Slitherine

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The first three optional rules fall into a category which I mentally refer to as "why would anyone object to this?" There are a substantial number of rules that seem to add realism while adding only low or medium amounts of additional complexity. Should they be flagged in some way, maybe in the intro to options?

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

He
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[71][Cruisers In Flames][RAW 75 s. 22.4.6]
This optional rule adds a lot more cruiser *counters* to the game, all of which represent light cruisers and their associated escort ships. The major effect of adding the light cruiser counters is that they and their provide ASW defense against submarines. Without them, carriers and battleships are assumed to have intrinsic light cruisers attached to them which provide ASW support. With this optional rule in use, the light cruisers are explicitly added to the counter mixed and the ASW defense of carriers and battleships by themselves is zero. When playing with the Light Cruisers option, every CL and C*L*AA of WWII is depicted in the counter mix.

[there were no CAAs in the US nomenclature scheme -- only CLAAs. All CW CAAs were CLAAs.]

For game play purposes, the additional cruisers are treated the same as previous light cruisers. However, now each carrier and battleship has an ASW factor of 0 and, if playing with oil cruisers and light cruisers only count as a quarter of a unit during final reorganization.

Another change is that rough weather slows down the smaller ships. This is implemented during the naval movement step only, and each light cruiser, destroyer flotilla, naval transport, and convoy that moves into 1 or more sea areas in blizzard or storm has its movement allowance and range reduced by 1 for that step (note that this may prevent the unit from entering its final sea area).

[now there should be a typhoon rule.]

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[50][Twin Engined Fighters][RAW 53 s. 14.3.2]
This optional rule reduces the air-to-air combat effectiveness of twin engine fighters when in air-to-air combat with single engine fighters.

In air-to-air combat during the day, all front fighters with an orange air-to-air rating achieve one result less than normal when the front enemy fighter in the combat does not have an orange air-to-air rating. In these cases an AX result becomes a DX, a DX becomes an AA, an AA becomes a DA and so on. A DC result is unaffected and remains a DC result.

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ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

He
=============================================================
[71][Cruisers In Flames][RAW 75 s. 22.4.6]
This optional rule adds a lot more cruiser *counters* to the game, all of which represent light cruisers and their associated escort ships. The major effect of adding the light cruiser counters is that they and their provide ASW defense against submarines. Without them, carriers and battleships are assumed to have intrinsic light cruisers attached to them which provide ASW support. With this optional rule in use, the light cruisers are explicitly added to the counter mixed and the ASW defense of carriers and battleships by themselves is zero. When playing with the Light Cruisers option, every CL and C*L*AA of WWII is depicted in the counter mix.

[there were no CAAs in the US nomenclature scheme -- only CLAAs. All CW CAAs were CLAAs.]

For game play purposes, the additional cruisers are treated the same as previous light cruisers. However, now each carrier and battleship has an ASW factor of 0 and, if playing with oil cruisers and light cruisers only count as a quarter of a unit during final reorganization.

Another change is that rough weather slows down the smaller ships. This is implemented during the naval movement step only, and each light cruiser, destroyer flotilla, naval transport, and convoy that moves into 1 or more sea areas in blizzard or storm has its movement allowance and range reduced by 1 for that step (note that this may prevent the unit from entering its final sea area).

[now there should be a typhoon rule.]

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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[50][Twin Engined Fighters][RAW 53 s. 14.3.2]
This optional rule reduces the air-to-air combat effectiveness of twin engine fighters when in air-to-air combat with single engine fighters.

In air-to-air combat during the day, all front fighters with an orange air-to-air rating achieve one result less than normal when the front enemy fighter in the combat does not have an orange air-to-air rating. In these cases an AX result becomes a DX, a DX becomes an AA, an AA becomes a DA and so on. A DC result is unaffected and remains a DC result.

You may make it more clear than RAW here : The results of the Air to Air combats are, from the more devastating to the least :
AX, DX, AA, DA, -, AC, DC
So, a DA becomes a -, and a - becomes an AC.
An AC becomes a DC, which means more bouncing !!!!

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Partisans are drawn randomly from the partisan force pool. There is a maximum of 3 partisan units per country, and since they are corps sized units, the maximum number of partisan units in a hex is 2. The composition of the partisan force pool changes year to year which changes the probability of drawing weak, weaker, or very weak partisan units. The strength of the units you have drawn previously has no effect on the probability of what you will draw next. In particular, there is a limitless pool of partisans to draw from - subject to the 3 unit maximum per country. [This section of the partisan rule is quite different from WIF FE because there is no longer any restriction due to the counter mix.]

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

The first three optional rules fall into a category which I mentally refer to as "why would anyone object to this?" There are a substantial number of rules that seem to add realism while adding only low or medium amounts of additional complexity. Should they be flagged in some way, maybe in the intro to options?

As the computer will be doing all the work, adding optional rules will now be quite painless. Most of those I've read seem to add a fair bit of realism so I'll be pouring them on. This is an example of where the computer version will really shine.
Does anyone have an opinion on this? Patrice?
Cheers, Neilster

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[71][Cruisers In Flames][RAW 75 s. 22.4.6]
(...)
Another change is that rough weather slows down the smaller ships. This is implemented during the naval movement step only, and each light cruiser, destroyer flotilla, naval transport, and convoy that moves into 1 or more sea areas in blizzard or storm has its movement allowance and range reduced by 1 for that step (note that this may prevent the unit from entering its final sea area).

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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Partisans are drawn randomly from the partisan force pool. There is a maximum of 3 partisan units per country, and since they are corps sized units, the maximum number of partisan units in a hex is 2. The composition of the partisan force pool changes year to year which changes the probability of drawing weak, weaker, or very weak partisan units. The strength of the units you have drawn previously has no effect on the probability of what you will draw next. In particular, there is a limitless pool of partisans to draw from - subject to the 3 unit maximum per country. [This section of the partisan rule is quite different from WIF FE because there is no longer any restriction due to the counter mix.]

This 3 units limitation is not RAW.
Moreover, there are often situations (China, Russia, France) where there are more than 3 Partisans at the same time in the country, this limitation will screw them, especially Russia & China, where the Anti-Partisan duty is very demanding to the invader. Limiting it to 3 units nearly remove the threat.
If this limit was imposed in the game because of the unlimited Partisan Force Pool, I'd rather play with the limited force pool and the unilimited number of partisans per country.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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[71][Cruisers In Flames][RAW 75 s. 22.4.6]
(...)
Another change is that rough weather slows down the smaller ships. This is implemented during the naval movement step only, and each light cruiser, destroyer flotilla, naval transport, and convoy that moves into 1 or more sea areas in blizzard or storm has its movement allowance and range reduced by 1 for that step (note that this may prevent the unit from entering its final sea area).

This latest part should be made separate from the CLiF Option.
As for the BP to spend to create an oil barrel in the other option, I don't see what this rule does in a games like WiF FE.
Moreover, all ships being accompanied by 4-6 DD, all ships would suffer the penalty. Well, this is a bad and useless rule for me, and it is a shame if it is mandatory when you use CLs.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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[71][Cruisers In Flames][RAW 75 s. 22.4.6]
(...)
Another change is that rough weather slows down the smaller ships. This is implemented during the naval movement step only, and each light cruiser, destroyer flotilla, naval transport, and convoy that moves into 1 or more sea areas in blizzard or storm has its movement allowance and range reduced by 1 for that step (note that this may prevent the unit from entering its final sea area).

This latest part should be made separate from the CLiF Option.
Moreover, all ships being accompanied by 4-6 DD, all ships would suffer the penalty. Well, this is a bad and useless rule for me, and it is a shame if it is mandatory when you use CLs.

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ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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[71][Cruisers In Flames][RAW 75 s. 22.4.6]
(...)
Another change is that rough weather slows down the smaller ships. This is implemented during the naval movement step only, and each light cruiser, destroyer flotilla, naval transport, and convoy that moves into 1 or more sea areas in blizzard or storm has its movement allowance and range reduced by 1 for that step (note that this may prevent the unit from entering its final sea area).

This latest part should be made separate from the CLiF Option.
As for the BP to spend to create an oil barrel in the other option, I don't see what this rule does in a games like WiF FE.
Moreover, all ships being accompanied by 4-6 DD, all ships would suffer the penalty. Well, this is a bad and useless rule for me, and it is a shame if it is mandatory when you use CLs.

1) Isn't the idea that the BBs & CVs are no longer accompanied by DDs? Now all the escort functions are moved into the CLs.

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2) If the storm effects is RAW, then how can we throw it out?

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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[71][Cruisers In Flames][RAW 75 s. 22.4.6]
(...)
Another change is that rough weather slows down the smaller ships. This is implemented during the naval movement step only, and each light cruiser, destroyer flotilla, naval transport, and convoy that moves into 1 or more sea areas in blizzard or storm has its movement allowance and range reduced by 1 for that step (note that this may prevent the unit from entering its final sea area).

This latest part should be made separate from the CLiF Option.
As for the BP to spend to create an oil barrel in the other option, I don't see what this rule does in a games like WiF FE.
Moreover, all ships being accompanied by 4-6 DD, all ships would suffer the penalty. Well, this is a bad and useless rule for me, and it is a shame if it is mandatory when you use CLs.

1) Isn't the idea that the BBs & CVs are no longer accompanied by DDs? Now all the escort functions are moved into the CLs.

Without CLiF, Capital ships are supposed to be accompanied by 1 CL and some DD.
Without CLiF, Capital ships are supposed to be accompanied by 4-6 DD.
The DD are supposed to be part of the Capital Ship's Counter.

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2) If the storm effects is RAW, then how can we throw it out?

In RAW, you can choose options entirely or part of them.
For some of them, it make sence, because the 2 parts are not very much related.
Why will TRS be slower in Storms if you play with CL, and faster if you play without, is beyond me.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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[71][Cruisers In Flames][RAW 75 s. 22.4.6]
(...)
Another change is that rough weather slows down the smaller ships. This is implemented during the naval movement step only, and each light cruiser, destroyer flotilla, naval transport, and convoy that moves into 1 or more sea areas in blizzard or storm has its movement allowance and range reduced by 1 for that step (note that this may prevent the unit from entering its final sea area).

This latest part should be made separate from the CLiF Option.
Moreover, all ships being accompanied by 4-6 DD, all ships would suffer the penalty. Well, this is a bad and useless rule for me, and it is a shame if it is mandatory when you use CLs.

I think you are misunderstanding this. A task force (group of ships moving together) is only as fast as its slowest ship. The rough weather paragraph has no effect on BBs or CVs directly. It only slows down any accomplanying CLs et al. If a BB with a movement/range of 4/4 is accompanied by a CL with a movement/range of 6/5, then even in bad weather it is the BB that limits what the task force can do (the CL is effectively a 5/4 in bad weather).

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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[71][Cruisers In Flames][RAW 75 s. 22.4.6]
(...)
Another change is that rough weather slows down the smaller ships. This is implemented during the naval movement step only, and each light cruiser, destroyer flotilla, naval transport, and convoy that moves into 1 or more sea areas in blizzard or storm has its movement allowance and range reduced by 1 for that step (note that this may prevent the unit from entering its final sea area).

This latest part should be made separate from the CLiF Option.
Moreover, all ships being accompanied by 4-6 DD, all ships would suffer the penalty. Well, this is a bad and useless rule for me, and it is a shame if it is mandatory when you use CLs.

I think you are misunderstanding this. A task force (group of ships moving together) is only as fast as its slowest ship. The rough weather paragraph has no effect on BBs or CVs directly. It only slows down any accomplanying CLs et al. If a BB with a movement/range of 4/4 is accompanied by a CL with a movement/range of 6/5, then even in bad weather it is the BB that limits what the task force can do (the CL is effectively a 5/4 in bad weather).

I'm don't think that I am misunderstanding.
The US and the Japanese have Task Forces with a 6/6, 6/5 and 6/4 movement/range, so this rule changes it all in the Pacific.
If it was a realistic rule, I'd say OK for it, but it is quite a silly one. Why would TRS be slower in storms if CLs are in play ?
From a realistic point of view, the ships that suffered the most from Storms were the DDs. As there are DD everywhere, I don't feel that this rule is realistic at all.

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OK. But then why do the BBs & CVs only use .25 of an oil with CLIF? One CL can't use very much oil...
Suspect I am doing good job of simulating confused newbie here...

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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OK. But then why do the BBs & CVs only use .25 of an oil with CLIF? One CL can't use very much oil...
Suspect I am doing good job of simulating confused newbie here...

Humm... indeed

BB & CV use 0,1 of an oil, everytime, except if playing without SiF, but MWiF has SiF as mandatory.
CA use 0,1 of an oil if playing without CLiF, and CA and CL use 0,05 of an oil if playing with CLiF.

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ORIGINAL: lomyrin
I have not seen any restrictions in the number of partisans in a country in the rules, you limit them to 3.

The likelyhood of a partisan in a country that was neutral in any part of the current year is halved.

There is also the 22.4.16 Partisan HQ's as an availablt option - will you include that one separately ?

Lars

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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[29][Carpet Bombing][RAW 32 s. 11.8]
This optional rule simulates the use of heavy bombers in the role of close air support for front line troops. It is famous for being used to help the Allies break out from the Normandy bridgehead. In WIF, carpet bombing means using your strategic bombing factors to attack land and air units, with the prospect of eliminating them entirely.

I also like the definition of Carpet Bombing found at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing) :
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The phrases area bombing and carpet bombing refer to the use of large numbers of unguided gravity bombs, often with a high proportion of incendiary bombs, to attempt the complete destruction of a target region, either to destroy personnel and materiel, or as a means to demoralize the enemy (see terror bombing). The phrase probably is intended to invoke the image of bombs completely covering an area, like a carpet.

Initially, carpet bombing was effected by multiple aircraft, often returning to the target in waves. Nowadays, a large bomber or missile can be used to create the same effect on a small area (an airfield, for example) by releasing a relatively large number of smaller bombs.
*********************************************

The first paragraph could be used in your writeup, removing the link to terror bombing, and the evokation of unguided gravity bombs as 99,99999% of WWII bombs were unguided gravity bombs. I like the way it convey the idea of the deadly carpet.

Also, even if not taking it, please remove the "close air support" notion from your sentence, as carpet bombing is more than that. It is more "high density area bombing".

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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As for including recent changes to the rules - No. They are always changing. Writing code for a moving target is more trouble than benefit. Have you met this girl named Pandora?

You can't say that they are always changing.
They were always changing between 1996 and about 2000, but since then, there wasnearly no change, and RAW7 was not modified since august 2004.
Now we are 2 years more of experience in the gaming of this great game after this date, and I think that if some fiddling of the rule was happening on the ADG side, the MWiF game would be much more value added if it was in line with these.

It would be awkward to have a game sold in (say) 2007 with a 2004 set of rules, if a 2006 set of rules existed, wouldn't it ? But I an NOT saying that ADG will issue a new RAW, this I do absolutely not know.

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There are very few partisan units in the WIF FE counter mix: only 7 to start (pre-1940) and the # grows by 2 for the next 4 years to a maximum of 15. Given partisans in China and the USSR, plus other occupied territories (France, Greece, etc.) 5 per major power seems like a lot to me. When playing WIF FE over the board the upper limit is the counter mix. And remember, these are corps sized units. We aren't talking about each unit being a dozen guys with a couple sticks of dynamite and a old rifle from WW I.

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How many addons are there to WIF? How many optional rules? How many rules errata sheets? Wasn't an earlier version of RAW numbered 7m - what about 7a, 7b, 7c, ...?

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Compare this to Risk which was published in the 1960's and has had no revisions to the rules (for those of you counting, that number is zero). Or to Diplomacy. Sure WIF is a much more sophisticated war simulation but rules changes have been numerous and frequent.

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One of Chris's problems was trying to keep up with all the new stuff released while he was writing code. In this list of optional rule writeups there have been several places where forum members have said that the writeup I posted was based on an obsolete version of the rules. I can see in the CWIF code several places where the code is irrelevant because the rules no longer exist. Chris (wisely) simply commented it out in case the powers that be changed their minds and wanted to restore it someday. There are a long list of "simple little things" that could be done. I do not argue that they are bad changes. My view is that they are changes - period.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I can do much better than average strength et al for generating counters. I haven't looked at the code recently but as I recall, it simply randomly selects one of the units from the counter mix.

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What really bothers me about the WIF FE rules is taking units off the board and placing them somewhere else on the map - "Look the Greek partisan is now in China! I wonder how he learned the language so quickly!"

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1/3 the partisan number for a country as the maximum for that country sounds good to me. It would be trivial to code too.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I can do much better than average strength et al for generating counters. I haven't looked at the code recently but as I recall, it simply randomly selects one of the units from the counter mix.

This is very good !!! Better than I expected.

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What really bothers me about the WIF FE rules is taking units off the board and placing them somewhere else on the map - "Look the Greek partisan is now in China! I wonder how he learned the language so quickly!"

Yes, but maybe limiting each country to a given number is worse.
Also, remember that this (taking units off the board ) only occurs if there are not enough Partisans in the cup to be drawn.
This problem can be solved by adding the AiF & PatiF Partisans to the countermix. As you saw from the averages I posted they are not stronger, there are just more counters.

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1/3 the partisan number for a country as the maximum for that country sounds good to me. It would be trivial to code too.

Even this is not perfect, because you will then know you have reached the max number of partisans for a given country, and you may then choose to not garrison it more to prevent more partisans to come.
For example, in Greece there are 2 Partisans maximum with this rule. I often saw 4 Partisans in Greece in our games. Same for Poland, limited to 2 Partisans units, the German could simply garrison / ZoC the red factory and the 2 resources, and allow the 2 partisans appearing, it won't bother him anymore. 2 Partisans in Poland are not enough to threaten the German supply lines. In a normal game, 2 Partisans in Poland is a red alert for the German, as he must move the garrisoning units to kill the partisans, or he risk facing more, and too much Partisans in Poland sounds unhealthy for the German's supply lines.

I really think that the best is either to add the PaitF & AiF partisans units to the game (as this is done in regular WiF FE games at people who own the 3 games), or putting a maximum to the TOTAL number of partisans in game at the same time, using the number I listed for the Number of Partisans counters if there are those from AiF & PatiF added.

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ORIGINAL: Mziln

Build points and Production points mean the same thing and are used interchangably in WiF Final Edition.

I copyed the exact options and their references in other rules (with no changes) in the file I sent to Steve.

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ORIGINAL: Mziln

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ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Production points are multiplied by the production multiple to arrive at buildpoints.

In 1939 with a multiple of .5, the CW's gain from the Food in Flames rule is a maximum of 1.5 build points.

In 1941 with a multiple of 1, the CW's gain is a maximum of 3 build points.

Lars

Since production points only exist when calculating production and cannot be traded or shipped. Production points are just build points prior to applying the production multiple.

Build Points = BP

Production multiple = M (The Major powers production multiple for the current production step).

Production points = P (The total number of un-destroyed factorys that had scheduled resources reach them).

Strategic bombardment destroys the factorys (if not using 22.2 Factory destruction & construction (option 30) the factorys are unuasable for the current production step).

Production is therefore calculated as:

BP = PM.

Or

Build Points = The total number of un-destroyed factorys that had scheduled resources reach them. Multiplied by the Major powers Production multiplier for the current production step.

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22.2 Factory destruction & construction (option 30)

You can build a maximum of 1 new factory a turn for each major power. They cost 8 build points each and take 4 turns to arrive. When a new factory arrives, you must put a marker onto a city hex in your home country to refl ect its construction (only in Britain for the Commonwealth until conquered). You can never have more than 2 blue factories in a hex. New factories are always blue factories.

If a printed factory is destroyed, you don’t have to rebuild it from scratch; you can repair it. This is cheaper and faster (4 build points and 2 turns). You can only repair printed factories, not factories you constructed.

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RAW 11.7
"Locate the total on the strategic bombardment table and roll a die. The result is the number of points lost by the target hex. Add 1 to the die roll if the bombers did not fight any air-to-air combat this impulse (i.e. were not interecepted).

If the target is an oil hex, that number of oil resources is lost from the hex for the turn.

If the target is a factory hex, that number of production points will be lost from the factory owner’s production point total for the turn (see 13.6.3)."