their previously saved oil).

You save build points the same way as saving oil resources with the same constraints on number per hex. You can save both oil points and build points in the same hex (e.g., 16 of each in London).

Once you have saved oil resources you can use them exactly like any other oil resource: either to reorganize units or as resources for production. You can also transport saved build and oil points like any other resource, with the additional flexibility that they may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories. Of course, an oil resource still has to get to a factory to be used for production.

In a later production step, you can remove saved build points from the map and add them to your build point total. You may spend any number saved at your capital but no more than 1 saved build point may be consumed per turn from each other city, useable factory and port. For example, you can spend 4 saved build points in Hamburg (1 for the city + 1 for the port + 2 for the factories), and an unlimited number in Berlin each turn.

If one of your land units enters a hex containing saved enemy oil resources (or saved enemy build points), they become your oil resources (or build points). Saved build points and saved oil resources can also be destroyed by strategic bombardment .

When you are using the optional rule for Factory Destruction and Construction, the strategic bombardment bonus for bombers that fly to their target uncontested (no enemy fighters) changes. Normally the bonus is a flat +1. When the optional rules for Factory Destruction and Construction and Saving Oil Resources are both in effect, the addition is 0.1 times the number of factories, oil resources, synthetic oil plants (if that optional rule is being used), saved oil, and saved build points in the hex. Any fraction is converted to the next whole number. For example, 3 factories + 3 saved oil + 5 saved build points gives a +2 bonus to the strategic bombers (1.1 –> 2).
=============================================================
[31][Motorized Movement Rates][RAW 34 s. 11.11.2]
This optional rule changes the movement point cost for motorized units. It adds some more realism at the cost of some more complexity. At times this makes movement easier and at other times it makes it more expensive.

The following unit types use the motorized movement cost for land movement: (1) self propelled and motorized artillery units, (2) motorized engineers, (3) supply units, (4) HQ-A units, (5) armor units, (6) mechanized units, and (7) motorized infantry.
=============================================================
[32][Bomber ATR][RAW 35 s. 11.12]
This optional rule lets some bombers function as air transports.

Specifically, any aircraft with a white range circle (even those that are not air transports) can: (1) fly an air transport mission, (2) fly a paradrop mission (provided it does not have a No Paradrop symbol), and (3) fly an air supply mission.
=============================================================
[33][Large ATR][RAW 36 s. 11.12]
This optional rule differentiates between the cargo capacity of different air transport units. Those marked with an infantry symbol have double the capacity of regular air transports. In reality, the large air transports could carry heavier equipment.

Air transports marked with a white infantry symbol can: (1) transport a unit in the same way as any other air transport, (2) transport any 2 infantry class divisions (except Marines or Motorized), (3) 1 other infantry class corps or army (except HQ, Marines, Motorized or Partisans), (4) 1 supply unit, or (5) provide 2 reorganization points (instead of 1 that normal air transports provide).

When carrying the heavier load, a large air transport pays 2 movement points per hex when flying. Effectively, its range is cut in half.

During an air action, a large air transport requires 2 reorganization points to be reorganized. It requires 4 reorganization points in any other type of action. Note, when this optional rule is being used, the penalty (double the reorganization points required) for reorganizing air transports that take more than 3 turns to build, does not affect large air transports. Instead, the first 2 sentences of this paragraph apply.
=============================================================
[34][Railway Movement][RAW 37 s. 11.11.2]
This optional rule reduces the movement cost for land units when they move along a railway. A land unit pays 1 less movement point (with a minimum of 1 movement point) to enter a hex when it moves, or advances after combat, along a railway (but not a road). This reduction occurs after the application of any weather effects.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 82
RE: optional rules - 8/17/2006 6:14:51 AM   
lomyrin


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From: San Diego
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I agree with your intentions about the oil related options.

I did some thinking on the depot issue and think that it would be very pro axis and let the Japanese, and possibly Germans as well, not be lamed by the lack of oil resources arriving into their areas. That could change the game balance quite a bit.

I am happy to see it disappear as an issue.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 83
RE: optional rules - 8/17/2006 8:59:10 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
Here is today's serving of optional rules.
=============================================================
[29][Carpet Bombing][RAW 32 s. 11.8]
This optional rule simulates the use of heavy bombers in the role of close air support for front line troops. It is famous for being used to help the Allies break out from the Normandy bridgehead. In WIF, carpet bombing means using your strategic bombing factors to attack land and air units, with the prospect of eliminating them entirely.

Carpet bombing lets your strategic bombers attempt to destroy enemy land and aircraft units, not just make them passive as in successful ground strikes. A carpet bombing mission is like most bombing missions with CAP (combat air patrol), escorting fighters, intercepting fighters, air-to-air combat, and anti-aircraft fire. The carpet bombing phase occurs immediately following the strategic bombing phase.

To carpet bomb:
1. Your opponent flies combat air patrol to potential target hexes;
2. You fly all your selected attacking bombers and escorting fighters to the target hexes;
3. Your opponent flies intercepting fighters to the target hexes;
4. You fly intercepting fighters to the target hexes;
5. Fight any air-to-air combats;
6. Surviving bombers suffer anti-aircraft fire from AA units;
7. Surviving bombers attack the target hexes;
8. All remaining aircraft return to base and become passive.

The effect of carpet bombing is determined by adding up the strategic factors of the surviving bombers modified by terrain (halved in forest, jungle, and swamp). This total is used to determine the column on the strategic bombardment table and a die is rolled. 1 is added to the die roll if the bombers did not fight any air-to-air combat as part of the mission. For each asterisk result, 1 land or aircraft unit in the target hex is destroyed (including the pilot if that optional rule is in effect). Which unit is destroyed is chosen randomly and the number result is ignored.

You can carpet bomb with carrier air units and other air units with strategic bombing factors and also with V-weapons, atomic bombs, and missile submarines (if those optional rules are in effect).
=============================================================
[30][Tank Busters][RAW 33 s. 11.9]
This optional rule simulates the special effectiveness of some bombers against armored units. It is a nice rule that adds realism with a very little increase in complexity while playing.

Tank busters are air units have their tactical factor printed in a red circle. When a tank buster attacks a target unit that is a mechanized, armor, or HQ-A, and extra die is rolled. This is cumulative with surprise and using offensive chits during air actions. For example, during a surprise impulse (+1 die), a tank buster (+1 die) ground striking a mechanized unit with the benefit of an offensive chit (+1 die) during an air action would roll 4 dice.

The tactical factor of an aircraft flying a ground support mission is doubled if it is a tank buster and any of the enemy units in the combat is a mechanized, armor or HQ-A unit.
=============================================================
[35][Defensive Shore Bombardment][RAW 38 s. 11.16.2]
This optional rule enables naval units to provide support to land units who are defending in a coastal hex. The normal rules only permit this when attacking, for example, to support an invasion.

The defending side can also use shore bombardment in support of land combat. The same rules as normal/offensive shore bombardment are used to determine the maximum factors that can be brought to bear (i.e., only as many as the total modified combat factors of the defending units).

For example, a Soviet unit is defending in a mountain hex on the Black Sea during fine weather. It is passive and out of supply, so it has a strength of 1 combat factor, which is doubled to 2 for being in a mountain hex. The Soviet fleet in the 2 section of the Black Sea provides defensive shore bombardment worth 3, 3, and 2 points for a total of 8 factors. However, only 2 points of this can be used (because there are only 2 defending factors). It would be better for the Soviets to only use the naval unit with the 2 bombardment factors and save the others (i.e., keep them active).

Surprised naval units can't provide defensive shore bombardment nor can naval units provide defensive shore bombardment to a hex containing only surprised units. The defender must allocate shore bombardment before the attacker does. After providing shore bombardment, naval unit(s) become passive.

The land combat sequence is:
1. Declare all attacks, (the defender then announces whether any notional units are to be ignored);
2. Add Defensive shore bombardment;
3. Add offensive shore bombardment;
4. Announce defensive HQ support;
5. Announce offensive HQ support;
6. Fly and resolve ground support missions;
7. Resolve HQ support;
8. The combats are then resolved one by one (attacker choosing the order of combat resolution).
=============================================================
[36][Blitz Bonus][RAW 39 s. 11.16.1]
This optional rule magnifies some of the effects of blitzkrieg warfare. Armor does better in the open but all units do worse when attacking cities containing factories. Paratroops get an added bonus.

There are 4 changes:
∙ 1 is subtracted for attacking a 2 or 3 factory stack.
∙ 1 is added to the die roll for each two attacking armor, mechanized, and HQ-A units conducting a blitzkrieg attack against a non-city clear or desert hex in fine weather.
∙ 1 is subtracted from the die roll per defending armor, mechanized, and HQ-A in a non-city clear or desert hex in fine weather.
∙ 1 is added to the die roll for each unit that paradrops (after air to air combat and anti aircraft fire, if any).
=============================================================
[37][Chinese Attack Weakness][RAW 40 s. 11.16.5]
This optional rule simulates the reluctance of the Nationalist Chinese to expend all of their military might fighting the Japanese. They wanted to retain as much strength as possible for fighting the Communist Chinese after the Japanese had been expelled.

The combat factors of Nationalist Chinese land units that are attack are halved.
=============================================================
[38][Fractional Odds][RAW 41 s. 11.16.5]
This optional rule helps dissuade players from calculating every attack down to the last decimal point, seeking a perfect combat strength ratio for the combat results table (CRT). It does this by giving players some benefit when the ratio is between the odds columns on the CRT.

The odds are rounded to a whole number in favor of the defender, then a calculation is done to determine how many more factors the attacker would need to reach the next odds ratio. The amount of factors in excess of what he needs for the current odds ratio is prorated for reaching the next odds ratio on the CRT. Against this percentage a random number is drawn to decide which of the lower or higher odds ratio on the CRT is used for the combat. A couple of examples should clarify this. The computer handles all these calculations so they are included here just in case you are interested.

Example # 1. 12:7 rounds to 3:2. The attacker has an extra 1.5 factors, since he only needs 10.5 factors to achieve a perfect 3:2 odds (10.5:7 = 3:2). The next odds ratio on the CRT is 2:1 and to reach that the attacker would need 14 factors, or 3.5 more than he needs for 3:2. So, the extra 1.5 factors he has are 42.9% of the way to a 2:1 (i.e. 1.5/3.5). This gives the attacker a 42.9% chance of having 2:1 odds on the CRT instead of 3:2.

Example # 2. 35:6 is 5.83:1 which rounds down to 5:1 but with an 83% chance of resolving the combat at 6:1.
=============================================================
[39][Allied Combat Friction][RAW 42 s. 11.16.5]
This optional rule simulates the difficulties the major powers had coordinating their forces when attacking. It mainly affects the Allies, since there are more major powers on the Allied side than the Axis side.

1 is subtracted from the die roll for each attacking major power providing combat factors to the attack except the first (e.g. if Commonwealth land units are attacking with French shore bombardment and US ground support, 2 is subtracted from the die-roll).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 84
RE: optional rules - 8/17/2006 9:14:32 PM   
wfzimmerman


Posts: 660
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Three quick comments:

I agree with your statement that tank busters is a "nice rule", but are you sure that you want to make any explicit value judgments like that? i think this is one of the few places where i've seen you explicitly pass "moral" judgment on a rule. ;-)

Do you want to say something about some people believing that defensive shore bombardment is unbalancing?

in the discussion of DSB, you refer to a "passive" non-arty unit defending. Is "passive" now equivalent to "flipped" throughout? Is it wise /feasible to use the terms interchangeably? Will cardboard counter players draw a blank when they see "passive" instead of "flipped"?

Fred

_____________________________


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 85
RE: optional rules - 8/17/2006 9:28:59 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
Three quick comments:

I agree with your statement that tank busters is a "nice rule", but are you sure that you want to make any explicit value judgments like that? i think this is one of the few places where i've seen you explicitly pass "moral" judgment on a rule. ;-)

Do you want to say something about some people believing that defensive shore bombardment is unbalancing?

in the discussion of DSB, you refer to a "passive" non-arty unit defending. Is "passive" now equivalent to "flipped" throughout? Is it wise /feasible to use the terms interchangeably? Will cardboard counter players draw a blank when they see "passive" instead of "flipped"?

Fred


Yeah, I very rarely let my personal preferences shine through in the text. On occasion I throw them in for flavoring. It is not beneath me to add humor now and then too, though I am even more careful about doing that - jokes just don't seem funny after you have read them a couple dozen of times while going over the rules.

I am trying to avoid the play balance discussion about the various optional rules. I know I haven't been 100% true to that intent - I said something somewhere recently, but I can't recall where. Again I'll throw it in if I think it is important enough and I am pretty sure it is non-controversial. When you see something that sticks out inappropriately, please let me know.

My intent is to remove all uses of flipped and up-side down from MWIF documentation/RAC (Rules as Coded). In the introduction for experienced WIF players, where I'll talk about differences between WIF FE and MWIF, I'll make a big deal about this. If I couch the description in terms of a "rules clarification", the WIffers should feel right at home. The terms are anacronisms from board game play and are confusing for a person who has never played any board war game.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 86
RE: optional rules - 8/17/2006 10:26:23 PM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
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Blitz option: Advance an extra hex after combat is not mentioned or detailed.
The 2D10 tables change the modifiers in Blitz.
Minus for attacking a 2 or 3 factory stack hex is for both 1D10 and 2D10 but not because of Blitz. Suich hexes would be City hexes anyway with the defender's choice of tables.

Fractional odds with the 2D10 tables is somewhat different.

Lars


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 87
RE: optional rules - 8/17/2006 10:58:37 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
Blitz option: Advance an extra hex after combat is not mentioned or detailed.
The 2D10 tables change the modifiers in Blitz.
Minus for attacking a 2 or 3 factory stack hex is for both 1D10 and 2D10 but not because of Blitz. Suich hexes would be City hexes anyway with the defender's choice of tables.

Fractional odds with the 2D10 tables is somewhat different.

Lars


The optional rule for "Blitz Bonus" is from RAW Option #39 and is separate from using Blitzkrieg versus Assault in land combat. RAW Option #43 for the 2D10 confuses this because that table contains the word Blitz as one of the column headings. They are different things. The Blitz Bonus modifications affect the die rolls and can be applied as described above when using either table (since there is no mention of treating the 1D10 and 2D10 CRTs differently). The references to RAW Option #39 are in 11.16.1 and 11.16.4.

I'll add something to this effect to the writeup so it is clear.

Personally, I think the Blitz Bonus option should not be used in combination with the 2D10 option. It seems to be more of a half way measure between 1D10 and 2D10.

------
I'll add a note that the changes for fractional odds are for the 1D10 CRT and reference players to the 2D10 writeup for how the 2 optional rules interact.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 88
RE: optional rules - 8/18/2006 12:44:04 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
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In sequence of things being included in RAW, the 2D10 tables option predated the 1D10 option 39 blitz bonus. I think the 1D10 bonus was included in the rules after the success of the 2D10 tables had been noticed. The standard RAW option 39 Blitz bonus is not applicable when using the 2D10 since the 2D10 tables has it's own list of bonuses and penalties.

The 2D10 Blitz Bonus is in my opinion a very important part of the 2D10 tables. I also believe that most, perhaps as many as 90% of the experienced players use the 2D10 tables with fractional odds and all bonuses and penalties available in that table.

As an aside, I have a table form detailing the odds of any result using the 2D10 tables. I can email it to you if so desired. I developed the form, it is not owned by anyone. It may have been posted in the Wiflist as well.

Lars





(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 89
RE: optional rules - 8/18/2006 1:22:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
In sequence of things being included in RAW, the 2D10 tables option predated the 1D10 option 39 blitz bonus. I think the 1D10 bonus was included in the rules after the success of the 2D10 tables had been noticed. The standard RAW option 39 Blitz bonus is not applicable when using the 2D10 since the 2D10 tables has it's own list of bonuses and penalties.
The 2D10 Blitz Bonus is in my opinion a very important part of the 2D10 tables. I also believe that most, perhaps as many as 90% of the experienced players use the 2D10 tables with fractional odds and all bonuses and penalties available in that table.

As an aside, I have a table form detailing the odds of any result using the 2D10 tables. I can email it to you if so desired. I developed the form, it is not owned by anyone. It may have been posted in the Wiflist as well.

Lars


Ok, I'll make thos two optional rules mutually exclusive. There is code already in place for mutually exclusive optional rules, and for those that have prerequisites too.

Yes, please. I have some of my own anaylses (of course) but would like to see your summary of the 2D10 CRT too.



_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 90
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