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RE: Blitzkrieg in Burma...

 
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RE: Blitzkrieg in Burma... - 5/16/2006 1:26:49 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I had two Indian Bde get cut off at Georgetown and used my subs to transport the 6th Bde to the northern most port on Sumatra before it got captured. Hopefully, I can run in a single AK to take them back to India.
Like I said before, we are at the same spot in our games, and I "just" noticed that amount of supplies at Toboali (over 20k) as I was looking for a place to base my Dutch PT boats. It might be worth your effort to send a single AK there to take the supplies to either Singapore or Soerabaja (since the game mechanics often don't go after a single ship TF).


Tobali is a very nice little "present" for the Japanese player. It produces tons of supplies - supposedly to "simulate" the presence of tin mines.

While single ship TFs tend to avoid the notice of the AI, they don't any decent pbem player, so I'm not bothering to send anything to Tobali.

Thanks -

Dave


Are you not using this supply because it is a perceived exploit to use 1 ship TFs vs the AI (I don't believe this is an exploit either as I lose many ships in 1 ship TFs to air attack and those same ships run quite a risk from subs) or simply because the presence of tin (resource) on this island should not mean immediate equal supply of ammo, weapons, food, avgas etc?


< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 5/16/2006 1:27:11 AM >


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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 91
RE: Blitzkrieg in Burma... - 5/16/2006 3:44:40 AM   
ADavidB


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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

Are you not using this supply because it is a perceived exploit to use 1 ship TFs vs the AI (I don't believe this is an exploit either as I lose many ships in 1 ship TFs to air attack and those same ships run quite a risk from subs) or simply because the presence of tin (resource) on this island should not mean immediate equal supply of ammo, weapons, food, avgas etc?


I'm not bothering to try to get supply from Toboali because my opponents both control Kuching and good air bases in Malaya, and to send AKs to Toboali and have them sit there trying to load supplies is silly. Either the Japanese LBA will whack any ship there, or my opponent will send in some fast cruisers and whack the ship.

There are plenty of other places where I can pick up supply and not throw away ships.

As for whether or not Toboali ought to be providing supplies in that region, I think it it a garbage idea that is there solely to provide local supplies for a Japanese player. If it were really supposed to represent "tin" it ought to be "resources", which then have to be shipped somewhere to be "processed".

In any event, it is just another little irritation compared to the big stuff that is wrong with the Game design.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 92
The Allied House of Cards Starts to Fall... - 5/17/2006 12:45:36 AM   
ADavidB


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January 6, 1942 -

The Allied defense started to fall apart in a big way in the Far East this turn, demonstrating that it is really a house-of-cards. A big, BB-lead Japanese TF sailed into Palembang, brushed the Dutch PT aside, and bombarded the base. I had already pulled most of the planes out of Palembang, so this wasn't too costly an attack. But at the same time none of the British or Dutch air units in the region could mount any sort of attack on any of the many Japanese TFs that are sailing around at will in the region. Experience and morale is in the dumps for the Allied air units in the region and even when they do their rare attacks, they aren't successful.

Japanese paratroops landed at Banjamasin this turn, despite a number of Topsys being hit by flak. The obligatory shock attack didn't capture the base, but it wasn't repulsed very strongly either. There are a number of other Japanese efforts going on simultaneously in the region, including a TF sailing towards Tarakan and another sailing towards Timor. I can't do anything about the Tarakan attack other to try to move a sub into the path of the TF, and to move my air units out of Tarakan. In the case of the attack on Timor, I may be able to interfere with it, but there may well be a Japanese carrier back-up waiting in the wings too.

In Malaya I was burned by the Movement rules again. The Japanese captured Mersing, and my troops there surrendered instead of retreating, even though the retreat path didn't have any Japanese troops in the way - at the time. But thanks to the Movement rules, the Japanese troops got to move first during the turn, cutting off my troops.

In Burma Treespider now has at least 16 units on the ground and has finally put some air units into Rangoon. His forces also captured Mandalay. I'm sending some bombers in to hit the air fields at Mandalay this turn, just to see if I can discourage Treespider from placing air units there. It might not work, but if he wants to fight for control of the air over Mandalay he won't be able to do as much elsewhere. And elsewhere, Japanese air power was overwhelming, with multiple large attacks throughout the Far East. BTW - the Kendari air attacks were shown correctly this time in the Combat Replay.

In other news, a Japanese sub mined Darwin Harbor. I found out about it rather harmlessly as an MSW sailed in on ASW duty, found the mines, and cleaned some of them. The odd thing about ASW in base hexes in this game is that my ASW ships can't seem to find any Japanese subs in the base hexes, even if the subs sit around for several turns in a row. At one time in earlier versions of the Game, being in a base hex increased the odds of a sub being spotted and attacked - now it seems to be the reverse.

Elsewhere, Japanese troops captured Shortlands. I'm expecting troops to show up at Lunga soon, and I'm hoping to be able to do something about that. It will be hard to maintain surprise in the region, however, because there are lots of Japanese subs around. Speaking of Japanese subs, the one good piece of news that I received this turn was that I-173 sank on its way back to port.

In the land war in Malaya, in addition to what happened at Mersing, Georgetown only received an artillery bombardment again. I can't understand why Treespider isn't finishing it off. In the Philippines, Japanese troops finally closed in on Clark Field.

In China the war of manoeuvring continued, with the Japanese still one step ahead of the Chinese in most places thanks to movement route advantages. There were deliberate Japanese attacks at Ichang and Wuchow that were repelled. The situation at Wuchow is improving while at the same time the situation at Ichang is degrading. Changsha only received a Japanese artillery attack.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 93
RE: The Allied House of Cards Starts to Fall... - 5/17/2006 4:55:12 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

The odd thing about ASW in base hexes in this game is that my ASW ships can't seem to find any Japanese subs in the base hexes, even if the subs sit around for several turns in a row. At one time in earlier versions of the Game, being in a base hex increased the odds of a sub being spotted and attacked - now it seems to be the reverse.


I first noticed this (subs enjoying sitting in base hexes) when playing WPO - so my guess is the WPO changes which got back ported to WITP in version 1.7.9.5 are at work. Given the various abstractions that exist in the game, I'm not sure this is totally bad. I still think you auto-spot the sub .. but they might be harder to hit than before. On the other hand, if there is enough ASW in the hex, they don't attack much either.





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Post #: 94
RE: The Allied House of Cards Starts to Fall... - 5/17/2006 6:19:16 AM   
ADavidB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

The odd thing about ASW in base hexes in this game is that my ASW ships can't seem to find any Japanese subs in the base hexes, even if the subs sit around for several turns in a row. At one time in earlier versions of the Game, being in a base hex increased the odds of a sub being spotted and attacked - now it seems to be the reverse.


I first noticed this (subs enjoying sitting in base hexes) when playing WPO - so my guess is the WPO changes which got back ported to WITP in version 1.7.9.5 are at work. Given the various abstractions that exist in the game, I'm not sure this is totally bad. I still think you auto-spot the sub .. but they might be harder to hit than before. On the other hand, if there is enough ASW in the hex, they don't attack much either.




I didn't know that WPO changes were ported back into WitP. Was that a "good thing" or a "bad thing"?

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 95
What's Up in the Snow?... - 5/17/2006 6:20:21 AM   
ADavidB


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January 7, 1942 -

Something is going on in the blizzards of the Aleutians; S-34 was at Kiska to refuel and it was attacked ASW ships! But I got no detection out of it and no Japanese TFs showed up in the region. Just what is Treespider up to this time? Oh well, there is nothing much I can do about it whether it is just a nuisance raid or a major strike, so I'll just watch and see. Fortunately I don't have much in the region other than "real estate".

There was a fair amount of naval action this turn. Unfortunately, most of it was the doing of the Japanese, although the Allies had a little success. An Australian MSW off of Darwin attacked I-153 but missed. Now I've got that ship back to MSW duties and trying to sweep the port. I-172 got past another MSW on escort duty and put a couple of torpedoes into a tanker just off of Canton Island. Fortunately, the escorts of a passing TF hit I-172. I've got more ASW ships heading to Canton Island to try to help out.

Treespider continued PT boat-hunting in the Philippines and DEI. A Japanese CL/DD TF attacked the American PTs at Davao, sinking one. Another duplicate Japanese CL/DD TF attacked the Dutch PTs at Pontianak and sank one of them too. I'm not a big fan of the changes that were made to the PT model a few game-revisions back; PTs are almost useless now.

As expected, a cruiser TF came in to whack Tarakan. Some Dutch bombers tried to attack, but that was a waste. Later on, more Dutch bombers found an AP and an AK in Brunei without any CAP and put a bomb into each. But otherwise the skies throughout the Far East belonged to the Japanese. Manila in particular was whacked very hard.

In the ground war, Ichang and Wuchow received artillery bombardments. I am still moving forces in an attempt to prevent encirclement of my forward Chinese bases, with these two bases needing troops the worst at this time. Clark Field received a deliberate attack, and Johore Bahru received a shock attack, but both held. However, I don't expect either to last very long. And Japanese troops marched in and captured Taung Gyi against no opposition.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 96
RE: The Allied House of Cards Starts to Fall... - 5/17/2006 9:41:50 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

I didn't know that WPO changes were ported back into WitP. Was that a "good thing" or a "bad thing"?


I'd say "good thing" .. if you notice the new "sub rattled by near miss" type messages during depth charge attacks, this is part of what got back fitted ... I think the main thing that affects WITP (from WPO) is the major rewrite of the sub/asw rules. Michael Wood did all this work, so I don't know any more than any other player about it. But all it all I like it .. it brings subs back into the game as subs. The "backporting" was in the 1.7.9.5 beta released last November, so it got quite a bit of shakeout in public beta before the final 1.8 changes came out last month.

Even "Ron" thinks subs are better now, OMG

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Post #: 97
RE: The Allied House of Cards Starts to Fall... - 5/18/2006 5:29:39 AM   
ADavidB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

I didn't know that WPO changes were ported back into WitP. Was that a "good thing" or a "bad thing"?


I'd say "good thing" .. if you notice the new "sub rattled by near miss" type messages during depth charge attacks, this is part of what got back fitted ... I think the main thing that affects WITP (from WPO) is the major rewrite of the sub/asw rules. Michael Wood did all this work, so I don't know any more than any other player about it. But all it all I like it .. it brings subs back into the game as subs. The "backporting" was in the 1.7.9.5 beta released last November, so it got quite a bit of shakeout in public beta before the final 1.8 changes came out last month.

Even "Ron" thinks subs are better now, OMG


I also like the "shake, rattle and roll" attacks on subs, but if subs are now undetectible in base hexes, that is a "design enhancement" that I could do without...

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 98
RE: The Allied House of Cards Starts to Fall... - 5/18/2006 2:19:53 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

but if subs are now undetectible in base hexes,


subs are still "auto-detected" in base hexes are far as I've been able to tell.



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Post #: 99
RE: The Allied House of Cards Starts to Fall... - 5/19/2006 12:36:31 AM   
ADavidB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

but if subs are now undetectible in base hexes,


subs are still "auto-detected" in base hexes are far as I've been able to tell.




Perhaps, but if the ASW ships and planes don't spot them, it doesn't help.

Thanks -

Dave

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 100
Surprise at Timor... - 5/19/2006 12:43:47 AM   
ADavidB


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January 8, 1942 -

Some of my "planning and scheming" came together this turn as I surprised Treespider at Timor. Two turns ago my search planes spotted a Japanese transport TF to the Northeast of Timor, heading southwest. The odds were that it was heading for Lautem, so I moved the Dutch surface combat TF from Koepang to Lautem and sent the Asiatic Fleet surface combat ships from Broome to Koepang. I had the P-40Es from the Philippines covering the Timor air bases so I felt fairly confident that unescorted Japanese LBA wouldn't come and interfere with my plans.

At the same time I had my "wayward" US CV TF halfway between Broome and Java - I had been sending it towards Java in expectation of a Japanese move against Sumatra. So I turned it around and sent it at full speed towards the northeast of Timor. This was the same CV TF that hit the battleships off of Rabaul. I had sent it "stealthily" along the north coast of New Guinea instead of taking the obvious southern route, and the TF had gotten to the north coast of Australia unnoticed. Afterwards, when Treespider brought out a substantial part of the KB to support the invasion of Sorong I pulled my ships back from Darwin to Broome, which also meant that Treespider's spy subs only spotted my MSWs in Darwin, reinforcing the idea that things were pretty quiet in the region.

Last turn I was surprised to find that the Japanese had neared Lautem but hadn't reached it. It was obviously a regular transport TF and not a Fast Transport TF. That gave me time to send the Asiatic Fleet ships from Koepang to Lautem to wait along with the Dutch. This also gave my CV TF the chance to get on the east side of Lautem. Treespider has been very busy in recent turns using his LBA to blast various Allied bases from the air, so there was a very good chance that there wouldn't be any Bettys or Nells on "naval attack" in the region. And, lo-and-behold, things worked out as I planned; starting with an initial surface interception:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Lautem at 33, 78

Japanese Ships
DD Yamakaze, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Shiokaze, Shell hits 1
DD Otori
DD Hayabusa
MSW Wa 14, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Atsuta Maru
AP Hikawa Maru
AP Sangetsu Maru
AP Sasago Maru
AP Seizan Maru
AP Taihei Maru
AP Taizin Maru
AP Tango Maru
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Zyuyo Maru
AP Chinko Maru

Allied Ships
CA Astoria, Shell hits 1
DD Alden, Shell hits 2
DD Barker
DD Edsall
DD John D. Edwards, Shell hits 1
DD Paul Jones, Shell hits 1
DD Peary
DD Whipple
DD Stewart

Japanese ground losses:
13 casualties reported


None of the hits on the US ships were significant. Daylight found the Japanese TF sitting to the southwest of Lautem, and within the range of the dive bombers from my CV TF but, unfortunately, not within the range of the torpedo bombers. But the dive bombers, with the additional support of various Australian land-based bombers, still did a nice job:

Day Air attack on TF at 32, 79

Allied aircraft
F2A Buffalo x 11
SBD Dauntless x 33
Hudson I x 7
P-40E Warhawk x 18

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Seizan Maru
AP Teiryu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Hayabusa
AP Taizin Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Zyuyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Taihei Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Tango Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Otori
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
217 casualties reported
Guns lost 4


And the naval bombers got a second chance:

Day Air attack on TF at 32, 79

Allied aircraft
F2A Buffalo x 11
SBD Dauntless x 33

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Teiryu Maru, on fire
DD Otori
MSW Wa 14, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hikawa Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AP Zyuyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Sasago Maru
AP Atsuta Maru, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
100 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


The Australian LBA got additional chances too, but didn't score more hits. Only one MSW sank, but I expect that more ships will eventually succumb to their wounds, and I'm also moving subs in the way to see if I can catch a few more.

I've got the CV TF heading back to Broome, along with the Asiatic Fleet SC TF. The dive bombers may get one more shot at the Japanese TF on the way by, but that's not a priority. I expect Treespider to move LBA and some of the KB into the region very quickly, and I don't want to be caught. I am leaving the Dutch in Lautem for one more turn, because I think that I can get away with that because of the P-40Es riding cover over them. (I don't want Treespider to get "cute" and try to send the transport TF back to Lautem under the assumption that I will "hit and run".)

Lots of other things happened this turn, most of which didn't favor the Allies. For example, a BB-lead TF bombarded Kendari. Treespider must have been very thankful that my CV TF didn't find his bombardment TF as had happened at Rabaul. Sub I-153 played cat-n-mouse with a Dutch MSW off of Darwin. And an Alf spotted a US ship to the south of Guadalcanal.

Now, that's one to think about. Treespider has no aircraft in Shortlands as of yet, so that must have been a ship-borne scout plane. Does that mean that a Japanese TF with cruisers or AV/CS ships is in the Eastern Solomons? It so happens that the US ship spotted is part of yet another US CV TF. So just in case I can take advantage of all the "distraction" in the Timor region, the US CV TF that I was sending slowly down to Australia has now received orders to go back to the eastern side of Guadalcanal and look for "opportunities". I've also redirected a lot of subs into the "Slot". Of course, if that Alf was on a cruiser that is attached to part of the KB, I could be in very big trouble, but hey, you've got to take some chances as the Allied player!

BTW - nothing occurred in the Aleutians this turn, so I have no idea of what happened to the Japanese DDs that pestered the US sub at Kiska, nor where those ships went. As mentioned before, I don't care what Treespider does in the Aleutians right now; any forces that he is wasting in the blizzards up there are not bothering me elsewhere, which is a good thing.

And in most of the "Big Elsewhere" that makes up the Far East, Japanese planes rained havoc over Allied bases with few exceptions. One of those exceptions was at Kweilin, where a third of the AVG caught an incoming Japanese air attack from above:

Day Air attack on Kweilin, at 44, 38

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 8
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 8
Ki-51 Sonia x 27
Ki-21 Sally x 23
Ki-15 Babs x 2

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 5 destroyed
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 4 destroyed
Ki-51 Sonia: 2 destroyed
Ki-21 Sally: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 2 damaged

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 16


This will keep Treespider "honest" in this region. In addition, Dutch bombers hit another AP at Brunei, but missed a Japanese SC TF off of the south coast of Borneo. Some other Dutch base is likely to be bombarded this coming turn.

The ground war went much more in the Japanese favor. Clark Field was captured in a deliberate attack, with the troops escaping to Bataan. Georgetown was captured via a shock attack. Japanese troops also drove out some Chinese units that were sitting to the south of Kweilin. We are still playing "I-GO" in China, and as part of that a Japanese deliberate attack at Ichang failed, but not by very much. Wuchow and Johore Bharu only received artillery bombardments.

Things are fairly quite right now in Burma as Treespider consolidates his gains. I have my B-17 squadrons taking turns bombing the air field at Mandalay, just to keep it under repair and to use up Japanese supplies in that malarial base. I only have a dozen bombers in each of the former Philippine bomber units, so I'm not exactly "darkening the skies", but I am keeping Treespider on his toes in that region. And, thank goodness, I'll be getting Brit Hurricanes in a few days, which will make me feel a lot more comfortable in India.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 101
Trying out 1.801 - 5/19/2006 5:26:22 AM   
ADavidB


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January 9, 1942 -

Treespider and I both installed v1.801 and it appears to work well. I like the new features for adding planes to air units.

This was a much quieter turn than the last. As I expected, a Japanese CV TF showed up off of Eastern Timor to cover the retreating Transport TF. I found out about the AC TF because some Judys tried to attack that MSW in Darwin, but missed. It will be interesting to see if Treespider goes further into Allied waters. I've sent the remaining TFs in the Timor bases away from the AC TF and there are a fair number of bombers and fighters in the area.

That source of Alfs in the Eastern Solomon finally showed up this turn. Intel says that there is a CA there. Since there are no signs of any carrier planes, I've ordered my CV TF further to the north in case I can catch an incoming Japanese TF. Even if Treespider has CVs at Truk or in the Marshalls, it will take them a bit longer to get to the Eastern Solomons, and so I ought to have a day to "look around".

All this "fooling around" didn't stop Treespider from continuing with his activities in the rest of the Far East. The same bombers that were hitting my Far Eastern bases in large quantities the past few turns continued again this turn. Balikpapan received another naval bombardment too.

The Allied LBA in the DEI tried a fairly feeble response to all the Japanese activity. The best raid was by bombers from Soerabaja that hit the paratroops on the ground in SE Borneo. That will slow down the inevitable a bit.

In the land war, a deliberate attack on Ichang failed and was surprisingly weak. A shock attack at Johore Bahru also failed. Wuchow received an artillery bombardment as usual. Treespider and I continue our "dance" to position our troops on the "little red lines" in China. I find this such an uninteresting waste of time, but I refuse to just let Treespider roll over China without a struggle. BTW - there was no air attack on Kweilin this turn…

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 102
Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/19/2006 6:59:22 AM   
ADavidB


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January 10, 1942 -

Boy did I ever get a big surprise in the Eastern Solomons. My carrier TF didn't end up where I was expecting next to Guadalcanal but instead ended up near Nendi. And there were more than just one Japanese TF up there north of Lunga. But the BIG surprise was that the Enterprise and friends ended up next to the KB!!!

Under normal conditions, this would have meant that the Enterprise and its escorts would be on the bottom by now, but for some reason Treespider had his attack aircraft on non-naval attack settings. So the planes of the Enterprise had a chance for a strike against the KB. But if you've ever experimented with the capabilities of the Allied forces early in the Game, you will know that what happened was the best case scenario for Treespider, all things considered:

Day Air attack on TF at 72,100

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 40

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 11
SBD Dauntless x 34
TBD Devastator x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 7 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 23 destroyed
TBD Devastator: 10 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Akagi
BB Kirishima, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Zuikaku
CV Kaga
BB Hiei


Yes, the Japanese CAP killed my attack, and I was lucky at all to get those two hits. Now, I have to hope that the KB is relatively low on fuel, so that it gets slowed down by the necessity to refuel in transit. My best case scenario is that Treespider doesn't split off the Shokaku and the Kirishima and they slow down the TF too, but I can't really see Treespider making that kind of mistake. But in any event, I'm going to try to race the Big E out of harm's way; although I kind of figure that my luck has run out.

That mess aside, it is pretty obvious that Treespider intends to drive down through the South Pacific to cut off Australia from the East. And in the Timor area, even more Japanese TFs have arrived, and Treespider even went in to Lautem again to land some troops. So Treespider intends to cut off Australia from India too. This means that he hopes to grab all the key outer bases early, and then go back at his leisure to capture the inner bases that he has left "hanging on the vine" for now. There's not really much I can do about any of this at this time…

In China our dance continues. All it does is to convince me how much I really, really hate the Movement, Supply and Land Combat rules in this game. Ichang received an artillery bombardment this turn while Wuchow easily repelled a deliberate attack. Johore Bahru also received an artillery bombardment, while Banjarmasin fell to a shock attack.

And in case you were wondering, hundreds and hundreds of Japanese bombers bombed everything in sight in the Far East. Allied LBA did get to bomb a couple of the APs which were withdrawing from Lautem.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 103
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/19/2006 7:38:48 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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I'd like to think I was not only annoying enough about ASW (major arsehole perhaps!) but may have inspired some of the ideas. In any case I'm really happy the way surface ASW works now and any tweaks needed can be achieved through the editor. I'm aware of the issue you see in base hexes David but I always thought subs were too easy to spot anyway so no biggie for me...as long as the subs don't shoot more often than they are attacked.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 104
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/19/2006 9:11:25 AM   
Jim D Burns


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From: Salida, CA.
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Hi Dave,

Was catching up on your AAR after a week or so of not reading it and was going to congratulate you on some decent early victories for the allies due to Treespider’s aggressive style of play. Then I read this last post.

Looks like you have both now paid a price for aggressive tactics. I hope big E escapes, but I sincerely doubt it will. After seeing what happened to your air groups, were I playing Japan, I’d split my CV’s into 2 CV fleets and spread them out to cover most of the possible escape routes.

If he gambles and keeps KB together, there is a good chance he will guess wrong on which direction you will flee and you can escape, but my guess is he’ll have 2 CV’s covering the three most likely escape routes you can choose from. Southwest, South and Southeast. He might even make two single CV task forces and send one East as well.

This next turn should be very exciting.

Jim


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(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 105
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/19/2006 11:56:18 AM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Under normal conditions, this would have meant that the Enterprise and its escorts would be on the bottom by now, but for some reason Treespider had his attack aircraft on non-naval attack settings. So the planes of the Enterprise had a chance for a strike against the KB. But if you've ever experimented with the capabilities of the Allied forces early in the Game, you will know that what happened was the best case scenario for Treespider, all things considered:



Have yet to read Forrest's version of the story. Thus a guess should be allowed. Actually quite simple: His attack aircraft were not on naval attack because he wanted to remain undetected (he probably feared that his bombers would spot subs or other TF's). Ostensibly he did not expect a carrier battle but wanted to move into your shipping lanes unseen before showing his presence (he would not need stealth if covering an invasion attempt).

K

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 106
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/19/2006 1:06:29 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'd like to think I was not only annoying enough about ASW (major arsehole perhaps!) but may have inspired some of the ideas. In any case I'm really happy the way surface ASW works now and any tweaks needed can be achieved through the editor. I'm aware of the issue you see in base hexes David but I always thought subs were too easy to spot anyway so no biggie for me...as long as the subs don't shoot more often than they are attacked.


The problem with making subs visible but "uncatchable" in port hexes is that they get to see all TFs going in and out. There is too much "free" Intel in the game as it is. IMO a sub in the shallows in a base hex should be even more at risk than anywhere else.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 107
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/19/2006 1:13:12 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Hi Dave,

Was catching up on your AAR after a week or so of not reading it and was going to congratulate you on some decent early victories for the allies due to Treespider’s aggressive style of play. Then I read this last post.

Looks like you have both now paid a price for aggressive tactics. I hope big E escapes, but I sincerely doubt it will. After seeing what happened to your air groups, were I playing Japan, I’d split my CV’s into 2 CV fleets and spread them out to cover most of the possible escape routes.

If he gambles and keeps KB together, there is a good chance he will guess wrong on which direction you will flee and you can escape, but my guess is he’ll have 2 CV’s covering the three most likely escape routes you can choose from. Southwest, South and Southeast. He might even make two single CV task forces and send one East as well.

This next turn should be very exciting.

Jim



Hey, if I don't do something to throw off his plans he'll be in San Diego before I know it. The only way to handle a hyper-aggressive player is to gamble on disrupting his early moves.

As I mentioned, the one hope that I have is that the KB has probably already used a fair amount of fuel to get to where it is - those Japanese DDs are fairly short-legged. If he gets held up by a hex or two for refueling then I have a decent chance.

If the Big E survives this next turn I will split off the short-legged US DDs and have them head towards different bases. That will allow my main force to continue at full speed, and give more targets to confuse the enemy.

And never forget, we are both operating under "advanced weather" so anything can happen... (I'm an optimist. )

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 108
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/19/2006 1:23:09 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Under normal conditions, this would have meant that the Enterprise and its escorts would be on the bottom by now, but for some reason Treespider had his attack aircraft on non-naval attack settings. So the planes of the Enterprise had a chance for a strike against the KB. But if you've ever experimented with the capabilities of the Allied forces early in the Game, you will know that what happened was the best case scenario for Treespider, all things considered:



Have yet to read Forrest's version of the story. Thus a guess should be allowed. Actually quite simple: His attack aircraft were not on naval attack because he wanted to remain undetected (he probably feared that his bombers would spot subs or other TF's). Ostensibly he did not expect a carrier battle but wanted to move into your shipping lanes unseen before showing his presence (he would not need stealth if covering an invasion attempt).

K


Here's what he wrote to me:

Arggh!!!


Oooo-fahhh!!!

Nuts!!!!

Absolutely unforgivable on my part!!!! !!

I almost laid my head on the chopping block!!!!!!

I've been merrily sailing around the South Pacific with my Vals set on Ground Attack, my Zeros set at range 1 and my Kates set on naval attack.

I fully expected to get KB sunk this turn... but Huzzah I didn’t!!!!



I don't understand why at least his Kates didn't attack. They did scout my TF.

I was actually surprised that the US planes got any hits in at all. I was experiementing with V1.80 on the head-to-head setting to see what was the absolute "best" that could be expected in the early game for the Allies. So I stood down all Japanese planes, sent all Japanese TFs back to port, withdrew all Japanese troops from forward bases and so on. Then I attacked with everything the Allies had...

It was pretty pathetic. Seeing the US battleline fizzle against a transport TF, and the US carrier air get wiped out by Japanese AA alone is discouraging. The experience set my expectations very low.

So what I want to do is to damage the Japanese fleet at this time in order to throw off Treespider's expansion timetable. The more "little" ships that he had damaged, the harder it will be for him to move troops and supplies forward. It won't stop him early on, but I still have to buy time.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 109
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/19/2006 8:40:06 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
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Cool counterattack off of Timor. As to the other one . . . unfortunately, the more places you use carriers, the more likely they're going to have brown-note moments.

Enjoying the read.

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 110
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/20/2006 1:03:35 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Cool counterattack off of Timor. As to the other one . . . unfortunately, the more places you use carriers, the more likely they're going to have brown-note moments.

Enjoying the read.


My only regret is that I didn't keep my third CV in the region. It would have been fun to put a "wolve amongst the sheep" in the Solomons while the KB chases the Big E into the vastness of the South Pacific... (I can only dream... )

This is the best time in the early part of the Game for the Allies to try surprise attacks because most Japanese players will attempt to do multiple attacks. Most Japanese players also attempt to keep the Japanese carriers together in big, overwhelming TFs. That means if an Allied player is careful and lucky, he can find Japanese invasion TFs that don't have adequate protection.

It's only after the main expansion is complete and the Japanese player can pick-and-chose a few key spots to attack with overwhelming force does the Allied player have to pull back and wait. My great fear as an Allied player is running into a Japanese player who right off the bat breaks the Japanese CVs into a handful of two-carrier TFs to both support invasions and to hunt down the US CVs. Two Japanese CVs are more than a match for one or two US CVs in 1942, and it would be worth having damage to some of the Japanese CVs to sink the US CVs as they come into the game.

But then, maybe that strategy is why my Allied opponents always give up so quickly...

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

(Who still has to extricate the Big E out of the mess that it is in.)

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 111
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/20/2006 1:09:10 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

This is the best time in the early part of the Game for the Allies to try surprise attacks because most Japanese players will attempt to do multiple attacks. Most Japanese players also attempt to keep the Japanese carriers together in big, overwhelming TFs. That means if an Allied player is careful and lucky, he can find Japanese invasion TFs that don't have adequate protection.

It's only after the main expansion is complete and the Japanese player can pick-and-chose a few key spots to attack with overwhelming force does the Allied player have to pull back and wait. My great fear as an Allied player is running into a Japanese player who right off the bat breaks the Japanese CVs into a handful of two-carrier TFs to both support invasions and to hunt down the US CVs. Two Japanese CVs are more than a match for one or two US CVs in 1942, and it would be worth having damage to some of the Japanese CVs to sink the US CVs as they come into the game.


I think this is really good analysis and that some allied players haven't gotten this far in their thinking. There are a number of them who think the Japanese are overwhelming so they sit in port, end of story. But one more aspect of the "rock, paper, scissors" equation, is that IF you detect the Japanese breaking up into small (too far apart to be supporting) CV groups, then you can form your own DS and defeat them in detail. Just watch out for the 100 Betties supported by 100 land based Zeros trick !



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(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 112
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/20/2006 1:33:52 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
I think this is really good analysis and that some allied players haven't gotten this far in their thinking. There are a number of them who think the Japanese are overwhelming so they sit in port, end of story. But one more aspect of the "rock, paper, scissors" equation, is that IF you detect the Japanese breaking up into small (too far apart to be supporting) CV groups, then you can form your own DS and defeat them in detail. Just watch out for the 100 Betties supported by 100 land based Zeros trick !


I take a very different view. While I don’t hide in port, I always ask myself what my potential gain is for a move and then ask if the loss of a CV would be worth said gain.

In Timor I think David’s move was brilliantly done and the decision to withdraw the very next turn instead of chasing stragglers was a sound one. He new what he wanted to achieve and new what limits he was willing to go to achieve his goal.

But in the Solomon’s he reacted to a float plane and said, “I've ordered my CV TF further to the north in case I can catch an incoming Japanese TF”. He had no idea what the potential payoff would be and was simply fishing. To me this would simply be an unacceptable risk. Had I known what was there then perhaps I would have taken the chance, but venturing into the unknown with a single CV while not knowing KB’s whereabouts was extremely risky.

Of course all this is due to my strong desire to have an effective counter-attack force by the beginning of 1943 that can stand up to KB. If I lose one or two carriers in early adventures, I will probably have to wait till the end of 1943 to make up those losses and will have wasted an entire year sticking to land base air cover counter-attack targets only.

By preserving my carrier strength, my options are wide open from 1943 onwards. And this makes it much tougher on Japan because I will likely have a foothold in the Gilberts/Marshall’s by the end of 1943 putting me that much closer to Japan.

Of course that’s not to say I disagree with Dave’s analysis. On the contrary, I agree completely, but I think it needs to be tempered with a risk/reward analysis before making any adventurous moves.

Jim



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Post #: 113
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/20/2006 2:12:21 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

This is the best time in the early part of the Game for the Allies to try surprise attacks because most Japanese players will attempt to do multiple attacks. Most Japanese players also attempt to keep the Japanese carriers together in big, overwhelming TFs. That means if an Allied player is careful and lucky, he can find Japanese invasion TFs that don't have adequate protection.

It's only after the main expansion is complete and the Japanese player can pick-and-chose a few key spots to attack with overwhelming force does the Allied player have to pull back and wait. My great fear as an Allied player is running into a Japanese player who right off the bat breaks the Japanese CVs into a handful of two-carrier TFs to both support invasions and to hunt down the US CVs. Two Japanese CVs are more than a match for one or two US CVs in 1942, and it would be worth having damage to some of the Japanese CVs to sink the US CVs as they come into the game.


I think this is really good analysis and that some allied players haven't gotten this far in their thinking. There are a number of them who think the Japanese are overwhelming so they sit in port, end of story. But one more aspect of the "rock, paper, scissors" equation, is that IF you detect the Japanese breaking up into small (too far apart to be supporting) CV groups, then you can form your own DS and defeat them in detail. Just watch out for the 100 Betties supported by 100 land based Zeros trick !




That's the big choice for the Allied player - break apart the US CVs and try to ambush small Japanese TFs, or try to leave the US CVs together in the hopes of hunting "bigger prey". The problem with the later approach is that the US CVs perform so much better individually in 1942 than they do together. And also, the US attack capability is so weak prior to the arrival of Avengers that even when you catch a Japanese TF off guard you won't do as much damage as an equivalent Japanese naval air strike.

As far as LBA goes, in early 1942 the Japanese player doesn't have to worry about getting hundreds of Bettys together - a dozen Bettys and a few Zeros will get through anything the US can put in the air over a TF. I've lost CVs, BBs and CAs lots of times to only a few Japanese bombers. So unless you intend to rely on "luck and timing" you are really limited to attacking areas where the Japanese player is expanding without proper air cover. Few Japanese players make that mistake more than once.

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 114
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/20/2006 2:17:37 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
I think this is really good analysis and that some allied players haven't gotten this far in their thinking. There are a number of them who think the Japanese are overwhelming so they sit in port, end of story. But one more aspect of the "rock, paper, scissors" equation, is that IF you detect the Japanese breaking up into small (too far apart to be supporting) CV groups, then you can form your own DS and defeat them in detail. Just watch out for the 100 Betties supported by 100 land based Zeros trick !


I take a very different view. While I don’t hide in port, I always ask myself what my potential gain is for a move and then ask if the loss of a CV would be worth said gain.

In Timor I think David’s move was brilliantly done and the decision to withdraw the very next turn instead of chasing stragglers was a sound one. He new what he wanted to achieve and new what limits he was willing to go to achieve his goal.

But in the Solomon’s he reacted to a float plane and said, “I've ordered my CV TF further to the north in case I can catch an incoming Japanese TF”. He had no idea what the potential payoff would be and was simply fishing. To me this would simply be an unacceptable risk. Had I known what was there then perhaps I would have taken the chance, but venturing into the unknown with a single CV while not knowing KB’s whereabouts was extremely risky.

Of course all this is due to my strong desire to have an effective counter-attack force by the beginning of 1943 that can stand up to KB. If I lose one or two carriers in early adventures, I will probably have to wait till the end of 1943 to make up those losses and will have wasted an entire year sticking to land base air cover counter-attack targets only.

By preserving my carrier strength, my options are wide open from 1943 onwards. And this makes it much tougher on Japan because I will likely have a foothold in the Gilberts/Marshall’s by the end of 1943 putting me that much closer to Japan.

Of course that’s not to say I disagree with Dave’s analysis. On the contrary, I agree completely, but I think it needs to be tempered with a risk/reward analysis before making any adventurous moves.

Jim




The key with the Solomons fiasco was that I neglected to put sufficient air search capability in place in the South Pacific. Therefore Treespider was able to surprise me. Fortunately for me, he appears to use a different set of standard parameter for his CV air units than I do. (I never use my naval air for anything other than naval or port attacks in 1942!)

In the Timor case, it was an opposite situation. Treespider failed to sound out the situation ahead of time and was surprised. He should have lead with his CVs to clear out my surface forces. I wouldn't have challenged him because I assumed that he still had a major part of the KB north of New Guinea.

In many ways, we are making the same mistakes as our historical counterparts...

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 115
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/20/2006 2:18:27 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
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quote:

US CVs perform so much better individually in 1942 than they do together


You can have it both ways !

I take it as "doctrine" that, given the game rule about US CV strikes being penalized, that US players would also operate the US CVs in task forces of 1 CV each (at least in 42). But by having the slow one lead and the other 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 follow (on patrol - react as desired) that the USN DS is a clump of single CV TFs all the in the same hex. This maximizes your strike potential and your CAP. In fact, an even better ploy might be to have the "lead" TF be the slow battlewagons (at least initially until the fast ones are available) .. the slow BBs will possibly absorb a strike and certainly help protect from a surface battle. If you need to leave them behind for a high speed run, that is still an option.



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(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 116
RE: Surprised in the Solomons... - 5/20/2006 2:26:15 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

US CVs perform so much better individually in 1942 than they do together


You can have it both ways !

I take it as "doctrine" that, given the game rule about US CV strikes being penalized, that US players would also operate the US CVs in task forces of 1 CV each (at least in 42). But by having the slow one lead and the other 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 follow (on patrol - react as desired) that the USN DS is a clump of single CV TFs all the in the same hex. This maximizes your strike potential and your CAP. In fact, an even better ploy might be to have the "lead" TF be the slow battlewagons (at least initially until the fast ones are available) .. the slow BBs will possibly absorb a strike and certainly help protect from a surface battle. If you need to leave them behind for a high speed run, that is still an option.




I've seen that theory proposed before, and it sounds reasonable, but I have rarely had the opportunity to bring my CVs together in one Theater. Keeping them split usually gives me more opportunities, particularly since Japanese players tend to keep their CVs in one or two big TFs, and those TFs can't be everywhere at once.

And now, after my experience with the Colorado and the KB in Anchorage, I have a much better use for my 20-knot BBs - they are perfect bomb-traps in ports. The Colorado was hit around 25 times with bombs, and sustained a grand total of 6 system damage points! Sure, a handful of obsolete AA guns were trashed. But they were repaired in no time at all! If that had been a CA or something else smaller, it would have been trashed. Treespider went away pleased with himself, and with empty bomb magazines... someday I may be able to take advantage of this...

Thanks again -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 117
The Great Chase... - 5/20/2006 4:18:49 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
January 11, 1942 -

Well, the big news this turn is that the Big E is still alive, well and steaming at full speed. The bad news is that its TF was spotted again by an Alf, but without the Japanese ship being spotted in turn. I'm leaving that TF on its course and betting upon Japanese fuel issues to come to my aid. We'll see if I'm right.

The "Great Chase" didn't affect the rest of the Japanese plans in any way. Buin was occupied automatically. Kendari received a naval bombardment and troops started to land. Palembang received a naval bombardment and troops ships tried to work their way through a picket line of submarines and Dutch bombers at the cost of one Japanese AP hit by a bomb and another hit by a torpedo. Troops started to land at Lunga after an unsuccessful submarine attack on the Japanese invasion fleet.

In the Timor area, Australian LBA first hit an AP that was withdrawing from Lautem and next one of the APs that had been hit by the carrier planes two days before sank. Then Treespider found out that CVEs really can't be used like CVs:

Day Air attack on TF at 35, 78

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 8
A6M2 Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
Hudson I x 3
P-40B Tomahawk x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A5M4 Claude: 1 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson I: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVE Taiyo, Bomb hits 1


The Taiyo was smoking nicely as it withdrew towards my waiting submarines...

There were a lot of Japanese air attacks again, with big ones on Manila and on Batavia where 86 Nells came in with Zeros on escort. My Dutch fighters put up a good fight and the damage to the airfield at Batavia was minimal. Unescorted Bettys flew against Koepang again with the sort of results that I like:

Day Air attack on Koepang, at 28, 77

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 14

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 damaged


The former USAAFFE pilots are getting some nice experience in the Timor region, and of course, Australia is a short flight away.

In the ground war, Treespider tried an early shock attack at Manila, with the sort of results that you would expect:

Ground combat at Manila

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 66770 troops, 572 guns, 6 vehicles, Assault Value = 1599

Defending force 75630 troops, 895 guns, 251 vehicles, Assault Value = 1553

Japanese max assault: 1936 - adjusted assault: 176

Allied max defense: 1671 - adjusted defense: 9349

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese ground losses:
7500 casualties reported
Guns lost 80
Vehicles lost 5

Allied ground losses:
728 casualties reported
Guns lost 30
Vehicles lost 3


A little patience goes a long way in this sort of thing. The small force that landed at Lautem tried a deliberate attack also with no success. Elsewhere, Ichang, Wuchow and Johore Bahru received artillery bombardments. A good Chinese Division that I brought in to try to relieve the blockade of Ichang ran into an even better Japanese Division and was pushed back, despite having done quite an effective artillery attack first. All-in-all, China continues to be a mess.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 118
RE: The Great Chase... - 5/20/2006 5:57:51 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

Treespider continued PT boat-hunting in the Philippines and DEI. A Japanese CL/DD TF attacked the American PTs at Davao, sinking one. Another duplicate Japanese CL/DD TF attacked the Dutch PTs at Pontianak and sank one of them too. I'm not a big fan of the changes that were made to the PT model a few game-revisions back; PTs are almost useless now


If you've got some PPs to play with try messing around with leaders for the PTs a little. I splurged some PPs on a pair of boats that had retreated to Davao in my PBEM (see AAR). In a series of engagements over the course of 5 or so days the PTs sank 2 DDs and an AP and damaged several more Jap ships. Only lost one PT.

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 119
RE: The Great Chase... - 5/20/2006 6:37:08 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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David,

Just tuned into this AAR - it's great!

Don't worry too much about the Enterprise, Captain Kirk will bring her out in one piece!

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 120
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