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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC

 
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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 6:57:33 PM   
blastpop


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quote:

I just got a chance to look at Heroes of Might and Magic V.
Man that is one graphically impressive evolution.
But, is it fair to expect a wargame maker to compete with a game that goes from being HOMM1 to HOMM5 with several major evolutions in look?


From the reviews I read, it mostly the same game under the hood, at least in terms of what it does. Sure there are changes and variations- the upgrade there is the eye candy.

I think a better evolution for computer wargames is the improvement at this time in ease of playability and more intuitive interfaces. While its a different genre, World of Warcraft has an interface in which you can immediately start playing without reading any rules. While some may think that may be extreme for a computer wargame and currently is-it is at the least a useful goal for any game designer. You may or may not like WoW, its interface system is worthing of holding up under the light for evaluation for what such an elegant interface can do for a game. WoW has a lot of depth under the hood and only becomes apparent when you want it or need it.

In my opinion better interfaces will allow designers to add depth to their designs. It seems to me that currently many games the interface is added only after the game is designed and not so much an integral part of the design process. Consequently the entire package can appear to be less than coherent.


(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 31
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 6:58:26 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

No, it is because wargamers are content to play 80s style games or they think things cannot get any better.

The last few years I think has shattered that notion.
With games like the Panther Games series, Combat Mission, Take Command and some games coming down the pipe.

All of those have radical new ideas and new designs and Combat Mission and Take Command have very pretty graphics and all three you can pick up and start playing in 10 minutes due to the wonderful interface and logical decisions that treat the games like games and not Windows 3.1 programs.

So I refuse to believe the notion that because budgets and staffs are small that we cannot get high quality games. Some companies has shown that to be a bogus notion.


Word!!

Absolutely true.

BTW as regards "0,1 to 1%" number I think it is not correct. I faintly remember seeing the number of over 100.000 copies sold, for TOAW1 only, and while it was still going strong. (The data comes from someone from Talonsoft or Norm himself.) If that number is (was) correct then I'd take a wild guess and say all TOAW editions, mission packs, etc etc sold well over 300.000 copies, which is 2% of Half Life's 15 mil.

Oleg


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Post #: 32
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 7:55:56 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

The Panther games series is operational. Unit scale can get pretty small but it is operatioanl.
It is also the best wargame engine I have ever used.
Very fresh and quite amazing.


Took a look at this company. It strikes me that they're doing exactly the same thing you accuse HPS of- repeatedly re-selling the same engine tweaked for different battles. The only difference is that they haven't been doing it as long. I don't see any mention of a scenario editor here.

Anyway, it is good to see a game breaking away from the constraints imposed by boardgames. There are a lot of good, innovative ideas here. Unfortunately my experience with Paradox games tells me that the real time approach makes multiplayer if not actually impossible, certainly very tedious.

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Post #: 33
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 7:58:51 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

BTW as regards "0,1 to 1%" number I think it is not correct. I faintly remember seeing the number of over 100.000 copies sold, for TOAW1 only, and while it was still going strong. (The data comes from someone from Talonsoft or Norm himself.) If that number is (was) correct then I'd take a wild guess and say all TOAW editions, mission packs, etc etc sold well over 300.000 copies, which is 2% of Half Life's 15 mil.


The subsequent releases of TOAW were less popular than Volume I, to my understanding.

In any case, 2% is still not a lot.

_____________________________

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"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
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Post #: 34
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 8:03:18 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
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Status: offline 		My interest in Panthers Games is solely based on how I am very pleased with how they made the first game.

I want CotA based solely on how much I liked HttR. I was also quite happy to hear they plan to release several follow on titles.

So in that respect, I guess, if someone likes the design, they'll want more. I suspect each title will evolve some at the core.

I've been impressed with how far the game design has come from TAO2 through KP, BiN and BiI from SSG. It could be said it all looks the same, but clearly, the game design has evolved.

Last comment. I have never thought of HttR as operational. I usually think of operational as being a game that encompasses most or all of a theater of war.
I prefer to think of HttR as tactical, even if it's not about driving separate vehicles around.

< Message edited by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -- 6/13/2006 8:05:06 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 8:28:01 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Anyway, it is good to see a game breaking away from the constraints imposed by boardgames. There are a lot of good, innovative ideas here. Unfortunately my experience with Paradox games tells me that the real time approach makes multiplayer if not actually impossible, certainly very tedious.


COTA is THE BEST currently available wargaming engine for operational level battles. Period. TOAW is (glorious) past, COTA is the future, no doubt about it, only questions are when will the majority of people notice it, and how fast relatively small Panther team can produce new games, scenarios, content etc.

Scenario editor is available, as is the map editor, but it's usability is limited by included "estabs" which are not user editable (yet, there are some changes planned regarding this but I won't comment on that). Basically, this means that player is able to construct his own scenarios, but only using the "estabs" (TOE and OOB) provided with the game.

Multiplayer is very possible and lots of fun, but it's certainly a world apart from PBEM-based TOAW play. I remain huge fan of PBEM (suits my lifestyle ) but COTA's pausable continuous time and overall system are so clearly superior to anything else. Whether one is ready to jump from PBEM to direct online play to experience playing that system vs otzher humans is a question everyone must answer for himself.

Incidentally, I would dare say even Norm himself took the "COTA way" with his Distant Guns - excelent, again real-time based game, kinda like COTA on sea (and in 3D )

O.

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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 8:42:57 PM   
MarcA


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From: England
Status: offline 		PzC interests me because they have well developed scenarios and excellent maps and OOB's. The combat system is also well grounded and in many many hours of play has only provided an eyebrow raising result once.

TOAW interests me partly bacuase of it's scope but also because of its editor anf flexiility.

And not wanting to get to far off-topic the forthcoming Combined Arms: WWII looks like a very intersting concept in gaming with its multiplayer facility.



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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 8:46:09 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

COTA is THE BEST currently available wargaming engine for operational level battles. Period. TOAW is (glorious) past, COTA is the future, no doubt about it, only questions are when will the majority of people notice it, and how fast relatively small Panther team can produce new games, scenarios, content etc.

Scenario editor is available, as is the map editor, but it's usability is limited by included "estabs" which are not user editable (yet, there are some changes planned regarding this but I won't comment on that). Basically, this means that player is able to construct his own scenarios, but only using the "estabs" (TOE and OOB) provided with the game.


So it's sharply limited in its scope? So, as a designer, I should keep working with TOAW, where I have complete freedom of subject matter and of scale?

quote:

Multiplayer is very possible and lots of fun, but it's certainly a world apart from PBEM-based TOAW play. I remain huge fan of PBEM (suits my lifestyle ) but COTA's pausable continuous time and overall system are so clearly superior to anything else. Whether one is ready to jump from PBEM to direct online play to experience playing that system vs otzher humans is a question everyone must answer for himself.


I've played PCT multiplayer with Europa Universalis and Victoria. I didn't really enjoy either very much because it was either frantic or drearily slow. However both games work reasonably well against the AI. If the Panther Games site's claims about the quality of the AI are accurate, then I guess one of their games will be going on my Christmas list.

quote:

Incidentally, I would dare say even Norm himself took the "COTA way" with his Distant Guns - excelent, again real-time based game, kinda like COTA on sea (and in 3D )


3D graphics turn me off big time.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/13/2006 8:48:16 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 9:56:52 PM   
RedMike


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Status: offline 		HEY!!

You guys are way off the point here. I don't want to air out old laundry about game company business models. I've been there, done all that. I want to know about the tactical differences, techniques of play, bewteen PzC/MC and TOAW.

For example, how is defensive fire handled ? Opportunity fire ? That sort of thing.

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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 9:59:59 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike

Not to start a war or anything, but I'm a long time player of HPS campaigns series and unfamiliar with TOAW. I just took the plunge and find the game very enjoyable. I'd like to know why one would prefer TOAW over HPS stuff or vice versa.



I would rather have TOAW 3 over any one (or indeed several) Panzer Campaigns titles simply because of its flexibility and superior AI. However, the HPS games do score in one very important respect for me; you feel (in a wargamerish sort of way) that you might actually be commanding soldiers. TOAW, for all its plus points, always had, and still has, a feeling rather too much like playing chess for my taste.

Games like HTTR, COTA and the Prosim ATF series completely escape that feeling, and I agree that they are likely to be the future for the hobby.



quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


So it's sharply limited in its scope? So, as a designer, I should keep working with TOAW, where I have complete freedom of subject matter and of scale?


Depends what you want to design. A game as flexible as TOAW has its advantages, but if another game is more limited it may also tend to yield better results within the area is was designed to cover, as much can be abandoned and consequently more relevant detail and additional features included. However, it is pretty obvious that if you want to design a Velike Luki scenario then a game designed around the Aegean is unlikely to be a good choice!

quote:

I've played PCT multiplayer with Europa Universalis and Victoria. I didn't really enjoy either very much because it was either frantic or drearily slow. However both games work reasonably well against the AI. If the Panther Games site's claims about the quality of the AI are accurate, then I guess one of their games will be going on my Christmas list.


"PCT" is just a label, much like "RTS" is. The Paradox games have about as much relevance to HTTR/COTA as Warcraft does to Close Combat.


< Message edited by Hertston -- 6/13/2006 10:23:36 PM >

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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 10:16:23 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike
For example, how is defensive fire handled ? Opportunity fire ? That sort of thing.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "defensive fire". In TOAW III, attackers and defenders fire at each other in combats initiated by the attacker. Both sides contribute supporting fire, from cooperative support assets, e.g., artillery, naval and air units within range of the combat. As bombardment occurs before direct AP and AT fire within a combat, it can often cause attacking units to break off their attacks, before they get a chance to engage and fire.

Opportunity fire is represented by disengagement attacks against moving enemy units which try to leave, or move through empty hexes in friendly zones of control. Also there are air interdiction attacks which can strike at moving enemy units, and can make semi-random attacks against spotted enemy units during his turn.

(in reply to RedMike)
Post #: 41
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 10:22:12 PM   
RedMike


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike
For example, how is defensive fire handled ? Opportunity fire ? That sort of thing.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "defensive fire". In TOAW III, attackers and defenders fire at each other in combats initiated by the attacker. Both sides contribute supporting fire, from cooperative support assets, e.g., artillery, naval and air units within range of the combat. As bombardment occurs before direct AP and AT fire within a combat, it can often cause attacking units to break off their attacks, before they get a chance to engage and fire.

Opportunity fire is represented by disengagement attacks against moving enemy units which try to leave, or move through empty hexes in friendly zones of control. Also there are air interdiction attacks which can strike at moving enemy units, and can make semi-random attacks against spotted enemy units during his turn.


Yeah, I personally think I like the way TOAW handles it better than PzC. I find defensive fire in PzC/MC tedious to say the least.

I'm still perusing the TOAW manual getting the hang of things. How does one coordinate, or plan, an attack in TOAW ? There's an option to plan an attack.



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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 10:45:40 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike
I'm still perusing the TOAW manual getting the hang of things. How does one coordinate, or plan, an attack in TOAW ? There's an option to plan an attack.

Sections 10.5.1/2/3, and much of Section 13, (from 13.6 onward) contain important information on combat, while 16.4 shows the Attack Planning Window.

Admittedly, a lot to read and absorb, but after you've walked through it a few times, it should become second nature.

(in reply to RedMike)
Post #: 43
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/13/2006 11:01:10 PM   
henri511

 

Posts: 83
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Status: offline 		I appreciate all wargames, and in addition to TOAWIII, I bought in the past few weeks Battles in Italy, Battles in Normandy, The First blitzkrieg, not to mention HOMMV and others. And I haven't played the last 3 to any worthwhile extent yet, except for HOMMV...

What I DO find missing is good small scenarios with plenty of maneuver. that is why I started the "Nomonhan: a bridge too poor" thread that sort of went off the scale. I hope someone will upgrade that scenario in the near future.

Although I appreciate the large scenarios, I just can't play them because by the time I get to the 500th unit, I have forgotten what I did with the 203rd and all the ones before. With TOAW, this is compounded by having to take into account the need to conserve movement for future phases, which often means moving the same unit multiple times during the same move.

Although this is a bit less bad with PC, there are still usually too many units on he map. As someone mentioned, you can alleviate this to some extent by breaking up your force into "chunks", but you still have to move 500 units on every turn and remember what and where you moved each unit.

I bet Rommel never had the problem of saying "Now why the hell did I move the 21st Panzers there in the first place?..."

What I would really like is a modern version of War in Russia, where the divisions were incorporated into Corps that were mostly the maneuver units.

BTW, for sure I will buy the updated version of the East Front/West Front series. I hope that they will add flanking fire, the most important missing feature of that series.

Henri

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 44
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 12:21:03 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
So it's sharply limited in its scope? So, as a designer, I should keep working with TOAW, where I have complete freedom of subject matter and of scale?


COTA editor is sharply limited in scope, indeed - but that's for NOW. As I said there are plans to "expand" the "estab" philosophy, to maintain just 3-4 separate estabs (as opposed to 1 game = 1 estab philosophy). If this plan comes to fruitition (and don't ask me about details) that means that using "West Front estab" that comes with the Bulge game, you would be able to build Norway scenario, for example. I am not the right man to comment on this, but you get the idea.

If you want to work as designer - you have even better choice - you do what I did, you join Panther scenario development team(s) (DDTs) and volunteer to work on well researched, hi quality scenarios with a dedicated group of people, in an environment where your scenario work will be recognised Had you been little faster you could have reworked your Leros scenario into interesting battle for COTA engine.

It's still not too late - North Africa is planned as next in the Med-Africa sub series - I am member of the NA DDT, I am sure you'd enjoy working with me developing scenarios..... You'd have to turn back your TDG membership card though LOL

quote:

I've played PCT multiplayer with Europa Universalis and Victoria.


Totally, and I mean TOTALLY wrong comparison. COTA plays *nothing* like the mentioned two. BTW EU and Victoria are not quite to my taste neither.

I wasn't too hot on PCT concept at first, but once you try it, there's no going back - all turn based games seem..... too easy, too unrealistic, too artificial. Warfare IS continuous time - and once you experience a game that does this right, without compromising realism, you can only say "that's it!".

quote:

3D graphics turn me off big time.


Big battleships in glorious Norm's 3D in DG give me *hard on* (now why is there no smiley with a hard on on the list if smileys here? )

O.



< Message edited by Oleg Mastruko -- 6/14/2006 12:22:25 AM >

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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 12:56:17 AM   
RedMike


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

The Panther games series is operational. Unit scale can get pretty small but it is operatioanl.
It is also the best wargame engine I have ever used.
Very fresh and quite amazing.


Took a look at this company. It strikes me that they're doing exactly the same thing you accuse HPS of- repeatedly re-selling the same engine tweaked for different battles. The only difference is that they haven't been doing it as long. I don't see any mention of a scenario editor here.

Anyway, it is good to see a game breaking away from the constraints imposed by boardgames. There are a lot of good, innovative ideas here. Unfortunately my experience with Paradox games tells me that the real time approach makes multiplayer if not actually impossible, certainly very tedious.


Airborne Assualt engine is in my opinion best operational level wargame available...period. Yes it has a scenario editor, yes it has a map editor. No it is not quite the same engine from last in series. Definitely improved system. Updated UI, AI, supply system etc. Does not leave the cookie cutter impression at all.Worth every penny.

Now back to TOAW manual...



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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 1:04:46 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

COTA editor is sharply limited in scope, indeed - but that's for NOW. As I said there are plans to "expand" the "estab" philosophy, to maintain just 3-4 separate estabs (as opposed to 1 game = 1 estab philosophy). If this plan comes to fruitition (and don't ask me about details) that means that using "West Front estab" that comes with the Bulge game, you would be able to build Norway scenario, for example. I am not the right man to comment on this, but you get the idea.


Well I'll reserve judgement until this feature actually appears.

quote:

If you want to work as designer - you have even better choice - you do what I did, you join Panther scenario development team(s) (DDTs) and volunteer to work on well researched, hi quality scenarios with a dedicated group of people, in an environment where your scenario work will be recognised Had you been little faster you could have reworked your Leros scenario into interesting battle for COTA engine.


At a guess, the "estab" for this wouldn't be available, since COTA is a 1940-1 game and Leros is set in late 1943.

quote:

I am sure you'd enjoy working with me developing scenarios.....


I remain sceptical.

quote:

Totally, and I mean TOTALLY wrong comparison. COTA plays *nothing* like the mentioned two. BTW EU and Victoria are not quite to my taste neither.


Don't get me wrong- I love those two games. I just can't stand to play them multiplayer.

I don't see why the PCT concept will be any less inappropriate for multiplayer in a different game. You will still have to wait around while the other guy does stuff and, worse, in this kind of environment if he pauses the game for a long period of time you KNOW that he's up to something serious.

quote:

Big battleships in glorious Norm's 3D in DG give me *hard on* (now why is there no smiley with a hard on on the list if smileys here?


I suppose ships look cool in 3D, but most of the action in 20th century naval warfare is so spread out that the 3D engine just seems like an excessive investment of time and energy.

_____________________________

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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Post #: 47
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 2:09:37 AM   
ralphtricky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike
I'm still perusing the TOAW manual getting the hang of things. How does one coordinate, or plan, an attack in TOAW ? There's an option to plan an attack.

You need to have advanced rules turn on too.

(in reply to RedMike)
Post #: 48
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 2:13:39 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
At a guess, the "estab" for this wouldn't be available, since COTA is a 1940-1 game and Leros is set in late 1943.


Estab dude is usually ready to accomodate wishes from scenario designers, so he might have as well added the needed data for your scenario to the estab file (I don't know really, nor do I care, I am just speculating )

quote:

Don't get me wrong- I love those two games. I just can't stand to play them multiplayer.

I don't see why the PCT concept will be any less inappropriate for multiplayer in a different game. You will still have to wait around while the other guy does stuff and, worse, in this kind of environment if he pauses the game for a long period of time you KNOW that he's up to something serious.


You don't have to wait for anything. Both players enter orders, and watch the action unfold, in real time. Everything happens "as we speak". Both players can regulate the speed of the game (stop, normal speed, fast, extra fast), and the game plays in slower of two players' settings. Games usually play in normal or fast speed - first you both enter initial orders and start the game, then it usually plays in normal or fast speed.

Stopping the game, unless you have to go away from the keyboard, is considered bad manners and players do not do it without consulting their opponent first. If you need to tweak the orders or issue new ones, you reduce the speed to "normal" and do what you have to do. Events unfold all the time - it's like watching animated history map in some documentary, only you regulate the speed of the reproduction, and action on the screen.

quote:


I suppose ships look cool in 3D, but most of the action in 20th century naval warfare is so spread out that the 3D engine just seems like an excessive investment of time and energy.


Well, as FJ said, if you're content that your wargames look like Windows 3.1 applications, then of course 3D seems like "excessive investment". I do not share your opinion though.

As for naval warfare being "spread out" I would reserve that judgement for until the game engine reaches battles and wars that were actually fought "over the horizon" (which won't happen anytime soon). For as long as the engine stays firmly in the domain of "what you see is what you shoot at" I'd say it works - well, almost perfectly, and 3D has definite, and very realistic influence on the gameplay (ie it's NOT just eye candy). In other words, 3D helps in representing some of the real world problems admirals of the time faced themselves.

And yes ships look very cool.

O.



< Message edited by Oleg Mastruko -- 6/14/2006 2:17:03 AM >

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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 2:50:43 AM   
Bossy573


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

COTA is THE BEST currently available wargaming engine for operational level battles. Period. TOAW is (glorious) past, COTA is the future, no doubt about it, only questions are when will the majority of people notice it, and how fast relatively small Panther team can produce new games, scenarios, content etc.


Hey Oleg, I know this is OT, but what is so special about COTA (and HTTR)? Frankly, I've been lurking around those boards a bit and that game seems to just grab people and pull them in. I'm hesitant to put some money down as 1.I already have more games than I can reasonably expect to play in the next decade and 2. if I don't dig it I wont play it and there will be $40 down the drain. I bought WITP but I took one look at the manual and new I would never have enough time to give it a fair shot. I guess that's why TOAW is so appealing, I already know the system and I can just drop in and play competently. Is COTA/ HTTR like that?

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RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 3:33:01 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bossy573
Hey Oleg, I know this is OT, but what is so special about COTA (and HTTR)? Frankly, I've been lurking around those boards a bit and that game seems to just grab people and pull them in. I'm hesitant to put some money down as 1.I already have more games than I can reasonably expect to play in the next decade and 2. if I don't dig it I wont play it and there will be $40 down the drain. I bought WITP but I took one look at the manual and new I would never have enough time to give it a fair shot. I guess that's why TOAW is so appealing, I already know the system and I can just drop in and play competently. Is COTA/ HTTR like that?


It certainly needs some time to learn and adapt but once you cover the basic principles it's easy to play. CPU takes off the enormous load of micromanagement from the player. It is far less time demanding than WITP.

It's best to go to dedicated COTA forum to learn more

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(in reply to Bossy573)
Post #: 51
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 4:04:45 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Distant guns is one of the best looking wargames to come out in years. Not only in graphics but in detail, scope, ease of play and overall design.
From the early look of it it seems to be one of those classics that just screams well made in every possible way.

And it is the product of two old school wargame developers with limited resources and limited money and teams.

If everything works as planned I think everyone else will no longer have an excuse for their games to look and play like crap and hide behind the notion that they do not have the money or personel to come out with high quality games.

As for COTA, it is only the third game in the series.

Panzer Campaigns has what?...3 dozen or so releases over the last 11 years?

I don't think the system requirments have budged since the Windows 95 days.
I can see why people like the series, it is just not my cup of tea and I expect more from my games these days.
I just wish I had the balls to make the same game 30 or so times and charge $50 for it.

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(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 52
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 4:59:33 AM   
Arckon

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 12/19/2004
Status: offline 		Reading through this thread it has struck me that;

1/ All are wargaming fans (duh)
2/ As wargaming fans all appear to have bought multiple products from different designers/companies
3/ Buying different products is as it should be as all have strength and weaknesses, and provide many hours of enjoyment from your purchasing $$'s

Finally Red Mike glad a couple of people are answering your questions now, as yes this did get rather off topic for what you were wanting to know. Wish I could answer your question but I am new to TOAW III.

I am currently playing (no particular order):

SSG's 'Decisive Battles' vs AI
HPS 'ACW' vs PBEM
Panthers 'HTTR' vs AI (Learning)
Matrix Ed 'TOAW III" vs AI (Learning)

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 53
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 5:56:27 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike

How about tactically ? How does one playout compared to the other ?... I'd like to hear something about style of play between the two systems.
RedMike...out


I'll try Red Mike.

The biggest difference between the two systems is that PzC is IGO-UGO with the AI defending in your turn whereas TOAW is IGO-IGO-IGO-no more time left-UGO.

In other words in PzC you're able to move and fight instantaneously. The only hiccup to your plans before you push the fire or resolve assault button will be the AI roaring with ad nauseum defensive fire - or possible air interdiction.

In TOAW you must pre-plan all your combats. You may take air interdiction fire too as you move but until you press resolve combat, nothing else will happen. This can be enjoyable or frustrating given your tastes.

To elaborate - in TOAW you can't necessarily move and fight with every unit. Say you have sector of your line and create 2 attacks by assigning units to fight. If you press resolve combat before assigning attacks or other moves along the remainder of the front, you will use up simulated time and possibly only have 30% of your turn remaining to do everything else you wish. This -can- seem illogical. In PzC you get to move and fight with everything you desire until fate or action points stop a unit from continuing on.

In PzC Smolensk 41 for example, attack and fight from north to south, see your combat outcomes before fighting or moving more. In a TOAW scenario of the similar camaign , if you're impatient and like to see what your combats at Mogilev will produce - set them up and press "go". You may find that the turn ends there and then before you get a chance to do anything else!

In TOAW if you want to attack along a whole front, you need the patience to set everything up before resolving combat. This can nicely simulate some sort of "lack of command and control" - but it can be equally frustrating, confusing or boring depending on your tastes.

That's just one big difference between the two systems.

Adam.

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 6/14/2006 5:58:15 AM >

(in reply to RedMike)
Post #: 54
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 6:11:59 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike

How about tactically ? How does one playout compared to the other ?...
RedMike...out


Let's try another difference.

In PzC on the attack, you assign units and fire, you apply artillery separately, you call in air support yet again separately. Very neat and ordered.

In TOAW the moment you order a unit to attack, a list of attack options greets you. Limited, ignore casualties etc. Another option allows you to "plan" the attack out in which case units (land, air and arty) in range can be clicked on to join the combat - much like the Decisive Battles system allows.

In TOAW doctrine can be set to automatically call supporting units from outside the battle who upon seeing an attack in progress will move up as best able and possibly reinforce.

There's some nice things going on in TOAW but it all in all gave me a feeling of disjointed. You can absorb yourself in this action quite easily as I once did when TOAW 1 first came out - but PzC is just smoother running a campaign. IF...

IF there was just some way to not have PzC's AI fire up to three times with every unit at anything that moves in front of it and there was a much more intuitive way to bring corps comprising battalions to the front - PzC would be THE perfect gaming system. As it is, without these changes - campaigns just take an enormous amount of time to play and my hat is always off to the grognards who master the art.

Adam.

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 55
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 8:22:58 AM   
Knu

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 1/31/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I actually enjoy HPS games very much, as I can run those games with an older computer. Also there is games/battles in their sortiment, which are not published in any of the games from any company. Like the American Civil War battles.

That series in my opinion is excellent and much better than Battleground series. I also don't understand the criticism, that HPS is milking an "old cow". In my eyes MatrixGames is doing the same, by re-publishing Battleground and Campaing series and more old games, like TOAW.

I probably will buy TOAW someday, just will wait to see the possible game ruining bugs. In the mean time I will plough my way through the Civil War battles.

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 56
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 9:06:58 AM   
RedMike


Posts: 1281
Joined: 3/14/2002
From: Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike

How about tactically ? How does one playout compared to the other ?...
RedMike...out


Let's try another difference.

In PzC on the attack, you assign units and fire, you apply artillery separately, you call in air support yet again separately. Very neat and ordered.

In TOAW the moment you order a unit to attack, a list of attack options greets you. Limited, ignore casualties etc. Another option allows you to "plan" the attack out in which case units (land, air and arty) in range can be clicked on to join the combat - much like the Decisive Battles system allows.

In TOAW doctrine can be set to automatically call supporting units from outside the battle who upon seeing an attack in progress will move up as best able and possibly reinforce.

There's some nice things going on in TOAW but it all in all gave me a feeling of disjointed. You can absorb yourself in this action quite easily as I once did when TOAW 1 first came out - but PzC is just smoother running a campaign. IF...

IF there was just some way to not have PzC's AI fire up to three times with every unit at anything that moves in front of it and there was a much more intuitive way to bring corps comprising battalions to the front - PzC would be THE perfect gaming system. As it is, without these changes - campaigns just take an enormous amount of time to play and my hat is always off to the grognards who master the art.

Adam.


Thanks Adam, very informative comments. PzC defensive fire drives me bonkers!!



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Post #: 57
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 9:12:54 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knu

I actually enjoy HPS games very much, as I can run those games with an older computer. Also there is games/battles in their sortiment, which are not published in any of the games from any company. Like the American Civil War battles.

That series in my opinion is excellent and much better than Battleground series. I also don't understand the criticism, that HPS is milking an "old cow".


Yes Knu, you are correct on all points.

As someone else rightly pointed out, using this theory Advanced Squad Leader had no right publishing fully priced modules to this day.

Glad you like the ACW games. I wrote the Getting Started manuals for Gettysburg, Penninsula and Shiloh

If you really want something enjoyable, buy HPS's "1776". Fully updated this is an absolute blast of a game in the musket era. HPS's "French and Indian Wars" is another class game for PBEM.

Adam.

(in reply to Knu)
Post #: 58
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 2:31:09 PM   
Bossy573


Posts: 363
Joined: 3/25/2005
From: Buffalo, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
It's best to go to dedicated COTA forum to learn more


I have but I guess I was looking to get a "feel" for the game before I buy it.

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Post #: 59
RE: Thoughts on TOAWIII vs HPS PzC/MC - 6/14/2006 3:41:16 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

You don't have to wait for anything. Both players enter orders, and watch the action unfold, in real time. Everything happens "as we speak". Both players can regulate the speed of the game (stop, normal speed, fast, extra fast), and the game plays in slower of two players' settings. Games usually play in normal or fast speed - first you both enter initial orders and start the game, then it usually plays in normal or fast speed.


Given that "normal" is the lowest level above stop, I can imagine the game would really drag at that speed.

quote:

Well, as FJ said, if you're content that your wargames look like Windows 3.1 applications, then of course 3D seems like "excessive investment". I do not share your opinion though.


I'm content with the way TOAW looks- and that's more or less unchanged from how it looked in 1998. But even in those far off days Talonsoft felt the need to put in a pseudo-3D view, which looks awful.

I'm not immune to aesthetic considerations. I'm just really not keen on 3D graphics.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
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Post #: 60
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