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TAOW III for Dummies - 6/11/2006 8:35:58 AM

Bloodybucket28th

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First of all, let me cast a vile curse on Matrix for releasing this so close to Father's Day. My instant reaction was to reach for the credit card, but the better half slapped it out of my hand and reminded me that there is a special place in Perdition for men who buy themselves goodies before major gift giving dates. I'm hoping that my dad's day haul will include TAOW III as well as various unrecognizable objects crafted from Popsicle sticks.

I've read that TAOW can be daunting for a certain (ahem!) "older" class of gamer who is used to nice clean CRTs and the concept of rounds can cause distress in those of us used to peering at little cardboard counters on paper maps where the only thing that prevents all units from attacking in a turn is the household cat. BTW, I want to thank the graphic artist for pre-clipping the counters, that is an increasingly difficult task that requires nerves of steel and eyesight that were more available when bell-bottoms weren't considered "retro".

SO, while I wait for the eternity to pass that is the span between RIGHT NOW, DAMMIT and whenever I get TAOW III, can somebody point me to a resource that explains some of the "under the hood" calculations involved in combat, supporting arms allocation, interdiction, how rounds work, and any other things that are likely to cause the well intentioned but unseasoned player to go "Huh"?

Please, no suggestions that I walk uphill both ways to learn the game because that's the way great grand pappy did it way back in '98 before the earth cooled, nor will I entertain the idea that the only way to learn the game is to play somebody with more experience ("Pick me, me! I'll kick your Newbie tush and teach you how to get stomped!") since I am pretty confident that "Elmer" can provide me with all the humiliation I can handle, and do it while leaving me to do my uncontrollable sobbing in private.

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/11/2006 9:33:07 AM

JAMiAM

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There are some articles referenced in this thread here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1152701

You can also find an excellent repository of strategy articles at Strategy Zone Online, in the TOAW Zone, here http://toaw.xtreme-gamer.com/

Likewise with the forums, both here, at SZO, and at http://www.tdg.nu/ though the latter is geared more toward scenario design, and has a much lower signal:noise ratio than the TOAW forum at SZO.

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/11/2006 9:57:56 AM

Bloodybucket28th

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Many Thanks, I thought the thread stickied was about Ancient Historical Documents....silly me.

I'll check out SZO, but I'm not as concerned about the art of strategery (as the Prez puts it) as understanding the nuts and bolts of what the game does and how to make it do what you want. Perhaps that is the kind of articles they have there, but I'll have to quit posting to check that out...

Is it Father's day yet?

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/11/2006 2:11:06 PM

Banquet

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Good luck getting the game - you've shown better self restraint than I managed! Nice post too.. made me chuckle

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/13/2006 8:16:04 AM

Bloodybucket28th

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Ok, I've read some strategy articles (thanks again for the links) and now feel like like I have some understanding of the game--I'll probably get the manual printed out when I get it so hopefully, after some study I will then have a clearer idea of why I am getting my butt kicked all over the map.

One thing that I have read in a few places is that the scenarios vary a great deal in quality...but much like a teenager who has broken in to the liquor cabinet for the for the first time, I'm afraid that my uneducated tastes will not be able to tell the difference between a fine single malt and that cool lookiing bottle with the train on the label.

Is there a place where scenarios are reviewed by users (something like "the scenario depot" for Battlefront's Combat Mission series?

At first glance, it seems that there is a preponderance of scenarios at the higher end of the size and complexity scale (what a surprise, wargamers gravitating towards massive theater level simulations with a lot of counters, who'd a thunk that?) and fewer small scenarios.

I'd guess there are a couple of reasons for this, one being that designing a TAOW scenario is probably a farly daunting task and who wants to be known as the author of the who nailed the battle for Schmidt when you could win fame and fortune as the guy who did the whole ETO?

I know it's the OPERATIONAL art of war, not the TACTICAL art of war, but there does seem to be a lot of effort expended on making the game work at theater level, and not much on making it work on company level? Can any of the fifty pound brains educate me as to why?

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/13/2006 10:44:33 AM

liuzg150181

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These two articles regarding Rear Area Security and Guerilla units might help:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/articles.php?p=137&page=1
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/articles.php?p=79&page=1

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/13/2006 5:15:58 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket

One thing that I have read in a few places is that the scenarios vary a great deal in quality...but much like a�teenager who has broken in to the liquor cabinet for the for the first time, I'm afraid that my uneducated tastes will not be able to tell the difference between a fine single malt and that cool lookiing bottle with the train on the label.

If you'll enjoy the two just the same, does it matter?

quote:

I know it's the OPERATIONAL art of war, not the TACTICAL art of war, but there does seem to be a lot of effort expended on making the game work at theater level, and not much on making it work on company level?

Well, even at 2.5km/hex company level is usually too small. Most Western Europe or North Africa scenarios at that scale use battalions to avoid unit congestion.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/14/2006 5:04:17 AM

Bloodybucket28th

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Golden D,

Two good points. I think that I wouldn't know the difference between a good and poor scenario until I had played it, and I'd like to get a good impression of the game at it's best off the bat.

As to scale, I guess what I was looking for was a smaller scenario with less counter density, regardless of scale. I guessed that might happen at the Bn/Co level, but it could happen at any level, depending on scale. The Korea scenario in the old demo is at the upper limit of what I'd like to deal with starting out, and it seems to me that there really isn't a demand (or at least there hasn't been production) of a lot of smaller scenarios. I'll freely admit that I have no idea how TOAW would handle a division scale Bulge scenario, or a Bn/Co level scenario of the defense of Wiltz. With the scale having a 2.5 Klick minimum, it might well be that a smaller Bulge scenario would mean sticking to Regimental level but only covering a portion of the battlefield.

I'm looking forward to finding out...turns out that I am going to be getting TAOW for dad's day.

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/14/2006 3:16:58 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket

As to scale, I guess what I was looking for was a smaller scenario with less counter density, regardless of scale.� I guessed that might happen at the Bn/Co level, but it could happen at any level, depending on scale.� The Korea scenario in the old demo is at the upper limit of what I'd like to deal with starting out, and it seems to me that there really isn't a demand (or at least there hasn't been production) of a lot of smaller scenarios. I'll freely admit that I have no idea how TOAW would handle a division scale Bulge scenario, or a Bn/Co level scenario of the defense of Wiltz.� With the scale having a 2.5 Klick minimum, it might well be that a smaller Bulge scenario would mean sticking to Regimental level but only covering a portion of the battlefield.

You should try searching the Rugged Defence scenario archive and sorting by complexity. That'll give you lots of suitable scenarios.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/14/2006 4:25:46 PM

hank

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TBB ... I look forward to your posts ... keep them coming ... you have a great way of expressing your sense of humor that makes me ROFLMAO.

... me too ... a newbie I am

Hank

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/15/2006 4:06:38 AM

henri511

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For newbies (and even for rusty old TOAW players like me) I highly recommend the tutorial scenarios. There is a readme that says in which order they should be played. Last night it took me all evening to go through the 16 pages of the "anonymous" scenario, but man did I ever learn a lot of stuff. OK, it's all in the manual, but sometimes the information there is so dense that I miss a lot

. For instance I had missed the flanking penalties,and I still can't find in the manual where it says that HQs have to be dug in to support an attack.

That scenario text is a model of clarity and my heartiest congratulations to the person who wrote the accompanying text that sells out exactly what do do with which unit and WHY.

You can either print out the instructions or alt-tab between the game and the tutorial text. The former is preferable if your memory is no beter than mine: as soon as I alt-tab back into the game, I have forgotten whether it is the 2nd piece of the 3rd battalion of the 4th infantry division on hes 4-3 that I have to move to hex 6-4, or the HQ of the 1st battalion of the 3rd infantry division on hex 5-4 that I have to move to hex 4-3. If you make a mistake you might have to restart froma saved game, so I found it a lot easier when I had the paper right in front of my eyes

Henri

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/15/2006 7:23:29 AM

GreenDestiny

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Or you could resize the window of both of them to fit on the screen at the same time.

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/15/2006 8:41:06 AM

Bloodybucket28th

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Good advice, I plan on digging in to the tutorials as soon as I can. I'm with you, even though it looks like you can pop up a couple of windows and have the manual and the game running, I think I'm going to have the manual printed out.

For one thing, it lets me study when I can't be on the computer (and boy, if you think a woman can get mad if you spend all your time on the computer, just you wait until you turn it off AT LAST and crawl in to the sack with the manual!)

For another, even if the searchable PDF manual is a lot better than what was available before, something as deep as TOAW just kind of needs a printed manual. It just seems right.

The Rugged Defense scenario section does seem to be the closest thing to an online collection of scenarios that have been rated for complexity and time period. I just wish there was a way for a sap like me to read some comments for each one left by you TOAW gurus.

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/15/2006 2:49:33 PM

pvthudson01

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I just play the Korean and Tannenberg scenarios over and over till I get it. I like the World War 1 scenarios because the units are not as complex as say Vietnam or more modern ones

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/17/2006 12:34:15 AM

Catch21

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As an aside IMO this isn't a game for the faint-hearted in any way. You need to be a fairly dedicated wargamer and the learning curve is high angle (think Stuka roll and you will know what I mean). I bought it bargain basement as a remnant (early version) and tried it when I got home, then ditched it as too complex and only came back to it a year later when I had some extra time on my hands. It was only then I realized what a masterpiece it was.

Worth its weight in gold if you have the intelligence, dedication, energy, time and really enjoying wargaming. It is AH Anzio, TRC and any other 1900+ wargame you maybe ever had (SPI, GDW anyone) in a box. And if you can't find the scenario you want among the 100s out there, you can build it yourself.

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/17/2006 6:59:19 AM

Bloodybucket28th

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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

As an aside IMO this isn't a game for the faint-hearted in any way.

Ouch, I'm in trouble. I'm afraid that I qualify as lily livered, if not outright faint-hearted. At least wobbly.

quote:

Worth its weight in gold if you have the intelligence, dedication, energy, time and really enjoying wargaming.

Uh-oh.

quote:

It is AH Anzio, TRC and any other 1900+ wargame you maybe ever had (SPI, GDW anyone) in a box. And if you can't find the scenario you want among the 100s out there, you can build it yourself.

AHA! I knew that there had to be a ray of hope in that post! While I may not have the heart of Brave Sir Robin, or the intellect, dedication and energy of a common stone found in any field, and my time is mostly consumed with work, the wife, and the results of time with the wife ("Daddy, can I use the computer to play Lego Star Wars?") I do recognize the motivational value of the wargame as crack, and my desire for a quality fix might see me through the learning curve trial.

As to scenario design, perhaps once I proceed to the point where I can watch the PO make moves without throwing a tantrum, I will apply my efforts to using TOAW as a tool to solve some of the important riddles that have vexed military minds for decades, such as "What if Pancho Villa had a Panzer Division? ".

That ought to keep me busy.

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/17/2006 7:19:38 AM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket
As to scenario design, perhaps once I proceed to the point where I can watch the PO make moves without throwing a tantrum, I will apply my efforts to using TOAW as a tool to solve some of the important riddles that have vexed military minds for decades, such as "What if Pancho Villa had a Panzer Division? ".

When you do get started on that scenario, keep in mind that I've already reserved the name for this alt-history/fantasy scenario setting. It's called "Black Jack, Shellacqued!"

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RE: TAOW III for Dummies - 6/17/2006 6:57:26 PM

Captain Cruft

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I was in something like the same boat as Mr Bucket. Trying to work out where to start ... Digesting the manual is just too much in one go.

Well, after mucking about with a couple of small scenarios (and trying the old Korea demo some time ago) my brain was not really getting anywhere, so I decided to be a fool and downloaded and imported Drang nach Osten (available at Rugged Defense). Amazingly, this was worked and my brain cells have now triggered! I think the reason is that is so big and so complicated (and involves countless repetition) that it kind of forces you to notice everything. For example, in my first turn I only got one combat round. Such a vast wastage of my 1000 odd units potential certainly make me sit up and pay attention. Look at the "time expended" in the attack dialog, idiot!

Although DnO is very definitely a PBEM only scenario, I am playing through it against the PO purely in order to learn the mechanics of this superb game. Besides which, I just love cruising around the vast map in zoom out mode ;)

< Message edited by Captain Cruft -- 6/17/2006 6:58:08 PM >

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