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Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/16/2006 8:54:45 PM   
henri511

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		I chose to play this scenario because of the low number of units and because the of remembrances of the board game Afrika Korps. When I played this scenario as the Germans, there was none of the ebb and flow of the real batttle, so I decided to see how it would go when the AI played both sides.

After 36 moves, the Germans still had not moved a single unit! (By this time in the real war, Rommel had already attacked Tobruk). The British were at least using their nearby units to take unoccupied territory, but the bulk of their forces stayed milling around Alexandria.

Whatdahell is going on? Is this an AI problem or a scenario problem. If a scenario problem, didn't anybody playtest the first few moves of this scenario before putting it in?

To paraphrase someone, "I have seen Afrika Korps, and lemme tell ya, you ain't no Afrika Korps!"

Henri
Post #: 1
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/16/2006 9:50:39 PM   
Chuck2


Posts: 830
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline 		I'm afraid to report that this scenario is PBEM-only. It was a common occurance in the late-COW period for scenario designers not to program the AI, especially with larger scenarios.

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RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/16/2006 9:51:20 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		LOL

<edited for decency>



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Post #: 3
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/16/2006 10:27:13 PM   
jbunnelle


Posts: 166
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: United States
Status: offline 		Being interested in PO only, I think the major problem with the PBEM scenarios is how they are flagged as such.  Ideally, I think they should have their own directory in the scenarios folder, with subdirectories by theater/era.  Either that, or put "(PBEM)" at the end of the scenario's file name.  Really sucks when I find a scenario I'd love to play against the AI and reading "PBEM only" somewhere in the scenario description. 

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 4
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/16/2006 10:34:28 PM   
henri511

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the scenario description that says that it is pbem only. Am I bliind?

Henri

PS No wonder I beat the stuffings out of the British as the Germans...

< Message edited by hen5ri -- 6/17/2006 12:34:49 AM >

(in reply to henri511)
Post #: 5
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/16/2006 10:57:54 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hen5ri

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the scenario description that says that it is pbem only. Am I bliind?

Henri

No, you are not blind. It was an oversight on our part.

Sorry, but that scenario is not PO enabled, and is designed for PBEM play only. It should have been noted in the scenario descriptions, but unfortunately, it was neglected.

A simple check to see if a scenario is enabled for PO play is to load the scenario in the scenario editor, and then choose the menu option "Deployment". Then click on some arbitrary units, and look down in the micromap display in the lower right-hand corner. If you see only a single objective point for the formation(s), then the scenario is not enabled to play as the PO.

If you only see a 1 for the formation, then it only has one (the minimum) objective point. Objective points will show up in the micromap as integer numbers ranging from 1 to 39. Generally, the more numbers you see, the more thought a scenario designer has put into trying to develop a working PO. If there is only one OP per formation, then the formations have no guidance as to where to position themselves, and will generally sit in place, doing nothing.


(in reply to henri511)
Post #: 6
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/16/2006 11:12:03 PM   
jungelsj_slith

 

Posts: 244
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		It seems like adding PO AI to each scenario would have been a really worthwhile feature for TAOW III.  It doesnt feel like a very professionally made product when a large number of scenarios aren't playable because of this.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 7
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/16/2006 11:53:48 PM   
Catch21

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 4/13/2006
From: Dublin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: molotov_billy
It seems like adding PO AI to each scenario would have been a really worthwhile feature for TAOW III. It doesnt feel like a very professionally made product when a large number of scenarios aren't playable because of this.

Adding PO AI just isn't possible, since many of the scenarios made were/are totally volunteer efforts.

Once you've mastered the PO in the scenarios that have it, I believe you will always find that a good human player is always going to be a far better opponent. Not to mention they can (unfortunately?) talk too. Take the plunge and maybe try PBEM. I guarantee you will never regret it.

_____________________________

Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

(in reply to jungelsj_slith)
Post #: 8
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 12:14:32 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: molotov_billy

It seems like adding PO AI to each scenario would have been a really worthwhile feature for TAOW III.  It doesnt feel like a very professionally made product when a large number of scenarios aren't playable because of this.

Worthwhile? I don't disagree, as long as you wouldn't mind paying $80.00 for the game and get it two years down the road, instead of today for $40. Adding PO functionability to a scenario takes a lot of planning, and playtesting, and is best managed by the person who designed the original scenario. The larger and longer scenarios, in particular, get exponentially more complex in terms of PO programming, and could take months to years to evaluate in playtesting.

(in reply to jungelsj_slith)
Post #: 9
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 2:24:26 AM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		While I would certainly have liked a PO AI for all scenarios, I can't fault Matrix for not doing that much heavy lifting. Hopefully, the original scenario designers will update their scenarios and most new scenarios will incorporate a PO AI. But as stated, the really big scenarios are probably best played against a living brain.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 10
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 2:52:43 AM   
wolflars

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		Implementing the PO for scenarios is a long and arduous process, I remember designing a few scenarios years ago and being very frustrated so I also cannot fault either Matrix or the original designers for not having PO in their designs.  However, it would be nice to have a easy to glance at "flag" as to which ones are PO playable .  While I agree that a human opponent is best I like to sharpen my claws on the PO, at least until I feel comfortable with TOAW's game engine again.

(in reply to sol_invictus)
Post #: 11
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 3:13:51 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wolflars
However, it would be nice to have a easy to glance at "flag" as to which ones are PO playable . 
In addition to the public "beta" patch that is currently available, and will shortly be made "official", we are working on a larger patch that will be released in another couple of months. When we do release that one, we will include a new scenario descriptions list, and the scenario briefings will have the information prominently displayed so that you can indeed tell at a glance whether the scenario is PO playable. Thanks for your understanding on the issue.

(in reply to wolflars)
Post #: 12
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 4:35:43 AM   
Johnus

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		Wouldn't it be easy and helpful to just post a list of which scenarios, not so noted, do not have a PO ??

(in reply to henri511)
Post #: 13
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 4:46:46 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Johnnie

Wouldn't it be easy and helpful to just post a list of which scenarios, not so noted, do not have a PO ??

It would be, if we had such a comprehensive list compiled. When we put out our first "real" patch in a couple of months, we'll include such a list. The public beta patch now up, is not the first "real" patch, but rather an "emergency" patch...

In the meantime...with the exception of the Balkans '12 scenario, I believe you can play any of the scenarios in the Classic TOAW against the PO, either side. You can also play any of Bob Cross's scenarios against the PO, either side. You can play Two Weeks in Normandy against the PO, either side. You can play the version of Anoymous Heroics that is in the Tutorials sub-folder against the Red PO, and the others there are either copies of, or derivatives of Classic TOAW scenarios, so they can be played against PO, either side. The others I can't personally vouch for, at the moment, and off the top of my head.

(in reply to Johnus)
Post #: 14
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 7:20:59 AM   
jungelsj_slith

 

Posts: 244
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Worthwhile? I don't disagree, as long as you wouldn't mind paying $80.00 for the game and get it two years down the road, instead of today for $40. Adding PO functionability to a scenario takes a lot of planning, and playtesting, and is best managed by the person who designed the original scenario. The larger and longer scenarios, in particular, get exponentially more complex in terms of PO programming, and could take months to years to evaluate in playtesting.


Make it an easier process.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 15
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 7:31:32 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: molotov_billy
Make it an easier process.


It's very easy to sit by the sidelines and throw peanuts, or to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. You want to flesh out exactly how you would "Make it an easier process?"

(in reply to jungelsj_slith)
Post #: 16
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 8:31:02 AM   
Bloodybucket28th


Posts: 130
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		While I have no clue as to how you could make enabling PO in a scenario an easier process, as to getting a list of scenarios that are rated  for complexity and solitaire suitability, that really does sound like a job for the community.  Rugged Defense has a good list of scenarios that are rated for complexity.  Here is an example of a "bullet synopsis" there.  While it gives some good info, and the blurb written by the designer goes in to much more detail about solitaire (he suggests you stick to the German side) and special rules, there isn't a way that I can see for the community to add ratings or reviews.




Belgium, Ardennes,
December 16, 1944,

Axis army of 187 units opposed to Allies army of 279 units
for a battle of complexity 1.28 at Battalion(II) level
on a 2.5 Km/Hex map
for 36 turns of Half Day each.



 
They also have a play history for the scenario, and other useful information.  It would be great (IMHO) if they also had a way for the community to add ratings for balance, PBEM use, solo use, and a short comment.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 17
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 8:32:28 AM   
geozero


Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Scenario design is a long and tedious labor...but I can see where the TOAW 3 may have some issues.  Taking the original scenarios and then adding 130 community created ones... giving a nice big 200+ scenarios to boast to the new incarnation does not in of itself make the game any better.

A gamer should not have to manually load the scenario into the editor to see whether or not it can be played solo. Asking the gamer to do this is not good PR because many people don;t know or want to know about the editor.  They don't buy the game to design scenarios...they buy the game to PLAY.  I think this concept has been lost, and the game is not just marketed to the grognard, scenario designing, arm chair general, wannabee.

Matrix did not have to wait months or years, nor charge $80 for this.  Just a simple way to let the gamer know if the scenario is playable or not.  I wonder just how many of those 130 scenarios are PBEM only. Not that that is a bad thing...it just doesn't come across IMO to the typical gamer as good PR.

After all, it is marketed as a new game and not a mega patch...

_____________________________

JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.

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Post #: 18
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 10:37:20 AM   
jungelsj_slith

 

Posts: 244
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Well said, geozero. I'll reply to Mr Jamiam tomorrow when I have a couple minutes to get my thoughts down. Hopefully this ends up being constructive.

(in reply to geozero)
Post #: 19
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 11:10:16 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: molotov_billy
Hopefully this ends up being constructive.

That would be appreciated. I look forward to your reply.

(in reply to jungelsj_slith)
Post #: 20
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 11:29:53 AM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero
A gamer should not have to manually load the scenario into the editor to see whether or not it can be played solo. Asking the gamer to do this is not good PR because many people don;t know or want to know about the editor. They don't buy the game to design scenarios...they buy the game to PLAY.


The nail gets struck directly on the head.

A little surprised here that PBEM scenarios are not flagged.



Ray (alias Lava)

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Post #: 21
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 3:49:51 PM   
Catch21

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 4/13/2006
From: Dublin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket
there isn't a way that I can see for the community to add ratings or reviews.

It's a good point. The Blitz site certainly allows for this. See http://209.164.73.216/scenarios/show_scenarios.php?game=21 for an example.

One lateral way into this is to maybe look at how much a scenario gets played. If you look at the stats, you can certainly tell that 2 Weeks in Normandy for example gets played a lot. The stats also give an idea of play balance. Again look at 2 Weeks in Normandy as an example.

Hope this helps.

_____________________________

Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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Post #: 22
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 6:27:14 PM   
Bloodybucket28th


Posts: 130
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		General Staff,

Thanks for the link!  It seems that there are several sites that have almost all the elements of a package that would allow the user to judge what scenarios are suitable for play against the PO, but none that quite do so up front.  This is understandable because most of these sites are dedicated to ladder play, and the earlier versions of TOAW had a more anemic version of "Elmer", making solo play a less important consideration.

I'm new here so I don't know the rules about mentioning (ahem) other company's products, but the "Scenario Depot" for the Combat Mission series seemed to have about the format that would work well here, IIRC. 

I think this is a classic case of no good deed going unpunished.  Matrix beefs up the PO, and then gets flak for not identifying what scenarios work well with it.  I can see how it might be unfair for us to ask Matrix to "rate" user made scenarios, and it might be better left to the community to do this.  On the other hand, since Matrix included the material with the game, some now feel it is now up to them to define, or even improve, the content of the scenarios.

I know that as a player (really a player in waiting, the mailman hasn't been kind to me yet) I would rather have the main focus of scenario identification and even production rest with the multitude of users, rather than the comparatively limited resources of the publisher, for the purely selfish reason that it is likely to deliver more gaming to me faster. 

If there was standard format in the scenario design that would include a place for the designer or poster to rate the scenario for solitaire play, this might help.


(in reply to Catch21)
Post #: 23
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 6:37:27 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline 		Simply adding PBEM to the title of all scenarios that can't be played against Elmer (as well as a note at the start of the scenario briefing for all scenarios that only have a PO for one side would solve this problem. 

(in reply to Bloodybucket28th)
Post #: 24
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 6:56:47 PM   
Vincenzo_Beretta


Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline 		To sum it up, are we really saying that if a game has 170 scenarios PO-capable it is a "professional effort", while if it has 200 scenarios with some of them PBEM only then it is "unprofessional"?

Before losing sight of the land, it is worth noticing that *additions* never make a product worse, if they do not break something already existing.

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Post #: 25
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 7:10:57 PM   
geozero


Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		With approx 130 new scenarios it should have taken a beta tester about 3-4 hours to load each in editor, locate the info, and identify which were  PO and which were PBEM only.  Why this was not done is beyond me...

quote:

  In the meantime...with the exception of the Balkans '12 scenario, I believe you can play any of the scenarios in the Classic TOAW against the PO, either side. You can also play any of Bob Cross's scenarios against the PO, either side. You can play Two Weeks in Normandy against the PO, either side. You can play the version of Anoymous Heroics that is in the Tutorials sub-folder against the Red PO, and the others there are either copies of, or derivatives of Classic TOAW scenarios, so they can be played against PO, either side. The others I can't personally vouch for, at the moment, and off the top of my head.


Can someone officially give a definitive answer as to whether or not the new AI updates will allow you to play the old scenarios correctly?  Something tells me that I doubt many of the original designers are going to go back and re-tweak their scenarios...at least not for a long time.

Same question posed to the designers of the 130 other scenarios being included.

Lastly, I think it would be tremendous if Matrix could put some sort of scenario depot online, as well as other data and tools to aid the community in future designs and conversions of older scenarios. 

Please remember that many of the consumers who will pick up this game are not designers or even historians. They just want to play.  Give them that ability... otherwise I'm afraid that "PO" might take on a whole new meaning.

_____________________________

JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.

(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)
Post #: 26
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 7:28:19 PM   
Catch21

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 4/13/2006
From: Dublin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero
With approx 130 new scenarios it should have taken a beta tester about 3-4 hours to load each in editor, locate the info, and identify which were PO and which were PBEM only. Why this was not done is beyond me...

These scenarios were all volunteer efforts or at best on even the original scenarios I'd suggest well below minimum wage. The problem in scenario selection was with the quality of the PO/AI, not whether or not it existed. It won't help for instance in a Normandy 1944 scenario if all your German PO formation objectives are in Southern France- say Monte Carlo- for example. Or (maybe even better) Berlin.

If you have interest I've an Excel S/S from several years back now that did try to identify PO functionality by scenario. There may be newer scenarios out there and some may have been updated, but it might give you some help on this. Please PM me with your e-mail address if you'd like a copy.

< Message edited by General Staff -- 6/17/2006 7:39:26 PM >

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Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
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Post #: 27
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 7:54:23 PM   
Catch21

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 4/13/2006
From: Dublin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket
Thanks for the link! It seems that there are several sites that have almost all the elements of a package that would allow the user to judge what scenarios are suitable for play against the PO, but none that quite do so up front. This is understandable because most of these sites are dedicated to ladder play, and the earlier versions of TOAW had a more anemic version of "Elmer", making solo play a less important consideration.

I know that as a player (really a player in waiting, the mailman hasn't been kind to me yet) I would rather have the main focus of scenario identification and even production rest with the multitude of users, rather than the comparatively limited resources of the publisher, for the purely selfish reason that it is likely to deliver more gaming to me faster.

You're welcome. The 'old' TOAW had a terrible PO (Programmed Offering) or AI (Artificial Incredulity). But few players bothered with it once they'd used it to understand the mechanics and realized how hopeless it really was and how easy to beat. So once you'd done this you really either quit, went hotseat or PBEM.

With PBEM the stats I think really start to speak for themselves over time and given enough games. So that gives you who plays what and which side is most likely to win. I always looked over these before playing any game (not to mention my opponents' RBI!), though in tournament play you can get landed with some desperate challenges.

I look forward to Elmer. And like you, I'm waiting for the mailman.



_____________________________

Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

(in reply to Bloodybucket28th)
Post #: 28
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 10:51:40 PM   
wolflars

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I look forward to Elmer
quote:



I gotta tell ya General Staff, Elmer ain't half bad, he has a few tricks up his sleeves, watch your flanks! But, like any other AI even he will eventually fall short of the cunning of a human opponent.

(in reply to Catch21)
Post #: 29
RE: Rommel in Africa scenario AI??? - 6/17/2006 11:11:36 PM   
Bloodybucket28th


Posts: 130
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		I suppose that depends on the human opponent.  If I ever meet an AI that makes up for it's lack of planning with desperate and ill-advised attacks, I'm afraid I'll have met my match.

(in reply to wolflars)
Post #: 30
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