RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SP:WaW Training Center >> RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible?

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible? - 5/31/2006 7:19:30 PM

FlashfyreSP

Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline

264rifle and others:
We are talking about the difference between reality and game; in the game, the sIG33 isn't a Howitzer-classed unit. It could be, but it isn't. Why? Because it's short range disqualifies it. It IS capable of indirect fire; but not the same kind as the game uses for artillery barrages. This is because the game does not account for indirect fire over microterrain obstacles, or even over on-map obstacles that would normally be fired over. Consider a small ridgeline; on the map, perhaps a line of Level 10 hexes. Enemy units are behind it; you know this, because you have units that can see behind it. Can you, without using the Bombardment function, lob shells over the ridge onto the enemy units? No...they only way to do this is to "call for artillery", using a spotter unit with contact to higher HQ, and then wait for that fire to land. However, in real life, that sIG33 could toss a handful of rounds over the ridge by altering its elevation and the Charge of powder it used, without needing to wait for higher HQ to tell it to.

By all rights, given the scale of our maps, there shouldn't be ANY artillery on the map except for Mortars, IGs, AT Guns, Recoiless Rifles, and light AA Guns. Howitzers and Field Guns should all be relegated to OBA status; but people want them for a variety of reasons, so they are in the OOBs.

Certain weapons, while Howitzers in reality, are not classed as such in the game because they don't meet all the criteria. Giving this particular weapon the same capabilities as true Howitzer weapons "cheats" the gaming system; if the game won;t allow a certain action, then we shouldn't be trying to create a jerry-rigged workaround that isn't accurate. Unless and until the game code is changed to allow true on-board indirect fire at unseen hexes, without using the Bombardment screen, then weapons like the sIG33 and others should remain as IGs, not Howitzers.

_____________________________

(in reply to Twotribes)

Post #: 31

RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible? - 5/31/2006 11:21:28 PM

264rifle

Posts: 168
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline

I thought one of the reasons that the Germans had these "infantry guns" was so that the battalion or regimental commander wouldn't have to ask/beg for fire support from a higher command.

That was one of the reasons for most armies getting a medium mortar platoon in the machine gun / heavy weapons company. British were going to get 3.7in mountain howitzers in the 1920s untill the bean counters figured that the Stokes mortar would do almost the same job a lot cheaper.

Are we also going to disqualify mortars from firing indirect because their range is TOO SHORT.?????

Haven't seen the new OOBs yet (my game computer hard drive crashed). If the Germans lost their super duper MK Is and MK IIs and had the effective range of the 50mm tank guns cut back then maybe they would need these infantry guns.

OLD OOB in 8.2 had captured Russian 122mm howitzers as DEDICATED ARTILLERY by the battery.

Which I would doubt a lot more than these infantry guns.

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 32

RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible? - 6/1/2006 1:44:23 AM

FlashfyreSP

Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline

Once agin, you are missing the point. It's not about mortars, or their range. These units were SP Guns or IGs in 8.3; probably before that too. That hasn't changed...the units are still SP Guns and IGs, because that's the way they work best for their job, given the game limitations on indirect fire without Bombardment missions. Making them Howitzers isn't going to fix that; it's just a Rube Goldberg method to achieve a desired outcome, with unintended side effects.

_____________________________

(in reply to 264rifle)

Post #: 33

RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible? - 6/1/2006 4:30:45 PM

264rifle

Posts: 168
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline

Oh, I think I get the point Flash.

It's your and Alby's mod. You and others have put a lot of hard work into it and "HOW DARE SOMEONE CRITICISE" your decisions.

Tell me that this would screw up formation selections.

Tell me that this would not work right in the points cost calculator.

Tell me that this would not be backwards compatable with too many scenerios.

Tell me that too many players like overrunnning infantry with MK I and MK II "SP GUNS" and it would be unpopular.

Tell me that reclassing the British close support tanks was a "Special case" work around and you are only going to do ONE of those per mod.

Just don't hand me a pile of horse manure like "Can't shoot indirect because the range is too short" and expect me to buy it.

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 34

RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible? - 6/1/2006 11:18:27 PM

FlashfyreSP

Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline

***sigh***
What part of this aren't you all seeing?
We didn't change this unit for the Enhanced Mod. The SP versions using the sIG33 are the same as they were in 8.3, and nobody complained then. Repeat: WE DID NOT CHANGE THESE!

My point is that, while THIS ONE UNIT won't be modeled correctly by making a Howitzer-classed unit, A LOT OF OTHER UNITS AREN'T MODELED CORRECTLY. But there are so many of them that some workaround HAD to be found; mortars, even tank main guns, don't all work correctly. Can you indirect fire a Sherman? No. But it was done many times in reality.

So considering that THIS ONE UNIT isn't modeled correctly, it isn't something I feel necessary to address. Like I said, we didn't change it for the Enhanced Mod. So my argument isn't one of "it's mine, if you don't like it, tough". I don't profess that everything in the OOBs is 100% right, or that I make no mistakes. Hell, I've already found a couple of things that needed fixing, and they'll be waiting for the first patch. But on this one unit, I don't think so. Not that it shouldn't have indirect capability, but that historically it was not used as a battery-type unit, with time-delay Bombardment requests and all the planning needed for those. It's indirect-fire capability was immediate and done in direct support of the infantry on the front lines. Since the game doesn't allow that kind of indirect fire, we will have to settle for the SP Gun or IG class.

_____________________________

(in reply to 264rifle)

Post #: 35

RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible? - 6/2/2006 1:21:40 AM

264rifle

Posts: 168
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline

Flash, I NEVER said that YOU changed this unit/s. I said that you decided NOT TO CHANGE the unit/s.

I agree with you that these units have been classed the way they are for a long, long time. Maybe from the begining. That doesn't make it right.

Indirect firing of Shermans is the reverse of this problem. I agree that it was done many times but not at ranges SHORT enough to fit on most of our maps. I am also not at all sure that they fired "ON CALL". I think that they fired as part of a pre-offensive fire plan. The plan might be organized at Corp level if not even higher????? In any case not something that really belongs in the game. By the way, the French 75mm gun (used by up to 33 countries) fired just about the same ammo as the 75mm Sherman and strictly speaking should not be allowed to fire indirect on the map either

but that would really cripple the French and is not really a good game idea.

Since almost all "Called" fire missions in the game happen too quickly (and no I am not calling for a change here. Plotting artillery 10 turns in advance IS NOT something I want to do) I am puzzled by the idea that since these units can't respond even quicker than the rest of the artillery we solve that problem by taking away (OK--OK---OK, not granting) their indirect fire capability.

Most, if not almost all my books are on the weapons themselves. I don't have much on tables of orginisation or unit histories. From the few mentions I have seen the early issue of the SP guns seems to have been 6 to a unit, One unit per division. How they divied them up after that I don't have a clue. This is not for the closed top MK III and the Brummbear which seem to have been issued 12 to a company or 42 to a battalion

and given their lack of elevation couldn't really shoot indirect anyway.

Since most indirect fire needs some sort of forward observer, and at least a fire request ( I have a hard time swallowing that battalion assets <75mm IFG> or regimental assets <150mm IFG---2 to a regiment> were really alowed to fire on targets of oppertunity on their own authority). Granted that they didn't have to ask permission from division in order to fire. I wasn't in the army, could the battalion 81mm mortars really pick their own targets and start banging away at them

with out the battalion commander getting just a little bit peeved. I know that our C@C is a little fast and loose in the game.

Another point to ponder is that these guns only had about 12 degrees of traverse (11.5) on the towed 150. This never comes up in the game and I am NOT saying it really should. But 12 degrees (IF my math is correct) means that if 1 degree equals 5 feet at 100 yds ( it might be slightly different but bear with me) 12 degrees means 600 ft/200yds=4hexes of coverd arc at 1000yds/20 hexes range or 16 hexes covered arc at at 80 hexes range. Having to shift a 2 1/2 ton gun to line up with a new target is probably going to take at least a couple of minutes.

even moving the SP gun around and making sure that the intended target is is near the middle of the covered arc ( you don't want to fire the first shot and have the FO give you a correction that is 1/4 degree past your traverse limit.

)

Oh well, I can change them in my own OBB and hope that something happens in the Future.

Thanks in advance for all your hard work Flash. (game computer still broken

)

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 36

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SP:WaW Training Center >> RE: Detaching from HQ: impossible?

Page: << < prev 1 [2]