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RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

 
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RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 2/22/2008 10:51:59 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Could you show also the Nanchang area, a little south of that screenshot ?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 661
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 2/22/2008 10:59:29 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Could you show also the Nanchang area, a little south of that screenshot ?

Sure. I guess that Lake Poyang is of interest.




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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 662
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 2/27/2008 4:42:46 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jcprom

Thanks, and congratulations on all the work done. The maps are gorgeous and the interface is really pleasant.

If I might suggest something, why not open a thread on play-testing with the new scale?

The obvious scenario which could be play-tested first is the Chinese war from May-June 1937 to November-December 1941.

I know the time frame starts before MWIF. However, play-testers could possibly handle the MJ37-SO39 part with printed China-only maps and their own counters from WIF:FE?

In addition to their comments, the number of land attacks per turn for each side would be interesting.

IMHO, if you get the Chinese war right (with an adequate mix of system-wide small modifications on breakdowns, divisions, territorials and garrisons?, handling of losses in land combat?, supply?), the rest (Burma/Malaysia/India, Japanese war wih Russia, US invasion of Japan...) is going to work pretty well.

Jerome


I believe that the beta testers could say something about this if they weren't operating under an NDA, which a thread on play-testing the China front would probably violate.

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~ Composer99

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 663
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 3/13/2008 12:39:00 PM   
IKerensky

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/7/2001
Status: offline 		Looks like Nationalist China can again use the new scale to pull a thing on the Japanese army.

Put a black 1-2 strength unit in the hex with the chekiang label on the last map shown and you are seriously crippling the supply along the road... not to mention you will be quite costly and risky to get ride of.

But the situation look better now. Of course it is a matter of the new deployment area...

There is more town but the japanese still need a lot of HQ to cancel all thoses ZoC the chinese can put on roads from mountains area.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 664
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 3/13/2008 8:58:09 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KERENSKY

Looks like Nationalist China can again use the new scale to pull a thing on the Japanese army.

Put a black 1-2 strength unit in the hex with the chekiang label on the last map shown and you are seriously crippling the supply along the road... not to mention you will be quite costly and risky to get ride of.

But the situation look better now. Of course it is a matter of the new deployment area...

There is more town but the japanese still need a lot of HQ to cancel all thoses ZoC the chinese can put on roads from mountains area.

Welcome.

It's not that bad, is it? Another rail line runs from Nanking to Nanchang for supply. And yes, the little Nationalist Chinese unit would be in excellent defensive position. But it would be out of supply, so if it moves 1 hex NW to really mess up supply, it would be easy to destroy.

And the Japanese set up 2nd, so they could position units to take it out in the first impulse. As the Japanese, all I ever want to do is kill 1 or 2 Chinese units every turn - with low odds of losing a unit myself. All sacrificial offerings are warmly accepted. Though when I play over the board, I would moan and groan about how unhappy I am with having to "clean up" all these little out of supply offerings.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to IKerensky)
Post #: 665
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 3/13/2008 11:25:24 PM   
IKerensky

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/7/2001
Status: offline 		The new rail line is usefull... in good weather. It really help.

I think you underestimate the power of an OOS chinese corp being a river into a mountain. Especially if he had a Z.O.C. over 3 road hex.

First its value is at least 3, even flipped and out of supply... not that much but meaning you have to tie at least 18 points of Japanese troups to achieve the 3/1 +1 attack in good weather... with still some bad luck possible. Could be as strong as 9 if white printed...

And you have to use precious Oil and planes to flip it first...

If you want to by pass him you have to keep 3 units doing nothing but road guard duty for the supply to through the road. The Nanking Nanchang alternate road is nice, except it is long, meaning you have to use a HQ for it to be a supply source.

Another effect of the Chenkiang gambit ( very light gambit BTW ) is the ability to keep in ZoC and thus cancel for garrison duty, quite a lot of Japanese troups, meaning partisan car appear quite easily.

The partisan number in China is big, really big but the road are so far that you need a lot of unit in garrison for the chinesse not to pop you out of supply. My previous experience in CWiF told me the japanese attack force are very bristle, cant afford exchange and in case of bad weather if played with limited supply can be cut out by a PART and a CAV.

But the sitzkrieg is something you have to expect in China anyway.

I think the easiest balancing thing to achieve a Japanese potential on par with standard WiF experience is to adjust Chinese setup to interdict putting units East of the river Ju.

But all is very dependant of the optionnal rules... If playing the Oil rules war in China is not a possible objectives for Japan as he need more units in European scale, meaning more unit to ship back from Japan and too much oil spent in thoses move and reorganise to be able to take offensive action...

But that is just my personnal experience.

Great job on the map anyway, definitely a GREAT improvement...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 666
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 3/14/2008 1:06:26 PM   
IKerensky

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/7/2001
Status: offline 		Sorry if my previous post sound a bit harsh.

I was on my nerves when I submitted it, having a previous long post eated by internet explorer and being on a thread war on another forum.

Hope you wont take offense on my comments. You did a great job, I just want to point out that some players can think out of the box :)

(in reply to IKerensky)
Post #: 667
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 3/14/2008 7:41:46 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KERENSKY

Sorry if my previous post sound a bit harsh.

I was on my nerves when I submitted it, having a previous long post eated by internet explorer and being on a thread war on another forum.

Hope you wont take offense on my comments. You did a great job, I just want to point out that some players can think out of the box :)

Not in the slightest - never occurred to me.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to IKerensky)
Post #: 668
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 3/14/2008 10:12:46 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		I would have to say that a lot of other posts in the past involve far harsher language (though, fortunately with rare exceptions not a lot of ad hominem).

The accumulation of data on how players' China campaigns have developed in CWiF is invaluable for understanding how the map change has altered the game, and thus how to model the Chinese and Japanese (and to a lesser extend Soviet, American and CW) AI behaviour to suit.

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~ Composer99

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 669
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 3/15/2008 1:41:14 PM   
IKerensky

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/7/2001
Status: offline 		I was trying to post images from my set-up in CWiF but I realised that without knowing the full stage of the OOB changes if any, and the new set up area avalibale for chineses forces, there is no way for me to correlate between thoses maps.

But I want to point out that a chinese unit flipped and OOS in mountain is often nearly as strong that a standard one :)

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 670
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/14/2008 3:59:09 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I was browsing through this thread today and noticed an important change on the new map. Maybe this has been discussed, but I can never seem to get the search feature to work here.

Picture this - the dry season 1944. (1943 if it is not a straight-up 'Germany first' US strategy). The Allies pierce the 'Malay Barrier' for the first time, taking their first port on the South China Sea. Maybe even without that, maybe a large expedition sets sail from Calcutta with some of the new 5 speed AMPHs or TRS (Island-hopping? Who needs it. Calcutta > any of several fine targets past the Strait of Malacca which WiF lets you sail through with nary a scratch is much faster and more efficient). Before leaving port, the Allies declared war on Portugal. Destination: Macao. Hovering not far away: Stilwell. Stilwell and whatever goodies the Allies can get through the probably ferocious Japanese response decisively threaten Canton and thus the future control of the South China Sea and thus the core of the Japanese economy.

Should the Allies have this new door to China? I know I was turned down in a request to have Goa be a port, despite it's definite geography. I'm sure Macao is a fine anchorage or the Portugese wouldn't have put a colony there. I think both hexes should be ports, and let the chips fall where they may. OR, take these new Portugese hexes off the map entirely. They are not on the current Asian map, only East Timor is. In the real war, first the Western Allies and then the Japanese occupied East Timor, and no one noticed, from a diplomatic point of view.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 671
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/14/2008 11:36:37 PM   
Norman42


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From: Canada
Status: offline

I don't see this as a very large problem. There are several ports in that area of China that could be used to the same effect, and Japan is very unlikely to have any defence in most of them. Macao adding one more won't change much. If the WAllies can sail the South China Sea with impunity and launch invasions, then really any coastal hex is pretty much up for grabs, and the Macao/Hong Kong area is just one option (and not one that I'd choose to attack first, since you would now have to hold it against Japanese overland counterattacks).

That being said, the idea for an invasion of Hong Kong and Formosa was put forward by US planners(and supported by British leadership), but they decided to go through the Phillipenes instead, for political reasons mostly, but also because Hong Kong was a 'dead end' conquest. Capturing Hong Kong/Canton would have embroiled the US in the landwar in China, something they didn't want, nor would it have accomplished much to end the war.

To sum it up: by the time the Macao Gambit could be realistically played, it is most likely irrelevant as the allies should have multiple ports in range of the Japanese core sea zones already and the IJN is probably on the bottom of the ocean...in which case there are bigger and better targets than Canton.

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Post #: 672
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/14/2008 11:40:09 PM   
Norman42


Posts: 244
Joined: 2/9/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Just as a side note, I was in Hong Kong in 1987, and one night the sky lit up on the southern horizon.  When I asked my hosts what it was, they said it was "another fireworks factory in Macao exploding".  The southern sky was lit up like a rainbow coloured sunset at midnight.

Apparently it was a fairly frequent event.

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C.L.Norman

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Post #: 673
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/15/2008 12:49:40 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		ahhh. So I forgot that China is much bigger now...while looking at the big map. D'oh. I think you're right, if the Allies decided to do this they could pick anywhere they wanted to land.

(in reply to Norman42)
Post #: 674
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/31/2008 3:35:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here are the start lines for Waking Giant and Day of Infamy in northern China (Nov/Dec 1941). [I've since fixed the Nationalist flag 2 hexes above Tungkwan so it is solid like the rest.]




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 675
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/31/2008 3:37:52 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here are teh start lines in southern China for the same time period. This also shows the addition of the "river road" from Nanking to Nanchang, Wuhan, and Ichang. Data by Patrice, included in version 10.00.




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 676
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/31/2008 2:21:48 PM   
sajbalk


Posts: 264
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Davenport, Iowa
Status: offline 		Canton is surrounded by Port. and CW holdings as to the Sea. I has thought that a hex belonged to someone, that is no naval units or air units could cross a hex that belonged to a neutral power, even if there was ocean in the hex. This is obviously not the case in the War, but I thought a hex belonged to a country/terr or it was all sea.

This interpretation may be wrong and certainly must be coded differently, otherwise the Japanese units in Canton would be out of supply and no naval units could dock there unless at war with the CW or Port.

Is a part ocean/part land hex one that belongs to someone, or may all units sail through and fly over without consequence?





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Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 677
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/31/2008 3:12:07 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		The Japanese can still trace an overseas supply line out of Canton and naval units may freely enter and leave, since part of the hex is coastal area. At least, that is what  it appears to be on the map.

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(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 678
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/31/2008 4:11:25 PM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The Japanese can still trace an overseas supply line out of Canton and naval units may freely enter and leave, since part of the hex is coastal area. At least, that is what  it appears to be on the map.

Sure, there is a port also, so we don't care about the Portuguese & CW hexes.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 679
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/31/2008 7:16:49 PM   
sajbalk


Posts: 264
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From: Davenport, Iowa
Status: offline 		May then an airplane from Canton overfly the ocean part of the Macau hex to rebase at extended range, if Portugal is neutral?





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Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 680
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/31/2008 11:11:01 PM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

May then an airplane from Canton overfly the ocean part of the Macau hex to rebase at extended range, if Portugal is neutral?

A plane has to fly around neutral hexes.

(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 681
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/31/2008 11:14:13 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		the whole thing is only 28 square kilometers. If I was snatching up Portugal as the CW I might probably land those cheap divs created from the 3-3 Indian INF and later send in some more buddies to annoy the Japanese, making them deal with it later. that's what Allied strategy is all about. Macau is not Hong Kong nor on the 'Pacific' map so there is no restriction on that.

But Japan could fly over the Chinese hexes if it needed to, particularly the one to the SW. Only a bad Chinese player would ever put one of their units on the coast where the Imperial Guard could always land and spot for the BB fleet, and Japan could have the hex. I would put a unit right up against Canton though in that nice river-bend hex under the 'angtung' part of the province label. Make the Japanese dig it out.



(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 682
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 7/31/2008 11:14:26 PM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

May then an airplane from Canton overfly the ocean part of the Macau hex to rebase at extended range, if Portugal is neutral?







No. You can't.

RAW 9. Declaring war

"You can’t enter a hex controlled by: neutral minor country;"

Naval units do not enter hexes. They enter sea areas or ports.

-Orm



(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 683
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 8/21/2013 2:51:30 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Is there a chance of someone posting a screen shot:

Showing as much of 1939 China as possible.

Before set up (no units on the map).

But showing the hex control flags.



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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 684
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 8/21/2013 3:30:05 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Is there a chance of someone posting a screen shot:

Showing as much of 1939 China as possible.

Before set up (no units on the map).

But showing the hex control flags.




See posts #675 and #676 above in this very thread.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 685
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 8/21/2013 8:20:39 AM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Is there a chance of someone posting a screen shot:

Showing as much of 1939 China as possible.

Before set up (no units on the map).

But showing the hex control flags.



I made a picture but, unfortunately, it is more than twice the size I am allowed to post.

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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 686
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 8/21/2013 8:32:57 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Is there a chance of someone posting a screen shot:

Showing as much of 1939 China as possible.

Before set up (no units on the map).

But showing the hex control flags.



I made a picture but, unfortunately, it is more than twice the size I am allowed to post.

I made another picture of the east part of China in Global War (39) before set up.

The picture is of zoom two so details are difficult to see. Maybe you prefer several smaller pictures instead?




Attachment (1)

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 687
RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 8/21/2013 3:20:47 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Orm thank you for posted the updated China map because as you look at Steve's post #674 and Steve's post #675 you can see the differences between then and now.

The map as it exists today is more aligned with Japanese advances during 1938-1939 (it might take some time to load)



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 8/21/2013 3:30:50 PM >

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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 688
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