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RE: optional rules - 8/27/2006 1:58:50 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
Re partisans only being a nuisance...they basically liberated Yugoslavia and huge areas of Belorussia and the Ukraine were partisan controlled at various times after 1942. The Germans protected their rail lines, garrisoned cities and major towns and basically ceded the countryside. Every now and again they conducted major sweeps which involved surrounding a large area and tightening the ring to force the partisans to battle. It would have been worse for them but the partisans fought among themselves for much of the time. Ditto for Yugoslavia.

I was never too keen on "passive" for flipped units. Just to throw something out there, how about "ready/spent"? It's brief.

Cheers, Neilster


I gave some more thought and have some other possibilities:

Ready/Disordered

Fresh/Used

Ready/Immobile

And one just for you: In best bib and tucker/at sixes and sevens

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 181
RE: optional rules - 8/27/2006 3:28:09 PM   
Neilster


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Australian units could be...

you beaut/buggered
ridgy-didge/a bit how's your father
as fit as a butcher's whippet/like a chocolate fireguard

(actually, the last one's probably more north of England)

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 182
RE: optional rules - 8/27/2006 7:48:09 PM   
Zorachus99


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I still prefer Organized / Disorganized.

These words can reflect the state of any unit effectively...

Ready implies units become unready but the term isn't used.
Immobile doesn't apply well to planes or ships because it's not clear what causes immobility.
Fresh/Used are decent terms, but don't intrinsically lend themselves to thought about HQ reorganization, or reorganization at the end of the turn.

Organized is easily interpreted by me as any type of unit which is ready to be used in some way.
Disorganized means the unit has participated in an action which caused this status.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 183
RE: optional rules - 8/27/2006 8:25:56 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

I still prefer Organized / Disorganized.

These words can reflect the state of any unit effectively...

Ready implies units become unready but the term isn't used.
Immobile doesn't apply well to planes or ships because it's not clear what causes immobility.
Fresh/Used are decent terms, but don't intrinsically lend themselves to thought about HQ reorganization, or reorganization at the end of the turn.

Organized is easily interpreted by me as any type of unit which is ready to be used in some way.
Disorganized means the unit has participated in an action which caused this status.

Same for me.
What I like a lot with this is that it goes nicely with the reorganization-thing that WiF is nearly all about.
So units are disorganized by combat, and to fight more, HQ / TRS / ATR reorganize them, this is a marvel.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 8/27/2006 8:27:54 PM >

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 184
RE: optional rules - 8/27/2006 9:12:56 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
I still prefer Organized / Disorganized.

These words can reflect the state of any unit effectively...

Ready implies units become unready but the term isn't used.
Immobile doesn't apply well to planes or ships because it's not clear what causes immobility.
Fresh/Used are decent terms, but don't intrinsically lend themselves to thought about HQ reorganization, or reorganization at the end of the turn.

Organized is easily interpreted by me as any type of unit which is ready to be used in some way.
Disorganized means the unit has participated in an action which caused this status.


Yes. I like to push a little harder at tmies to see if something better can be found. It doesn't mean I dislike Organized/Disorganized.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 185
RE: optional rules - 8/27/2006 10:30:11 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Another serving of optional rules. The partisan HQ one may address some of the issues Neilster raised earlier.

=============================================================
[66][Siberians][RAW 68 s. 22.4.7]
This optional rule adds the elite USSR Siberians units to the game. When using this rule, the USSR player should bring in all the Siberians during setup.

Each Siberian unit can replace a Soviet infantry unit at the start of a scenario. In scenarios that begin in 1939, the Siberian units can only replace units that start east of the Urals. In other scenarios, they can start anywhere. When setting up his units, the USSR player decides which infantry units, if any, he wishes to replace with Siberians. Any Siberian units that do not start on the map are placed in the infantry force pool.
=============================================================
[67][Naval Supply Units][RAW 69 s. 22.4.13]
This optional rule simulates the ability of major powers to enhance the capacity of minor ports, if they really want to do so. It models the Allied floating harbors created after D-Day.

Naval supply units are normal naval transport units in all respects. If you are not playing with this option, treat them as just another naval transport unit. However, when using this optional rule, you can upgrade a minor port to increase its capacity by 10 or 15 more naval units.

At the start of a naval movement step, you can announce that you are upgrading a minor port. You can do this if there is an active naval supply unit in that port. The naval supply unit becomes passive and the port is marked as upgraded. You can now stack an extra 10 or 15 naval units at that port (the unit indicates which). Upgrading or downgrading a port counts as 1 naval move. The naval supply unit no longer counts against stacking at that port and may not be chosen as a target during port strikes. If it is overrun, it must rebase in the same manner as all other naval units in the port.

At the start of a naval movement step, you can announce that you are downgrading an upgraded port. The naval supply unit then becomes active and stacking at that port is now normal. You can only downgrade a port if it would not be over stacked after downgrading.
=============================================================
[68][Guards Banner Armies][RAW 70 s. 22.4.14]
This optional rule simulates the enhanced capabilities given to some Soviet units after they performed well. Essentially they were transformed into elite units as a reward for excellent performance in combat.

There are 8 Russian armies (taken from Leaders in Flames, which otherwise is not part of MWIF product 1), which are Guards Banner Armies. These are kept as reserves, but do not arrive when other reserves do. Instead, whenever Soviet land units are in land combat against any German controlled land unit(s), the Soviets may be able to "promote" one of their units to a Guards Banner unit of the same type as that involved in the battle (e.g. armor for armor, or motorized for motorized, etc.). The promotion is based on obtaining a positive number based on the following calculations:

For each German controlled corps/army sized unit (these are doubled for HQ units):
∙ Killed, +3;
∙ Shattered, +2;
∙ Retreated +1.

For each German controlled division sized unit:
∙ Killed, +1.5;
∙ Shattered, +1;
∙ Retreated +0.5.

Using the same formulae, Soviets losses are subtracted from the total. If the result is positive (i.e. the Soviets won the battle), the Soviet player may immediately promote 1 surviving unit. The resulting positive number is now used to decide which units can be replaced. The positive result summed with the combat factors of the unit being replaced must equal or exceed the combat factors of the Guards Banner Army replacement. The active/passive status of the replaced unit determines the status of the Guards Banner Army replacement. The replaced unit is returned to the force pool and may be scrapped as if destroyed.

For example, 2 Soviet armies (a 5-6 mechanized and a 6-3 infantry) are defending the Dnieper bend. A Rumanian attack against it fails dismally rolling a 5 on a 2-1 assault (2/1). The Rumanians lose 2 armies, while the Soviets lose one. Thus, for the purposes of promotion, the Soviets get +3 (6 - 3). They decide to lose the mechanized corps, because adding 3 to the 5-6 mechanized corps only totals 8, well short of the 11 required to gain the only mechanized Guards Banner Army. But by adding 3 to the 6 factor infantry army totals 9. Unfortunately, the 9-4 Guards Banner Army is already on the map, so the Soviet player places the 6-3 back in the force pool and places the 8-4 7th Guards Banner Army on the map. Note that even if the Germans had contributed a division to the attack and taken this as a loss, the total would only have been 2 points (4.5- 3), that this would have still been enough points to replace the 6-3 with the 8-4.

When destroyed, Guards Banner Armies are placed back in the Reserve pool and are again available for other promotions. Unlike normal reserves, when the Soviet Union comes to peace with Germany, on-map Guards Banner Armies are not moved back to the Reserve pool.
=============================================================
[69][Chinese Warlords][RAW 71 s. 22.4.15]
This optional rule simulates the significant role that Chinese warlords played in the fighting in China. In rescaling the WIF FE Pacific map to the MWIF unified world map using the WIF FE European map scale, WIF players strongly recommended including this optional rule (even though it comes from Politics in Flames which is not part of MWIF product 1).

The Chinese warlord units represent forces loyal to one particular Warlord in China rather than the central Government. Each warlord unit has a city stated on the front of the counter. This is the warlord's home city. All Warlord units set up in every game on their home city and are controlled by the major power controlling the city. Warlord units whose home city is controlled by the communist player are considered Communist units. If their city is Nationalist controlled, they are Nationalist units. This is true for any major power. For example, warlord cities controlled by Japan or the USSR have their warlord units controlled by Japan and the USSR.

Warlord units are treated like any other unit for all purposes except that no Warlord unit may move nor advance after combat more than 4 hexes from its home city. They can attack from that 4th hex to a hex where they could not move to, but could not advance after combat.

If forced to retreat from combat, the attacker must attempt to retreat them in such a way that they remain within 4 hexes of their city. However, if this is not possible, the unit is destroyed instead. Destroyed warlord units return to the owner's force like any other unit and may be rebuilt as usual. When they arrive as reinforcements, warlord units arrive in their home city.

When a warlord's home city is conquered (or captured by the other Chinese faction), the warlord unit is immediately removed from the game, even before other combats are resolved (and ones that would have included their units).

Warlord units not currently in the game may be added to the force pools of the major power that controls their home city during any production step and may be built from this turn onwards.
=============================================================
[70][Partisan HQs][RAW 72 s. 22.4.16]

This optional rule enables the Soviet and Yugoslavian partisans to become stronger and better organized. WIF players strongly recommended including this optional rule even though it comes from Politics in Flames which is not part of MWIF product 1.

The Zoya K. unit is treated the same as any other Soviet HQ except that you cannot build her. Instead, this Partisan HQ may only enter the game whenever two partisans are stacked in a hex in the Soviet Union at the start of any Partisan step. During this step, the Soviet player may remove the two partisans and place the Partisan HQ in that hex instead.

Zoya K. is treated as a normal HQ-I for all purposes (e.g. she is not restricted in co-operation like other partisans, she is a secondary supply source for all Soviet units, but must still trace back to a primary supply source, etc). However Zoya K. herself is always in supply in her home country and doesn't need oil to reorganize.

When destroyed, Zoya K. is removed from the game until again substituted on the map for two partisans in the same manner as above. When shattered, the owning player may destroy her instead.

Tito is also a partisan HQ and follows the same rules as Zoya K. except he is a Yugoslav rather than Russian unit.

The partisan HQs do not count against the maximum partisan limit for the USSR or Yugoslavia.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 186
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 1:41:58 AM   
lomyrin


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There have been a number of disputes in the WiF Discussion list about the partisan HQ's. Some feel they are indeed only partisans and cannot leave their home country, others feel they are HQ's in all respects and that they are able to leave their home country.

Personally I believe they must remain inside their home country.

Lars 

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 187
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 2:13:46 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

There have been a number of disputes in the WiF Discussion list about the partisan HQ's. Some feel they are indeed only partisans and cannot leave their home country, others feel they are HQ's in all respects and that they are able to leave their home country.

Personally I believe they must remain inside their home country.

Lars 

The bottom line of the text (verbatim from the rulebook) below is that they are considered as normal HQ, so I think this belief is wrong.

****************************************************
22.4.16 Partisan HQs (PoliF option 72)
The Zoya K. is treated the same as any other Soviet HQ except that you cannot purchase her. Instead, the Partisan HQ may only enter the game whenever two partisans are stacked in a hex in the Soviet Union at the start of any Partisan step. During this step, the Soviet player may remove the two partisans and place the Partisan HQ in that hex instead.
Zoya K. is treated as a normal HQ-I for all purposes (e.g she is not restricted in co-operation like other partisans, she is a secondary supply source for all Soviet units, but must still trace back to a primary supply source, etc) except that Zoya K. herself is always in supply in her home country and doesn’t need oil to reorganise.
When destroyed, Zoya K. is removed from the game until again substituted on the map for two partisans in the same manner as above. When shattered, the owning player may destroy her instead.
Tito is also a partisan HQ and follows the same rules as Zoya K. except he is a Yugoslav rather than Russian unit.
****************************************************

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 188
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 2:41:30 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

There have been a number of disputes in the WiF Discussion list about the partisan HQ's. Some feel they are indeed only partisans and cannot leave their home country, others feel they are HQ's in all respects and that they are able to leave their home country.

Personally I believe they must remain inside their home country.

Lars 

It is the line - "always in supply in her home country" that makes me think she is permitted to leave her home country. I would also expect there to be some specific statement about this Yes or No - but there isn't. I lean towards Patrice's interpretation that she can visit foreign lands. Please note that I have no personal interest in this either way; I'm just trying to follow the WIF FE rules.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 189
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 6:08:55 AM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

There have been a number of disputes in the WiF Discussion list about the partisan HQ's. Some feel they are indeed only partisans and cannot leave their home country, others feel they are HQ's in all respects and that they are able to leave their home country.

Personally I believe they must remain inside their home country.

Lars 

It is the line - "always in supply in her home country" that makes me think she is permitted to leave her home country. I would also expect there to be some specific statement about this Yes or No - but there isn't. I lean towards Patrice's interpretation that she can visit foreign lands. Please note that I have no personal interest in this either way; I'm just trying to follow the WIF FE rules.


I do not object to the rules of the patisan HQ's, whether or not they are limited to their own countries. I did want to point out that there has been a lot of arguments about it on the WiF Discussion list.

Whatever the impementation will be, just be certain to specify what they can or cannot do.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 190
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 6:50:47 PM   
oscar72se

 

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Isn't this clearly stated in paragraph 13.1 in Raw 7 aug 04 (in the "Partisan effects"-section)?

"Partisans may move anywhere within their home country. They can never leave their home country."

A partisan HQ is still a partisan, right? Just a thought ;)

Btw, really nice work on the optional rules. Like it a lot.


(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 191
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 7:16:52 PM   
trees trees

 

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here is a fun question about Guards Banner Armies - When exactly do you promote them? Does "after the battle" mean before advancing into a second hex as a result of a Breakthrough result? This makes a difference for possibly overrunning anything in the second hex.

(in reply to oscar72se)
Post #: 192
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 7:32:28 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

here is a fun question about Guards Banner Armies - When exactly do you promote them? Does "after the battle" mean before advancing into a second hex as a result of a Breakthrough result? This makes a difference for possibly overrunning anything in the second hex.

I think that the Battle ends after the advance after combat. Common sense dictate that. How a unit would instantly gain 30% combat points before advancing after combat ?
The Combat and the Advance after combat are all part of the Battle for me.

(in reply to trees trees)
Post #: 193
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 7:34:43 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se
Isn't this clearly stated in paragraph 13.1 in Raw 7 aug 04 (in the "Partisan effects"-section)?
"Partisans may move anywhere within their home country. They can never leave their home country."
A partisan HQ is still a partisan, right? Just a thought ;)
Btw, really nice work on the optional rules. Like it a lot.

But the rule about Part-HQ overrides this.
Things are not determined by lones rules, but by all rules that applies to them.
The PART rule dictates the rules about partisans.
The HQ PART rule dicates the extra rule about those special units. It complete and overrides the previous rule.

(in reply to oscar72se)
Post #: 194
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 7:43:44 PM   
trees trees

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

here is a fun question about Guards Banner Armies - When exactly do you promote them? Does "after the battle" mean before advancing into a second hex as a result of a Breakthrough result? This makes a difference for possibly overrunning anything in the second hex.

I think that the Battle ends after the advance after combat. Common sense dictate that. How a unit would instantly gain 30% combat points before advancing after combat ?
The Combat and the Advance after combat are all part of the Battle for me.


I agree. But without clear chapter and verse language in the WiF rules, a case is sometimes made that the promotion is instantaneous.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 195
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 7:47:10 PM   
wfzimmerman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

here is a fun question about Guards Banner Armies - When exactly do you promote them? Does "after the battle" mean before advancing into a second hex as a result of a Breakthrough result? This makes a difference for possibly overrunning anything in the second hex.

I think that the Battle ends after the advance after combat. Common sense dictate that. How a unit would instantly gain 30% combat points before advancing after combat ?
The Combat and the Advance after combat are all part of the Battle for me.


Maybe we need a "gamey interpretations on" option! ;-)

_____________________________


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 196
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 7:53:15 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
here is a fun question about Guards Banner Armies - When exactly do you promote them? Does "after the battle" mean before advancing into a second hex as a result of a Breakthrough result? This makes a difference for possibly overrunning anything in the second hex.

I think that the Battle ends after the advance after combat. Common sense dictate that. How a unit would instantly gain 30% combat points before advancing after combat ?
The Combat and the Advance after combat are all part of the Battle for me.


I agree. But without clear chapter and verse language in the WiF rules, a case is sometimes made that the promotion is instantaneous.


Making the rules clearer is my purpose here. Ideally, we put all the rules lawyers out of a job - send them each a tin cup to sit on the sidewalk and beg for charity.

This is not to say that I want to rewrite RAW. My motivation is that I have to write code to implement the rules, so the rules have to be crystal clear to me. As a side benefit, I can then make them crystal clear to newbies in the documentation - Rules as Coded (RAC).

Therefore, what we decide for each rule is less important to me than that we decide. We make the decision and I make the program work that way.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to trees trees)
Post #: 197
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 8:17:32 PM   
oscar72se

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se
Isn't this clearly stated in paragraph 13.1 in Raw 7 aug 04 (in the "Partisan effects"-section)?
"Partisans may move anywhere within their home country. They can never leave their home country."
A partisan HQ is still a partisan, right? Just a thought ;)
Btw, really nice work on the optional rules. Like it a lot.

But the rule about Part-HQ overrides this.
Things are not determined by lones rules, but by all rules that applies to them.
The PART rule dictates the rules about partisans.
The HQ PART rule dicates the extra rule about those special units. It complete and overrides the previous rule.

I guess you're right. But it seems a little bit weird that PART-HQs can leave while PARTs cannot.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 198
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 10:05:52 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se
Isn't this clearly stated in paragraph 13.1 in Raw 7 aug 04 (in the "Partisan effects"-section)?
"Partisans may move anywhere within their home country. They can never leave their home country."
A partisan HQ is still a partisan, right? Just a thought ;)
Btw, really nice work on the optional rules. Like it a lot.

But the rule about Part-HQ overrides this.
Things are not determined by lones rules, but by all rules that applies to them.
The PART rule dictates the rules about partisans.
The HQ PART rule dicates the extra rule about those special units. It complete and overrides the previous rule.

I guess you're right. But it seems a little bit weird that PART-HQs can leave while PARTs cannot.


Partisan HQ's make a big difference since they are capable of changing the control of a hex permanently - something a mere partisan unit cannot. That is much more significant than having them wander far from home (where staying in supply becomes a major problem).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to oscar72se)
Post #: 199
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 10:37:00 PM   
lomyrin


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Partisan HQ's permanently change control of hexes....   That is another aspect of them I had never thought of.

Is that really the intent of the rule, after all they are still partisans.

If hex control change is real for them, that makes them exteremely powerful units.

Lars




(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 200
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 11:04:30 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Partisan HQ's permanently change control of hexes....   That is another aspect of them I had never thought of.

Is that really the intent of the rule, after all they are still partisans.

If hex control change is real for them, that makes them exteremely powerful units.

Lars


That's my interpretation of them being "like other HQs". It would seem to be major goal to get 2 partisan units, combine them into a HQ and then go tramping around in the enemy's rear areas (sort of like a snail leaving a slime trail behind it).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 201
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 11:14:03 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan
I don't think there should be a counter limit on these. It is arbitrary, not like manpower constraints.
Rob

Couple of comments here:
First, Patrice, I was under the impression that the Libyan oil plant (representing oil field development that historically did not, but could have in game terms, taken place there) appeared in the Libyan swamp hex.

Secondly, there are, I imagine, game balance reasons to impose a limit on synthetic oil plants according to the WiF:FE counter mix.


This is an old post I intended to respond to but never did. placing the Italian synthetic oil plant in the coast is important for enabling it to be convoyed by sea. That wouldn't be possible if it were in the inland swamp hex. And the hex number on the counter is very precise as to where it should be placed.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 202
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 11:16:45 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
Partisan HQ's permanently change control of hexes....   That is another aspect of them I had never thought of.
Is that really the intent of the rule, after all they are still partisans.
If hex control change is real for them, that makes them exteremely powerful units.
Lars


That's my interpretation of them being "like other HQs". It would seem to be major goal to get 2 partisan units, combine them into a HQ and then go tramping around in the enemy's rear areas (sort of like a snail leaving a slime trail behind it).

Steve is correct.
But this does not make these 2 new counters extremely powerful. It makes them dangerous, and is supposed to make the opposing player warry of Partisans.
I say it is not extremely powerful, because it is made at the start of the Part phase, that is youcan't be surprised when it happens, because you have seen PART units gathering suring the previous turn. So it is up to you to counter the threat asap, and to prevent it from wandering.

I've seen it once in our games, and Zoya was too happy to join with the Russian lines and act as a regular HQ for the regular Army. I never saw Tito on the other hand.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 203
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 11:21:38 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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They dwindle down to a precious few. By my count I only have a dozen of these suckers left (69 completed).

=============================================================
[53][Carrier Planes][RAW 56 s. 14.4.1]
This optional rule provides separate carrier air units for each carrier. Instead of building carriers and having implicit air units associated with each carrier, the players build explicit carrier air units separately. This rule can be used with or without the optional rule for pilots. While the introduction of separate carrier air units adds a lot of realism, it also increases the complexity of playing WIF quite a bit too. Carrier air units are treated quite differently from normal air units. Indeed, in some circumstances they can fly missions without becoming passive afterwards and can even fly missions if they have already become passive. This is a major difference from all other air units in the game.

Carrier air units cost 3 build points each (or 1 build point each when using the Pilot optional rule) and take 4 turns to produce. A carrier air unit has the values shown on the counter, not those calculated from the carrier's air class. The carrier’s air class capabilities do not increase over time as in the standard game.

A carrier air unit does not count as a unit for stacking purposes when it is on a carrier. In other cases, it counts as a normal air unit. That a carrier air unit is on a carrier is shown by being positioned directly above the carrier in a stack or in a list. It is also indicated by the status boxes alongside both the carrier air unit and the carrier. The carrier air class determines which carrier air units it can carry. A carrier air unit can fit onto a carrier if the air unit’s class is the same size as, or less than, the carrier’s air class.

Carrier air units have the colored boxes which indicate the air unit’s class. The 7 classes are:
1. Light blue
2. Orange
3. Green
4. Royal blue
5. Red
6. Violet
7. Black

Over time most carrier air units have class upgrades. These are done at the beginning of a year and may occur once, twice, or not at all. The carrier air unit’s initial class is associated with the year the plane enters the force pool. The upgrade classes and the years they become effective are shown with the rest of the information about the unit. When an air unit has a class upgrade, its class drops to a lower number, which means the air unit can fit onto a smaller carrier.

For example, the French add an SBC-4 carrier air unit into the force pool at the start of 1939 and it is a class 3 air unit (green square). Until the start of 1941, the SBC-4 can only fly from a class 3 or bigger carrier (i.e., carriers of class 3 - 7). From the start of 1941, the SBC-4 becomes a class 2 carrier plane (orange square), so it can now fit on a class 2 carrier or bigger (e.g. the Joffre). From the start of 1943 onwards, this carrier air unit can fit on any French carrier (they don't come any smaller than class 1's). The easiest way to remember all this is that small class air units fit on large class carriers.

You can place a reinforcement carrier air unit directly onto a carrier in an eligible port city, assuming the carrier can accommodate the air unit. You may stack up to 2 carrier air units on each carrier, provided that the sum of the size of all carrier air units stacked on a single carrier is no more than that carrier’s air class. For instance, 2 air units of class 2 can fit on a class 4 carrier. Each carrier air unit may conduct missions separately from the other air unit based on the same carrier, and each carrier air unit counts separately against air mission activity limits.

Carrier air units are included in naval air combats in their sea area, without counting against a major power’s air mission activity limit. If they are based on land (instead of on a carrier), then they are treated as if they were a normal fighter or a bomber and even a naval air mission counts as an air mission against the current activity limits.

Carrier air units can never fly a naval air mission from a carrier into another sea area. However, even a passive carrier air unit can take part in a naval air combat in its own sea area, providing it is flying from an undamaged carrier in that sea area. Carrier air units that fly a naval air combat mission do not become passive when they return to base! If it returns from any other mission, it does become passive. Carrier units themselves never become passive because their air units fly missions.

A carrier air unit can fly a mission from a hex just like any other air unit. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flew as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.

You may not use a carrier air unit to start a naval combat. If you use a carrier to start a naval combat, then the carrier and all the air units it carries become passive.

The naval search number for a sea-box is increased by 1 if both of the following conditions are met:
∙ The weather in the sea area is fine, rain or snow, and
∙ The section contains a naval air unit or a carrier air unit belonging to the searching side. The carrier air unit must be on a carrier, and, if playing with the Carrier Search optional rule, subject to the carrier air unit range.

For the purposes of choosing the type of naval combat, a player is only allowed to choose a naval air combat because he has a carrier included, if and only if the carrier is carrying an air unit. The first step in each naval air combat round is to decide which of your fighters and carrier air units will be flying as bombers and which as fighters. These decisions can be changed at the start of the next round. Instead of adding the usual 0.5, carrier air units add one-tenth of their air-to-air strength as back-up fighters.

When being transported by a naval transport, carrier air units count as half of an air unit.

When a carrier air unit that flew from a carrier returns to base, it must return to a carrier it can fit on in the same sea box section it flew from. It can not return to another major power's carrier. If there is no carrier it can return to, it is destroyed, and its pilot is destroyed too. A carrier air unit that aborts from an air-to-air combat returns immediately to a carrier. All carrier air units that flew from a carrier must return to base after all results against naval units are implemented but before aborting naval units return to base.

If a carrier air unit gets shot down, the carrier is not damaged; it merely is carrying one less air unit. If a carrier air unit is on a carrier that aborts, the carrier air unit aborts with it. They both become passive.

If a carrier is damaged, carrier air units can still land on it but can no longer fly from it. When the combat ends, the damaged carrier is placed in the repair pool and its carrier air unit(s) onto the production circle to arrive in the next turn. If you are playing with the optional rule Pilots, a pilot is added to the owning major power’s available pilots total.

A carrier air unit on a carrier which is destroyed, is destroyed too. If you are playing with the optional rule Pilots, and a carrier air unit is on a carrier that is destroyed, the pilot is also lost. If you are playing with the Bottomed Ships optional rule, a carrier air unit on a bottomed carrier is still destroyed, (along with its pilot if the Pilot optional rule is being used).

During the rebase aircraft step of each turn, you can rebase an active carrier air unit up to double its range, from its carrier to a hex or vice versa (including the cost to get into or out of the sea-box section). You can also rebase a carrier air unit from a carrier to another carrier in the same sea-box section or port or from a carrier to the port hex it is in or vice versa. Each of these counts as a rebase for activities limits. Like all other rebases, the carrier air unit remains active.
Carrier air units may only perform normal (i.e., like other air units) rebase missions when not stacked on a carrier.

When a carrier ends its move in port, it becomes passive. However, its carrier air unit(s) only become passive if the carrier started the step at sea and moved into port during the action segment.

When you reorganize a carrier, its carrier air units are reorganized too, at no extra cost in reorganization points. However, if you are playing with the Oil optional rule, each carrier air unit costs 0.5 oil to reorganize.
=============================================================
[54][Carrier Planes CV Only][RAW 56 s.]
Included as part of Carrier Planes.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 204
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 11:38:58 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

Carrier air units cost 3 build points each (or 1 build point each when using the Pilot optional rule) and take 4 turns to produce. A carrier air unit has the values shown on the counter, not those calculated from the carrier's air class. The carrier’s air class capabilities do not increase over time as in the standard game.

CVP units cost 0, 1 or 2 BP if playing without pilots (it is written on the counter).
I don't know if that means that the 0 BP ones cost 2 BP if playing without pilots, and if the 2 BP ones cost 4 BP if playing without pilots (I did not check, and I always play with pilots).

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 205
RE: optional rules - 8/28/2006 11:54:29 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

A carrier air unit can fly a mission from a hex just like any other air unit. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flew as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.

(...)

Carrier air units may only perform normal (i.e., like other air units) rebase missions when not stacked on a carrier.

Both sentences contradict each other, so you should remove the first, and only leave the last.
This is a leftover in the rules from the times when Option 56 did not forbid Carrier Planes from flying missions from hexes.
Now they are only allowed to fly missions from CV.

*******************************
14.4.1 Carrier plane units (CVPiF & SiF option 56)
(...)
Carrier planes as aircraft
CVPiF option 56: Carrier planes may only ever fly rebase missions when not stacked on a CV.
*******************************

Also, you can add that :
- A TRS transports 2 CVP.
- CVP add one tenth of their Air to Air rating as backup fighters.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 206
RE: optional rules - 8/29/2006 2:10:08 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
Partisan HQ's permanently change control of hexes....   That is another aspect of them I had never thought of.
Is that really the intent of the rule, after all they are still partisans.
If hex control change is real for them, that makes them exteremely powerful units.
Lars


That's my interpretation of them being "like other HQs". It would seem to be major goal to get 2 partisan units, combine them into a HQ and then go tramping around in the enemy's rear areas (sort of like a snail leaving a slime trail behind it).

Steve is correct.
But this does not make these 2 new counters extremely powerful. It makes them dangerous, and is supposed to make the opposing player warry of Partisans.
I say it is not extremely powerful, because it is made at the start of the Part phase, that is youcan't be surprised when it happens, because you have seen PART units gathering suring the previous turn. So it is up to you to counter the threat asap, and to prevent it from wandering.

I've seen it once in our games, and Zoya was too happy to join with the Russian lines and act as a regular HQ for the regular Army. I never saw Tito on the other hand.


I will stand by the extermely powerful label for the partisan HQ. Consider a Germany that is deep into Russia with their HQ's at the front far to the east. German units are placed for garrison purposes but they are usually out of supply and cannor fight the partisan HQ. Now the Partisan HQ moves from south to north cutting off rail line after rail line and making a run of hexes German supply cannot cross threatening to put the entire German fighting forces out of supply deep into Russia. Germany must then rail an HQ back from the front to stop this partisan HQ. Just disorganizing it is not good enough since it will reorg at the end of turn. That is power.

Lars


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 207
RE: optional rules - 8/29/2006 2:22:09 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
Carrier planes range in cost from 0 to 1 to build points each when using pilots. A 0 BP cost plane can also be useful to maintain or increase gearing limits.

Stacking of 2 carrier planes that can fit on 1 carrier is a separate option in WiFFE.

Carrier planes reorganizing costs .1 oil each not .5 oil each.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 208
RE: optional rules - 8/29/2006 2:27:28 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

I will stand by the extermely powerful label for the partisan HQ. Consider a Germany that is deep into Russia with their HQ's at the front far to the east. German units are placed for garrison purposes but they are usually out of supply and cannor fight the partisan HQ. Now the Partisan HQ moves from south to north cutting off rail line after rail line and making a run of hexes German supply cannot cross threatening to put the entire German fighting forces out of supply deep into Russia. Germany must then rail an HQ back from the front to stop this partisan HQ. Just disorganizing it is not good enough since it will reorg at the end of turn. That is power.

Lars

Generaly, the Axis always have at least 1 HQ it can rail move to kill a threatening PART regrouping.
Either this is the HQ that keeps the Kriegsmarine in Supply in France, sometimes it is a reinforcing HQ that makes a stop in his movement east to kill the PART, sometimes it is a minor country HQ as the Rumanian or Yugoslavian, and sometimes it is an Italian one. There are also some supply sources around in Russia such as Moscow, the Baltic States Capitals, and the Ports of the Black Sea.
I agree this is a nuisance, but never could Zoya be able to move south to north cutting railways as you describe if the Axis take the PART problem seriously.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 209
RE: optional rules - 8/29/2006 2:29:43 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
Carrier planes reorganizing costs .1 oil each not .5 oil each.
Lars

Isn't the reorg cost 0,05 in fact ???
Also, they don't count if reoganized with their CV.
We play them this way at our table, but we may be wrong.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 210
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