TOAW III for the inexperienced

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TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 5:20:48 AM

iaidoka2

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All

I dont own it but have been enjoying the AARs immensely (Larry does a fine job and his animated gifs really create some interest in the game for me) BUT I have no real experience in hex based wargaming (computer or board). So, for someone with zero experience in such gaming, what is the learning curve really like, how frustrating can turn based be (Im guessing that only a few scenarios are so massive that, like Larry seems to do, you can spend a whole day moving your units) etc?

Im liking the look of the game because of its scope and would be more interest in WWII Western Front and North Africa scenarios. In particular, how are the Nth Africa scenarios (assuming there are several)?

Any comments gratefully received.

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 5:28:38 AM

Chuck2

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There seems to be a wide range of North Africa scenarios, from small 2-kilometer per hex maps covering single battles to giant maps covering all of Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco.

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 5:29:48 AM

Menschenfresser

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There are several very good N.Africa scenarios that model individual battles like Tobruk and El Alamein. Several that model Rommel's counter attack at larger scales. And a good series that models the entire theater from beginning until the Germans are pushed off the map modelled in great detail at a small scale.

East front is also TOAWs strong suit as far as scenario depth goes.

If you do it right, start out with small scenarios, you can get proficient pretty quickly. But even veterans of the game, like myself, can't call themselves masters of the OpArt. Few can. I advise you to get a game or two under your belt playing another relative newbie before taking on someone of high skill. I know others will disagree. You'll still get your arse handed to you, but having played one or two, you'll learn more from the arsekicking.

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Make wargames, not war.

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 8:05:58 AM

ralphtricky

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The other thing that I'd recommend is not stressing the manual too much. It's a searchable PDF file. It's easy to get lost in it. The first time I tried to learn TOAW, I read through the entire manual first. That was probably a mistake. I sometimes think I would have been better off starting up the tutorials first instead.

The basics are pretty simple, and you should pick them up quickly. There are some strange rules like AirDrops, Sea transport, beaches, engineers, supply, etc. but you can pick them up later.

Some of the PBEM players are going to tell you that Elmer the AP/PO is a push-over. Remember that they've been playing for a long time. The TOAW III AI/PO is much better than the last one. He's got a ways to go, but in some scenarios, he's a decent player. He's going to be even better once people start writing for him.

You also may want to play some very simple scenarios like Arracourt, they're quick to play and allow you to try different strategies.

Ralph

_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 9:39:55 AM

Uncle_Joe

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Are there other scenarios like Arracourt? I like the small quick-hit scenarios with limited forces from time to time. Most of the scenarios I've looked at were just entirely too big. Arracourt shows that the game can work really well with just a handful of units and a good idea.

So can anyone recommend some other smaller (but still quality) scenarios?

Thanks!

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 2:36:52 PM

Catch21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe
Are there other scenarios like Arracourt?

Many. A quick search on scenarios under 15 turns showed well over 100.

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(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 4:09:21 PM

Terl

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quote:

The other thing that I'd recommend is not stressing the manual too much. It's a searchable PDF file. It's easy to get lost in it. The first time I tried to learn TOAW, I read through the entire manual first. That was probably a mistake. I sometimes think I would have been better off starting up the tutorials first instead.

I was happy to see this

I just bought this yesterday and looked at the manual, then the tutorials and like most gamers, I guess, dove right into the tutorials. I was smart and printed them out too.

The tutorials are well done and I am learning a lot. I especially liked the first one, Anonymous Heroics, as the author took time to explain the impacts of different things on a PBEM games as opposed to one vs computer. It actually makes me want to try a PBEM game once I get used to gameplay.

I am so very pleased I puchased TOAW3....

(in reply to Catch21)

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 6:47:41 PM

froggie

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Slowly learning the ropes of TOAW III and HTTR (bought both). I'm a novice when it comes to military operations and tactics and would enjoy reading good "war college" type books that explain the basics. Any ideas?

(in reply to Terl)

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 7:07:28 PM

Uncle_Joe

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quote:

Many. A quick search on scenarios under 15 turns showed well over 100.

Is there any way to search for number of units and/or map size? I have seen some 'short' scenarios that still have a fairly high unit density. Arracourt has quite a low unit density and that is closer to what I'm looking for (moreso than simply not many turns).

Thanks!

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 7:39:39 PM

JAMiAM

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Open the scenario in the scenario editor, use the menu option View > Order of Battle. In the panel that opens, you can see how many units are in the theater for each side. You'll need to click the little double flag button at the right, to switch sides.

As far as map size goes, you can see this in game or in the editor, by scrolling to the lower right corner of the map, and looking at the x,y coordinates. Add one to those values, since both start at an origin of zero.

(in reply to Uncle_Joe)

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 8:22:44 PM

ralphtricky

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I've found that sorting by file size is a rough approximation of complexity.

The smaller the file the less complicated.

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 8:27:32 PM

pvthudson01

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Try the Tannenberg WW1 Scenario its a good starting one also

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/22/2006 11:38:54 PM

Warfare1

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Just a few pointers:

1) Just remember that this is a game of maneuver warfare. Punch a hole through the enemy lines with infantry and arty, then flank and surround them with armour and mobile infantry. Cut off the enemy from supply. For examples of this, read up on Germany's classic opening attacks on the USSR in Barbarossa.

2) Flanking attacks on enemy units gives them more damage. Example, hit the enemy from two different sides or angles.

3) Don't over-stack units (keep them in the green); use arty to soften up the enemy; and keep HQs units close by and/or in cities and on roads to boost supply to units in its formation.

Enjoy.

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 6/22/2006 11:41:56 PM >

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/23/2006 12:55:15 AM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iaidoka2
I have no real experience in hex based wargaming (computer or board).

Neither did I when I bought the original.

I was a miniatures player. Didn't play boardgames and didn't play computer wargames either.

TOAW was my first real "counter" style wargame and "WOW" did I like it.

It's a classic... whether you are a boardgamer or not.

Ray (alias Lava)

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Post #: 14

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/23/2006 4:43:09 AM

jwarrenw13

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I recommend trying Anonymous Heroics (Red PO) in the Tutorials file. It is a perfectly balanced, small, 10-turn scenario with just infantry, armor, and headquarters units. No air. Play as Gray against the Red programmed opponent. I didn't read what the Tutorial says about the scenario. I just started playing it.

I've played TOAW since the very first version, and I've played this one half a dozen times now with TOAW III in just a couple of days. I'm enjoying trying different strategies and seeing what happens. The PO is pretty good and attacks relentlessly.

This little scenario will help you learn how to defend and attack in TOAW III and some basics about supply and objectives etc.

This scenario also allows you to use theater options, in this case asking for reinforcements at a cost in victory points.

What have I been doing? I've been trying different things like defending in place instead of attacking, or weighting my forces in the center or on a flank. Last night I tried a trap, pulling back my units on one flank, hiding my tank forces in reserve in the center, and seeing if I could envelope the attacking forces on the flank once they passed. I did, but I couldn't do what I wanted in the time allotted and settled for a draw. I guess the UN stopped the war.

Elmer reacted pretty well, btw. He continued the attack with some forces and peeled back other forces to try to block my flanking force.

And kudos again to Elmer. A huge improvement over the old PO.

(in reply to *Lava*)

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/23/2006 2:21:59 PM

Terl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JW

I recommend trying Anonymous Heroics (Red PO) in the Tutorials file. It is a perfectly balanced, small, 10-turn scenario with just infantry, armor, and headquarters units. No air. Play as Gray against the Red programmed opponent. I didn't read what the Tutorial says about the scenario. I just started playing it.

I agree. I have never played TOAW before. I started with this tutorial and have been enjoying it. I did print the tutorial text and followed along with it. I would recommend this to folks new to the game. Like JW I am now experimenting with different tactics in this same scenario.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/24/2006 11:03:53 PM

CommC

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I created some small scenarios in ACOW to test the limit of the TOAW engine in handling small unit operations. These were something like "tactical vignettes" with small maps and small numbers of units. Units were something like 2-tank sections, or individual vehicles on the 2.5 km/hex map.

Specifically, I wanted to test if the TOAW engine could validate the concept of US, "Air- Land" doctrine. To make a long story short, the TOAW engine worked well for this and I was able to demonstrate that a mobile defense in depth with counter attacks was much more effective than a conventional "static" defense. This was with mid 80's armored equipment in the central Germany, Warsaw Pact vs Nato type of conflict.

I will convert these scenarios to TOAW3, where they should work even better, and post them at some point.

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/24/2006 11:39:18 PM

Uncle_Joe

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CommC:

Please do. That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. A limited unit mix and a fixed goal. Just something that I can bang out in half hour or so.

Also for anyone else looking, Kasserine Pass is fairly small (at least from the German side). Its definately a step above Arracourt, but its pretty manageable.

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 5:14:22 PM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: froggie

Slowly learning the ropes of TOAW III and HTTR (bought both).� I'm a novice when it comes to military operations and tactics and would enjoy reading good "war college" type books that explain the basics.� Any ideas?

..the Art of War by that chinese guy

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..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..be�n'tus all..?,

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 5:19:03 PM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

I've found that sorting by file size is a rough approximation of complexity.

The smaller the file the less complicated.

..try the newer Ethiopia scens, few pieces, large map, a bugger to win even against the acow PO

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..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..be�n'tus all..?,

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 5:47:55 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

Is there any way to search for number of units and/or map size? I have seen some 'short' scenarios that still have a fairly high unit density. Arracourt has quite a low unit density and that is closer to what I'm looking for (moreso than simply not many turns).

The Rugged Defence scenario archive allows you to search for scenarios by "complexity". This is the ticket.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 5:50:53 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..the Art of War by that chinese guy

Not Sun Tzu again. An expert in sounding intelligent whilst not actually saying anything at all.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 6:07:56 PM

Terl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: froggie

Slowly learning the ropes of TOAW III and HTTR (bought both).� I'm a novice when it comes to military operations and tactics and would enjoy reading good "war college" type books that explain the basics.� Any ideas?

..the Art of War by that chinese guy

Try this: On War by General Carl von Clausewitz Click the title to see the whole book

< Message edited by Terl -- 6/26/2006 6:08:38 PM >

(in reply to a white rabbit)

Post #: 23

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 6:18:58 PM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..the Art of War by that chinese guy

Not Sun Tzu again. An expert in sounding intelligent whilst not actually saying anything at all.

..oh Grasshopper, shame on you

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..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..be�n'tus all..?,

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 6:19:47 PM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
The Rugged Defence scenario archive allows you to search for scenarios by "complexity". This is the ticket.

The complexity calculations performed by RD should be treated with a bit of skepticism. For example, I have several scenarios posted by RD and in most of them only 20% to 25% of the OOB appears in any one battle. Yet, RD uses the total OOB unit count in their complexity calculation, thereby, greatly over stating the complexity. I suspect that this might be true with other authors and scenarios.

Regards, RhinoBones

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 25

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 6:22:08 PM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terl

quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: froggie

Slowly learning the ropes of TOAW III and HTTR (bought both).� I'm a novice when it comes to military operations and tactics and would enjoy reading good "war college" type books that explain the basics.� Any ideas?

..the Art of War by that chinese guy

Try this: On War by General Carl von Clausewitz Click the title to see the whole book

..later, i did and my download stopped..nnooooooooooooooooo

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..be�n'tus all..?,

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 6:37:37 PM

Catch21

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Sun Tzu and von Clausewitz have their uses (I find the latter more useful), but they're a hard read and maybe a little dated for 20th Century combat.

Try http://www.lonesentry.com/ or I have a Word doc on "WWII OPERATIONAL DOCTRINES- GERMANY" from the "HANDBOOK ON GERMAN MILITARY FORCES" (MARCH 1945) SOURCE: U.S. WAR DEPARTMENT (sorry for the caps but it was a cut and paste op) for those interested in WWII. PM me if you'd like a copy. I found it quite useful at start. Or type in these terms in a search engine and you can maybe locate it.

Or you can always post specific Qs here and there and someone will invariably answer.

Hope this helps.

< Message edited by General Staff -- 6/26/2006 6:40:57 PM >

_____________________________

Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 6:37:38 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

The complexity calculations performed by RD should be treated with a bit of skepticism. For example, I have several scenarios posted by RD and in most of them only 20% to 25% of the OOB appears in any one battle. Yet, RD uses the total OOB unit count in their complexity calculation, thereby, greatly over stating the complexity. I suspect that this might be true with other authors and scenarios.

Yeah. Still, it's a decent approximation. Most scenarios have the majority of units in play from the outset.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/26/2006 6:38:28 PM >

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/26/2006 6:40:42 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

Sun Tzu and von Clausewitz have their uses (I find the latter more useful), but they're a hard read and maybe a little dated for 20th Century combat.

Clausewitz is I think applicable for the 20th century- but not so much for the operational level, so much as general principles and for understanding the nature of war. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone hoping to become a better TOAW player. I think reading Manstein made me play better, though.

The best advice I can give for TOAW is to always look before you leap.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/26/2006 6:41:10 PM >

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Catch21)

Post #: 29

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/27/2006 5:28:00 AM

iaidoka2

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OK - im going to get it in the next couple of days (when I get time to turn the computer on and not p***off the other half) and take the plunge. The AARs are too inviting not to.

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 30