RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced

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RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/28/2006 3:36:35 AM

CommC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CommC

I created some small scenarios in ACOW to test the limit of the TOAW engine in handling small unit operations. These were something like "tactical vignettes" with small maps and small numbers of units. Units were something like 2-tank sections, or individual vehicles on the 2.5 km/hex map.

Specifically, I wanted to test if the TOAW engine could validate the concept of US, "Air- Land" doctrine. To make a long story short, the TOAW engine worked well for this and I was able to demonstrate that a mobile defense in depth with counter attacks was much more effective than a conventional "static" defense. This was with mid 80's armored equipment in the central Germany, Warsaw Pact vs Nato type of conflict.

I will convert these scenarios to TOAW3, where they should work even better, and post them at some point.

Well, I converted one of these scenarios to TOAW3 and play tested it. And, well, the test didn't go so well. I'm going to have to do some significant revisions.

More specifically, with the old armor/gunnery model, I had to use M1A2s vs the T72/T80 warsaw Pact equipment to get a balanced result. With the new TOAW3 model, the M1A2s cleaned up on the WP equipment. I will try switching to M1A1s and M1A1HAs.

Also, Elmer didn't fare so well. He attacked aggresively, but piecemeal, and got chewed up pretty bad. I may have to use one or two large formations for red, instead of many small ones. That might help Elmer better coordinate and concentrate his forces.

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Post #: 31

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 6/28/2006 4:10:39 AM

ralphtricky

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CommC,
Let me know how it goes. I'd think that more units in the formations may help Elmer to coordinate.

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Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

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Post #: 32

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 7/3/2006 2:44:01 AM

CommC

Posts: 467
Joined: 8/3/2002
From: Michigan, USA
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Elmer works a lot better when the units are collected into one large formation rather than several smaller ones. In fact, now, with the same material as in ACOW, I can't defeat the PO no matter which strategy I try. Elmer does a much better job of concentrating his forces to resist a counter attack than the ACOW PO did.

We may want to start a thread in the Scenario design or support section to further discuss the ramifications of the improved PO on scenario design. Many of my previous ACOW scenarios are going to have to be significantly modified to bring them into balance for TOAW3.

Congrats on a greatly improved PO!

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Post #: 33

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 7/3/2006 3:31:47 AM

ralphtricky

Posts: 6685
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From: Colorado Springs
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Thanks!

It was a big gamble, I'm glad it came off the way I'd hoped.

Ralph

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Post #: 34

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 7/3/2006 3:54:47 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CommC

In fact, now, with the same material as in ACOW, I can't defeat the PO no matter which strategy I try.

In general, if you want to beat the PO, concentrate all your offensive punch in one place- not just everything you have locally, but everything you can muster from the map. The PO won't be able to compensate. Work on destroying whole formations to create gaps in the net of objectives. Depending on how careful the designer is this will have a greater or lesser impact.

Of course, this is exploiting the design just a wee bit. Ralph might not approve.

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Post #: 35

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 7/3/2006 5:28:16 AM

ralphtricky

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: CommC
In fact, now, with the same material as in ACOW, I can't defeat the PO no matter which strategy I try.

In general, if you want to beat the PO, concentrate all your offensive punch in one place- not just everything you have locally, but everything you can muster from the map. The PO won't be able to compensate. Work on destroying whole formations to create gaps in the net of objectives. Depending on how careful the designer is this will have a greater or lesser impact.

Of course, this is exploiting the design just a wee bit. Ralph might not approve.

That's the same reason he went with larger formations, so that Elmer would be able to handle them better, and it would be harder to take Elmer apart piecemeal.

You're absolutely right about one way to beat Elmer. It works against people too, but probably better against Elmer

. In some scenarios, you may have to put limits on what you do to avoid winning too easily. It will be interesting to see if the scenario authors can program Elmer to be able to respond to that strategy.

The good thing is that you have to do something to beat Elmer now, you can't expect him to line up in neat stacks to be beaten up. You're going to have to think strategically and have a plan, just like against a human.

The current goal of Elmer is not to be unbeatable, I don't have quite enough Hubris to aspire to that. The goal of Elmer is to be fun to play against!

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Post #: 36

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 7/4/2006 12:04:36 AM

CommC

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Yeah, this is only a small test scenario, with only one formation on each side, and very few objectives. To beat Elmer with the defense in depth doctrine, I'm going to have to catch the PO forces "on the move", with hit and run tactics before they can concentrate. And I'm afraid that may be beyond the TOAW engine.

Oh, and the PO's side outnumbers the human side (Nato) about 5:1 in material in this scenario.

< Message edited by CommC -- 7/4/2006 12:06:16 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: TOAW III for the inexperienced - 7/4/2006 2:19:59 AM

ralphtricky

Posts: 6685
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CommC

Yeah, this is only a small test scenario, with only one formation on each side, and very few objectives. To beat Elmer with the defense in depth doctrine, I'm going to have to catch the PO forces "on the move", with hit and run tactics before they can concentrate. And I'm afraid that may be beyond the TOAW engine.

Oh, and the PO's side outnumbers the human side (Nato) about 5:1 in material in this scenario.

Let me know what limitations you run into.

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Post #: 38