Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Fishbed

But Peiking (Beijing) is named Peiking (Beijing) on the map, while this used to be its name before 1928, and after 1949, but not between 1928 and 1949, which is exactly the scope of this game, isn't it? And this is for a reason: Peiking (Beijing - which means "the northern capital") was renamed Peiping (Beiping - which means "the northern peace") in 1928 because Nanking (Nanjing -which means the "southern capital") became the KMT's official capital city. Peiking losing its official status, they decided it had to lose its name too, and that name didn't come back before the Communist take over in 1949, which reverted to Peiking (Beijing) as a capital city.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Personally, I'd vote for Peking as the name familiar to anglophones at the time.

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I am intrigued to discover that the city was named Peiping in 1936 (with its own province of the same name reaching almost to Tientsin) but in 1942 it had reverted to Peking and the mini-province had disappeared.

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ORIGINAL: Fishbed
Ive been 2 years in Nanchang myself, and I cand positively confirm that the Gan river (Kan on your map) protects Nanchang western approachs, not eastern as it is the case on the preview map.

Note that the west bank of the Gan Jiang was built up only during the last decades, and before that, I doubt there was anything across the Gan Jiang, even a bridge. It is quite important, because this means an agressor, like the Japanese historically, should attack unopposed from the east, while Chinese reinforcements from the north, the west and the south-west would have to cross the river. Nanchang being an important battleground of the Sino-Japanese war, I think that modification would come handy

I would advocate that the Gan/Kan river travels on the opposite side of the Nanchang Hex. This way, it will cross the Changsha-Nanchang railway in the south, like that:

What do you think?

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I'd see no problem to turn Nanchang into a marshy hex either, anyway. That west bank of hers used to be unsuitable for anything before modern construction means were available, and there's still mud and water everywhere around the city...

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ORIGINAL: Fishbed

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I am an old man brought up to believe Peking was the capital of China. Even in my frail dotage, I have come to accept that perhaps its Beijing not Peking. But Peiping....please enough. I never had a bad grasp of geography but if this continues I won`t have a clue who I am or where I live.

In all seriousness - this could open up a whole can of worms - Volgograd?, Stalingrad?, Tsaritsyn? etc. Can I ask that we give serious consideration before such name changes are considered?

Well it shouldn't be a can of worms - actually, it is Peiking which is contrasting with everything else, not the opposite.

Stalingrad is named Stalingrad on the map, because it was named Stalingrad back then, even though it is Volgograd today, right? And no-one would call it Tsaritsyn because there's no reason for it.
Leningrad is named Leningrad on the map, because it was named Leningrad back then, even though it is St.Petersburg today, right? And no-one would call it Petrograd because there's no reason for it.

But Peiking (Beijing) is named Peiking (Beijing) on the map, while this used to be its name before 1928, and after 1949, but not between 1928 and 1949, which is exactly the scope of this game, isn't it? And this is for a reason: Peiking (Beijing - which means "the northern capital") was renamed Peiping (Beiping - which means "the northern peace") in 1928 because Nanking (Nanjing -which means the "southern capital") became the KMT's official capital city. Peiking losing its official status, they decided it had to lose its name too, and that name didn't come back before the Communist take over in 1949, which reverted to Peiking (Beijing) as a capital city.
Actually, my grand-father, who is a retired KMT general in Taiwan, still calls that place Peiping (Beiping)...!

Technically, I guess Allied maps between 1941 and 1945 probably mentioned Peiping as the official given name of that place.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

I have just checked and all World War II books I have and that cover the conflict in China have the name Peking - every one. I am guessing most people playing this game will know Peking and/or Beijing but will never have heard (rightly or wrongly) of Peiping.

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If the will of the majority is to have that name on the map then clearly so be it as I cannot argue against what is factualy correct - and genuinely thanks for enlightening me on China and her capital.

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ORIGINAL: wosung

Peking/Peiping: For the background, Fishbed absolutely is right. This is a deeply political issue between contending factions. But for MWIF both names work (see my post 396)

“Peiping” represents the retrospective and contemporary acknowledgment of KMT Nanking Government as Chinese Governement. Peking was renamed in 1929, after it was occupied by KMT National Revolutionary Army. Nanking has been made KMT capital in 1927, after Canton and Wuhan. Until then the Western powers reckognized the Chinese political faction which controlled Peking as Government of the Republic China (and granted finacial aid to it). KMT Nanking goverment practically was international reckognized, but in a subtle affront towards the antiimperialist Nanking Governement the foreign powers didn’t move their embassies to Nanking. After the Japanese took and raped Nanking in 1937 the KMT rhetoric of Peiping/Nanking obviously even symbolically didn’t made much sense any more.


  The Japanese puppet regimes used “Peiping” for their main capital once again became Nanking. The Japanese just wanted Wang Jingwei to substitute Chiang Kaisheks Regime as republic of China. Thus they hijacked, or shall we say Shanghaied, the former use of names. The Japanese themselves pronounced Peiping the Japanese way: probably Hokuhei.  

Not sure about Yennan Communist.


Yellow River: As I’ve written before (Posts 554, 560), Chinese wartime maps depict swaps in the flooded area south of Kaifeng. So 1-2 swamp hexes there or S of Chengchow could be warranted. According to one of my sources (P554) there was some military impact of this for the rest of the war. But the flooded area didn’t stop all fighting. I’ve no data about, say, fording problems of divisional formations in the flooded area from 1939 to 1945. Concerning the request of “pretty compelling evidence” (of swamps, etc.): Until now, it seems, all of us have collected more data and sources about Yellow River than on any other river on the map.
  Regards

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: wosung

Peking/Peiping: For the background, Fishbed absolutely is right. This is a deeply political issue between contending factions. But for MWIF both names work (see my post 396)

“Peiping” represents the retrospective and contemporary acknowledgment of KMT Nanking Government as Chinese Governement. Peking was renamed in 1929, after it was occupied by KMT National Revolutionary Army. Nanking has been made KMT capital in 1927, after Canton and Wuhan. Until then the Western powers reckognized the Chinese political faction which controlled Peking as Government of the Republic China (and granted finacial aid to it). KMT Nanking goverment practically was international reckognized, but in a subtle affront towards the antiimperialist Nanking Governement the foreign powers didn’t move their embassies to Nanking. After the Japanese took and raped Nanking in 1937 the KMT rhetoric of Peiping/Nanking obviously even symbolically didn’t made much sense any more.


The Japanese puppet regimes used “Peiping” for their main capital once again became Nanking. The Japanese just wanted Wang Jingwei to substitute Chiang Kaisheks Regime as republic of China. Thus they hijacked, or shall we say Shanghaied, the former use of names. The Japanese themselves pronounced Peiping the Japanese way: probably Hokuhei.

Not sure about Yennan Communist.


Yellow River: As I’ve written before (Posts 554, 560), Chinese wartime maps depict swaps in the flooded area south of Kaifeng. So 1-2 swamp hexes there or S of Chengchow could be warranted. According to one of my sources (P554) there was some military impact of this for the rest of the war. But the flooded area didn’t stop all fighting. I’ve no data about, say, fording problems of divisional formations in the flooded area from 1939 to 1945. Concerning the request of “pretty compelling evidence” (of swamps, etc.): Until now, it seems, all of us have collected more data and sources about Yellow River than on any other river on the map.
Regards

I like using Peiping since, based on my reading of the posts here, that was the generally accepted name. However, if using that name is politically controversial, we should stay with Peking - as in WIF FE.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the best way to depict the flooded area from the point of view of game-play is to use lake hexsides.

The problem with creating MWiF swamps is that they make the terrain more desirable, not less.  What the histories tell us is that the flooded area channelled attacks to the north and south of it: the inundation was effectively impassable to both sides when it came to combat operations.  That is best depicted by lake hexsides (with of course an explanation of 'Flooded Area').

Lake Chaoyang on my 1936/42 maps doesn't exist as a lake at all, but rather as a swamp between two rivers.  That seems a reasonable way to depict the Yellow River flooded zone.

I would suggest at least three, perhaps four, lake hexsides starting with the hexside SW Kaifeng and heading downstream.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney


The problem with creating MWiF swamps is that they make the terrain more desirable, not less. 

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the best way to depict the flooded area from the point of view of game-play is to use lake hexsides.

The problem with creating MWiF swamps is that they make the terrain more desirable, not less.  What the histories tell us is that the flooded area channelled attacks to the north and south of it: the inundation was effectively impassable to both sides when it came to combat operations.  That is best depicted by lake hexsides (with of course an explanation of 'Flooded Area').

Lake Chaoyang on my 1936/42 maps doesn't exist as a lake at all, but rather as a swamp between two rivers.  That seems a reasonable way to depict the Yellow River flooded zone.

I would suggest at least three, perhaps four, lake hexsides starting with the hexside SW Kaifeng and heading downstream.

I must say that I'm agreeing with what you wrote here, and think that if the flood area must be represented on the map, this is the best way to go.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
A picture of the proposed modification to the map would help at this point. I think it would help us reach a consensus.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
How about a name for the new lake: Flooded Area (1938)?

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

And you might consider relocating the resource within the hex so it does not look like it is named Lake Hungtse.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I vote for at least three flooded hexsides.  As presently depicted, the two flooded hexsides deny Japan only a single hex (the one SE of Changchow).  The third hexside downstream would deny them two, which seems more in keeping with the devastation.

I vote against a pale blue 'old Yellow River' because it confuses the issue.  Players are likely to expect some sort of combat bonus from it.  If you feel it is important to mark the old route, something completely original is needed, such as double dashed lines.