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AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves

 
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AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/24/2006 7:12:59 AM   
BleacherBum

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		Just finished year 1 of my first league on PureSim 2007, version 1.24. 28 team fictional league, all teams managed by CPU. I turned off trades and injuries. I just wanted to get an idea of how things are looking in this year's version.

At the end of the regular season, the 4 playoff teams each executed a series of roster moves calling up minor leaguers at the expense of major leaguers. Two of the 4 teams also made a few roster moves during July and August, the other 2 teams didn't make any other roster moves at all until October.

In all, on Oct 16, 12 players were called up from the minors, and 9 of these 12 had absoultely zero games of big league experience. Clearly the MLB playoff roster rules don't apply. But more importantly, there is no reason these guys should be cutting their teeth in the post season. And these guys were getting into games, in fact one guy took on the Closer role (posting an ERA of 21.60 in the LCS), and two other players found themselves in the starting lineups as DHs.

What is going on here? Has anyone else noticed this? Seems this really cheapens the Post Season. And yes, I know there's the occasional K-Rod story in the big leagues, but even he didn't throw his first major league pitch in a playoff game.

Edit: a little deja vu, just took a while to find it...
http://p089.ezboard.com/fpuresimbaseballfrm21.showMessage?topicID=1311.topic
------

On another note, when looking at the those 4 teams Transaction history, noticed one of these...

8/15/2000 Called up Joseph Bennett (23 yr old P) from the minors
8/15/2000 Sent Joseph Cook (32 yr old P) down to the minors
7/29/2000 Called up Joseph Cook (32 yr old P) from the minors
7/29/2000 Sent Joseph Bennett (23 yr old P) down to the minors
7/27/2000 Called up Joseph Bennett (23 yr old P) down to the minors
7/27/2000 Sent Joseph Cook (32 yr old P) down to the minors





< Message edited by BleacherBum -- 7/24/2006 8:20:05 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/24/2006 3:31:22 PM   
bobsayah

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline 		I've seen this as well, BleacherBum. I wish AI issues like this one would get more attention from Shaun. This has been a problem for years now.

(in reply to BleacherBum)
Post #: 2
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/24/2006 6:32:51 PM   
BleacherBum

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		I suspect all fictional leagues have this issue. I wonder if many players just aren't scrutinizing what the CPU teams are doing, or they have noticed this but don't care. A couple of clicks to the CPU playoff team page Transactions list tells the story.

The callups certainly are a problem. I'm also concerned that the CPU playoff teams decide to redo their lineups and rotation right before the playoffs, and come up with different answers than what they employed throughout the regular season.

(in reply to bobsayah)
Post #: 3
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/24/2006 7:41:31 PM   
SittingDuck

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
Status: offline 		Well, here's what I would like to know - do the players that get called up have hot production stats?  And are they replacing guys who have weak major-level stats?

If so, then the AI is weighting way too heavily towards stats in player evaluation.  I have cut it down somewhat on stats weighting and raised slightly the ratings weighting.  So not sure if this major/minor callup/down thing is going on in my league.  I'll have to check.  Gotta save the league one day before the season ends, I think, because perhaps the AI shoots straight into the roster stuff after the last regular game.  Then again, it might not happen until the teams 'prepare for the playoffs'.

(in reply to BleacherBum)
Post #: 4
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/24/2006 7:44:17 PM   
SittingDuck

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
Status: offline 		Mmmm.  Just read that old link.  Do the teams still do the same thing, bringing up poor stat players?  Your post mentioned untested/lightly-tested players, but maybe I missed the part on stat production.

(in reply to SittingDuck)
Post #: 5
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/24/2006 7:52:46 PM   
33sherman

 

Posts: 175
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline 		I saw this happen in my fictional league the other day, with a team starting two recently called up players with no ABs in the World Series.

I don't recall seeing this in 2005, but I could be wrong.

(in reply to SittingDuck)
Post #: 6
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/24/2006 8:52:08 PM   
Amaroq

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 33sherman

I saw this happen in my fictional league the other day, with a team starting two recently called up players with no ABs in the World Series.

I don't recall seeing this in 2005, but I could be wrong.


It was definitely present in PS'05, its been a long-standing 'bug'.

SittingDuck, I'd be very interested to hear if your .XML file has at least partially addressed this.

If so, that may indicate that the level for 'poor stats leading to demotion' is too high.

In fact, we might want a third 'post-season evaluation' function, something which might look like 30% stats, 40% ratings, 30% experience (say) - an encouragement for the AI to promote veterans out of the minor leagues, if they wound up demoted during the season, and a disincentive to promoting untried rookies. (In fact, a player with 0 career at bats scoring a '0' on experience should be enough to keep them out of the roster entirely.)

(in reply to 33sherman)
Post #: 7
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/24/2006 9:08:41 PM   
BleacherBum

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		Possible solutions:
1) The only canidates for the playoffs are players that have logged some minimum amount of ABs/IPs in the big leagues. Narrowing the candidate pool would probably halt 90% of the CPU's bad decisions occurring at this point in the season.
2) Nobody gets promoted after a certain date (final month?) except as an injury replacement. Make this day (e.g. Sep 1st, or 15th in my league) the key day for roster shuffling. That way, at least the lineups that reach the playoffs have been in place for a bit.
3) When the CPU makes roster decisions, place an increasing weight on major league stats according to the time of the season, and the team's contention for a playoff spot. Good teams don't do a lot of auditioning in Septemember/October ; bad teams do.

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 8
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/24/2006 10:23:21 PM   
Amaroq

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline 		Yeah, '3' sounds like the best way to go.

Interestingly, the 40-man roster might help with this (allowing 'good' teams to audition players in meaningless games without having to send starters to the minors).

Also, it might be reasonable for a CPU team to do a 'shuffle' weighted towards 'youth' when they clinch the division title, with another 'shuffle' prior to the post-season weighted towards 'experience'.

(in reply to BleacherBum)
Post #: 9
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/25/2006 2:40:25 AM   
jono

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I think the 40-man roster would make this a huge nightmare, it would give the AI 15 below major league quality players to start in place of your regular players for the last month of the season.  At least now there are only a few not ready for prime time players on a major league roster at a time at most.  I would hate to see 2 teams tied for first coming into the last game of the season with one team deciding to start their Triple A lineup with their star single A pitcher for all the marbles. 

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 10
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/25/2006 3:10:48 AM   
SittingDuck

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
Status: offline 		What a nightmare.

Well, something needs to be done.  What can we say about it when you get all the way to the WS and then the AI team flops like that?  What is the point of playing?

(in reply to jono)
Post #: 11
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/25/2006 3:51:29 AM   
verizon32

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: offline 		A suggestion for the Playoffs

What about the 25 man roster will be lock after the last game of year.

You can only promote from minors if you put a Player on DL during the playoffs.

If the cpu teams can follow that too, it can solve the problem for the playoffs.






< Message edited by verizon32 -- 7/25/2006 3:53:04 AM >

(in reply to SittingDuck)
Post #: 12
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/25/2006 4:16:39 AM   
SittingDuck

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

SittingDuck, I'd be very interested to hear if your .XML file has at least partially addressed this.



Truthfully, I can't wait to get to the end of this season. I will check out how both teams react in the last few days of the season and then for the playoffs. I'll let you know.

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 13
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/25/2006 4:34:05 AM   
puresimmer

 

Posts: 2299
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BleacherBum

3) When the CPU makes roster decisions, place an increasing weight on major league stats according to the time of the season, and the team's contention for a playoff spot. Good teams don't do a lot of auditioning in Septemember/October ; bad teams do.


This is exactly what the AI is programmed to do, so there is obviously a bug somewhere.

I have never been able to recreate this issue, so maybe there is a detail I am missing. I did change the AI to shuffle the roster and switch to a 4-man rotation, so maybe that is the cause.

I'll look into it.


_____________________________

Developer, PureSim Baseball

(in reply to BleacherBum)
Post #: 14
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/25/2006 4:06:23 PM   
BleacherBum

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		Shaun, I can send you a league file if you like. I do see this behavior in every league I've run in the last couple years, so I'm not sure the recent change you made for the 4-man rotations is to blame.

(in reply to puresimmer)
Post #: 15
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/25/2006 4:08:31 PM   
puresimmer

 

Posts: 2299
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		Yea, that change was not recent, I'm just trying to think what the catalyst would be.

If you have an association in a pre-shuffle state I'd love to get ahold of it.

Thanks!

_____________________________

Developer, PureSim Baseball

(in reply to BleacherBum)
Post #: 16
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/25/2006 4:13:00 PM   
BleacherBum

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		Let me check. I save the association when the final day of the season is finished (so I have the split stats), then I save again after the playoffs are over. Should be able to get you a matched set, and I believe the roster moves occur in between these two saves.

(in reply to puresimmer)
Post #: 17
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/25/2006 6:56:14 PM   
Amaroq

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline 		BleacherBum, most developers would *kill* for that kind of reproducible case! Way to go!

Shaun, if its not an outright bug - a less than instead of a greater than, say - do consider what the cutoffs for 'poor performance' are. The one I tend to notice is the team's sluggers, HR and RBI leaders, getting demoted, so I find myself looking at playoff lineups that simply don't look like playoff-quality teams.

In fact, I've noticed this across the board - not just in the playoffs, but my teams typically hang with the pack in April and May, start taking off in June, and really dust off the opposition through July and August. This isn't a result of trades - I've come to suspect its a result of non-attribute based roster shuffling progressively worsening the quality of the opposition.

< Message edited by Amaroq -- 7/25/2006 6:59:52 PM >

(in reply to BleacherBum)
Post #: 18
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/26/2006 3:06:06 AM   
SittingDuck

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
Status: offline 		*interested look*

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 19
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/26/2006 6:30:22 AM   
Amaroq

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline 		To elaborate a little bit, that's why I thought you were barking down the right tree with the change to the ratios, SittingDuck - 10/0 is way too extreme, I think, and I doubt I personally wind up with much more than 5/5 in my own evaluation.

(in reply to SittingDuck)
Post #: 20
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/26/2006 6:51:11 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		I don't see this. I earlier recounted a real-player sim which I ran for two years -- nothing looked severely "out of kilter" , but the trades I made did alter the balance of power. 

What are you guys wanting?  The stats look reasonable (except for CGS in the deadball ERA), so what more do you want? 

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 21
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/26/2006 7:20:43 AM   
BleacherBum

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		KG, are you responding to this topic? The scenario is a league of fictional players, where after the final day of the season a series of inexplicable roster moves are made by the playoff teams. The stats for the league are not at issue; its the playoff competition.

Shaun, I sent you a league file that exhibits this problem via SendThisFile

< Message edited by BleacherBum -- 7/26/2006 7:21:44 AM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 22
RE: AI Issue: Pre-Playoff Roster Moves - 7/27/2006 3:55:59 AM   
DonBraswell


Posts: 384
Joined: 8/24/2005
From: Millbrook, Alabama
Status: offline 		I reported this a while back. I was repromoting all of the major leaguers every year. But, I got tired of changing the AI rosters every year.
Don

(in reply to BleacherBum)
Post #: 23
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