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I really want to like this game! But... - 9/7/2006 8:05:33 PM   
Severe

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 8/9/2003
From: MinneaPOLIS Minnesota
Status: offline 		I don't mean to be negative but I'm really trying to like this game and
just can't seem to to turn the corner. First, I find everything so small especially the font's ; the type of fonts does'nt help either. Also I have trouble playing games where I never know where to to start or how. You may gather that my eyes are'nt the best in town, your right. The micro-management in this game is realy quite complicated and this combined with the xtra small fonts makes it even tougher. Am I right to say that this is a game for people who really really love micro-managing or am I wrong. I am very happy to hear that this game has won some nice awards
but can it be that maybe this might just be a bad fit for me. I am very open to the input of any veterans[of the game] who love this game and
who can make a case for liking this game. I don't mean justifying the game. Maybe offering a new perspective that I may have missed here. This in no way is ment as a slam against this game . I believe this game is as good as they say it is, it's just that I,m not seeing it and may be
coming at it from the worng angle. All input is very much welcomed.
Post #: 1
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/7/2006 9:49:40 PM   
JReb


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
Status: offline 		This isn't a pure wargame since the player has to manage the economics, diplomacy and province mgmt. for their nation too. I would suggest reading Raleigh's Tips found at the top of this forum in the War Room thread. It should help you get started.
This game definitely has a learning curve but like all good things, it takes time.

Be prepared to start over a few times.

Some simple advice:

Start with the Diplomatic Advisor, look at the "View relations" screen and see who you are at war with. Make military plans accordingly. Take the time to check out "Make New Treaty". Just for fun, select and add some of the treaty clauses to understand what they can do. It is quite a bit actually. You can always cancel and exit without proposing the treaty.

With the Economic advisor, just starting, you will have to increase the tax rate and size of the draft. Also look at the Trades screen and see what you have and determine what you need. Propose trades with your allies. Go after Cotton from Turkey. It is in short supply.

With Development Advisor, it is a province by province check to evaluate what resources the province produces best, slide the green labor allocation sliders around until the province mainly produces what it does best or what you need most. Its a balancing act but don't forget labor, gotta have guys available to build military units and province improvements. Also, click on build unit and see what you can build and the resources needed. Hint: build ships in province with largest Docks, military units in large barracks province. Forgot what makes the best Dilpomat, Courts?

I don't use the Military advisor much as I tend to know where my armies are and what there orders are. But, if you are just starting a game, organize your divisions into Corps and Armies but do so with an objective in mind. Assign leaders, put most of the best in the army you plan to use the most. Other weaker leaders are good for lesser demanding roles, occupation or small sieges. But make yourself a big hammer with one Army!

What some people call micro managing, I call characteristics of a game that is not a pure wargame. You are not just moving units around a map and having battles. You are managing a nation, its resources, economy and foreign policy decisions.
Use all the facets of the game to win. Do not rely entirely on the muilitary. Through treaties and trade, a player can accomplish quite a bit. Don't underestimate the power of a Diplomat. He can accomplish, sometimes, what an entire Army can't.

_____________________________

My shrink says I have anger management and conflict resolution issues....and I'LL FIGHT ANYBODY THAT DISAGREES!

(in reply to Severe)
Post #: 2
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/7/2006 10:16:59 PM   
Syagrius

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		A played a couple of games so far as Spain and Turkey and I must admit that I don't see how diplomats can be useful. Maybe I don't use them efficiently?

(in reply to JReb)
Post #: 3
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/7/2006 10:58:29 PM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		As far as micro-managing, you don't really need to. One of the faults of the game is that it is very difficult to tell what is going on with the economy. However, I find that I only consistently need to check a few screens. The diplomatic one of course just to be sure who's at war with whom. Secondly, the economy screen where it has your tax rate, draft info and other. I typically lower the draft rate and improve morale and then leave it at that for the remainder of the game. Finally, I trade if need be to get the supplies I may be short of just by looking at the summaries on the main screen.

That's about it. I do province development of course but I almost never play with sliders except to make sure it's fully allocated. For province development, concentrate on farms to increase food, cotton, wool, horses, wine and spices. Concentrate on factories for iron, textiles (which requires cotton or wool) and I believe pottery. I think timber falls under the farms but not sure.

Barracks increase morale of infantry/cav. Factories for artillery. Docks for ships. And yes, courts provide improved diplomats.

There you go, the economy in a nutshell!

(in reply to Severe)
Post #: 4
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/8/2006 6:02:29 PM   
JReb


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Syagrius

A played a couple of games so far as Spain and Turkey and I must admit that I don't see how diplomats can be useful. Maybe I don't use them efficiently?


I use them as a group. The most effective things I have found to do with them is to first, lower morale of your enemy with Propaganda (Espionage and Influence ratings?). This combined with winning a few battles may mean the difference of a long siege of the enemy capital or their quick surrender because of insurrectionists. Literally, could shave off 3-4 turns off your war.

Second, turn on the trade route map and see where your enemy's main trade routes are and place Diplos with the highest Legal rating? there to stop trade. This also will hurt your enemy and lower the national morale. Especially if you stop the luxuries from coming in.

Occasionally I have them expel other Dilpos but it is the third option for them.

Don't bother with Charm too much because as soon as you reach #1, everybody hates you anyway.


_____________________________

My shrink says I have anger management and conflict resolution issues....and I'LL FIGHT ANYBODY THAT DISAGREES!

(in reply to Syagrius)
Post #: 5
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/8/2006 6:14:44 PM   
JReb


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram


I do province development of course but I almost never play with sliders except to make sure it's fully allocated.



You are missing out on the slider manipulation.

First, the game will sometimes take a point of labor or two and put into something that produces nothing. You may have labor for wood but the province produces no wood. Use that labor elsewhere.

Second, as your provinces grow (factories, farms, etc.,)you will find that, for example, it may not take 15 labor to produce 3 Iron, maybe you can slide down on the labor and still get the 3 Iron and free up labor for elsewhere.

Third, like the old SM Civ3 game, when a province has 1 or 2 turns left before finishing an improvement, you can slide down on the development labor and still get the improvement in 1 or 2 turns. This frees up labor for other things.

I typically view each province each turn even though I may not make any changes but remember, this is a resource driven game and the better you manage that, the higher you can take your game and better your chances for winning.

Now you can use that labor for more luxuries if morale is low or increase production of the hard stuff (wood, iron, textiles, etc.,). The point being, use the slider to find out EXACTLY how much labor does it take to produce the goods and how much labor is in excess and not being used efficiently.






< Message edited by JReb -- 9/8/2006 6:19:03 PM >

_____________________________

My shrink says I have anger management and conflict resolution issues....and I'LL FIGHT ANYBODY THAT DISAGREES!

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 6
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/9/2006 2:51:33 AM   
AvalonHillfan

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 8/21/2006
Status: offline 		re: There you go, the economy in a nutshell!


in the latest version, growing your courts and culture can virtually eliminate waste. In addition, courts are worth extra VPs on enemy surrender. Get one province to 10!

edit:

re: diplomats. If you get an enforced alliance treaty (perhaps by respecting neturals) put a diplo in your ally's nation to keep them happy. Propaganda is good. Also, try insurrection on occupied provinces. Late in the game, playing as France, I get Ireland to revolt and then I conquer it, all in order to gain a foothold in the British Isles. Even later in the game, use Insurrection to eliminate enemy protectorates, especially in Egypt which is valuable because of its effect on colonial income. Beware, however: your enemies can do the same to you. I briefly lost Switzerland to insurrection in a recent game.

Finally, Capture/Expel is useful. I used to be able to capture leaders this way, but in the current game, seem to mostly expel enemy diplomats.

< Message edited by AvalonHillfan -- 9/9/2006 2:56:58 AM >

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 7
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/9/2006 6:04:11 PM   
1NWCG


Posts: 238
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		I found the sliders to be very effective in manipulation and production of goods.  Banks increase your revenue so for nations that may not generate money on the fly it is a good way to boost it.

One question I have is how do you get your trading ships to consistenly bring in money and where does it list those funds.

_____________________________

Wargame Clubs - http://www.wargame.ch

The Blitz - http://www.theblitz.org/

Two of the Internet's Oldest Wargaming Collectives

(in reply to AvalonHillfan)
Post #: 8
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/10/2006 4:17:31 AM   
JReb


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
Status: offline 		Merchants need to be alone in the sea zone with no other merchants or privateers. This reduces their income dramatically. Sometimes you just have to move them around a little to max their income. Look at the trade map and see where the most trade occurs in sea zones and place them there.

Merchant income is listed in the Ecomomy Advisor screen as part of your total income. Also, just above the info bar are other menus for reports. In the economic report you will see where all the merchant income comes and goes.

_____________________________

My shrink says I have anger management and conflict resolution issues....and I'LL FIGHT ANYBODY THAT DISAGREES!

(in reply to 1NWCG)
Post #: 9
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/10/2006 8:10:16 AM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		The point I was making is that you don't have to micromanage your sliders to do well.  I rarely do and I rarely have economy issues.   The only thing you need to be careful of is getting too large of an army.  But once you get the hang of the detailed battles, you'll find you rarely need a very large army.

Good catch on the courts, those are more important now because of the improved waste mitigation.  It didn't use to be that way so I forgot to mention it.

JReb, you do also bring up a point on changing sliders up to the point on where the number of, in your example, iron is produced. That's a good habit to get into but again, you only need to do it infrequently if at all. Each turn is truly micromanaging it!

Oh, and I meant to respond about the font size. I have good eyesight so I can't really comment but have you considered decreasing the resolution of your screen. Maybe try 640x480?

< Message edited by Joram -- 9/10/2006 8:16:06 AM >

(in reply to JReb)
Post #: 10
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/11/2006 3:56:30 AM   
1NWCG


Posts: 238
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JReb

Merchants need to be alone in the sea zone with no other merchants or privateers. This reduces their income dramatically. Sometimes you just have to move them around a little to max their income. Look at the trade map and see where the most trade occurs in sea zones and place them there.

Merchant income is listed in the Ecomomy Advisor screen as part of your total income. Also, just above the info bar are other menus for reports. In the economic report you will see where all the merchant income comes and goes.


Thanks, I'll look ino it.


_____________________________

Wargame Clubs - http://www.wargame.ch

The Blitz - http://www.theblitz.org/

Two of the Internet's Oldest Wargaming Collectives

(in reply to JReb)
Post #: 11
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/11/2006 8:23:49 AM   
TexHorns

 

Posts: 243
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		IF you right click on the sliders after you have adjusted them all they will lock in place and you do not need to check them every turn. I set them at max production of the primary resource, plus farming and labor to maximize the output, then I lock them. I only return after conquering provinces to set them up.

I use diplomats to 1) coup nuetral minors 2) cause insurrections in other countries protectorates to prevent them from using protectorate armies 3) i create a diplomate early in the game and use it to expel any dimplomats that enter my country.

In my play of this game I find protectorates are key. The armies are free and there is no waste. Poland, Saxony and Bavaria are especially good.

I use the trade advisor to make my trades for me and don't think twice about it. After the new patch I did actually look at the trades to see if they were good or needed. I thought the trade advisor looked as if it was improved. I was short on money and was selling overstock to get money.

(in reply to 1NWCG)
Post #: 12
RE: I really want to like this game! But... - 9/13/2006 4:36:16 PM   
JReb


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TexHorns

IF you right click on the sliders after you have adjusted them all they will lock in place and you do not need to check them every turn.



Thanks, I did not know that!

Another reason I like this game, no matter how long you play there is always something new to learn.

_____________________________

My shrink says I have anger management and conflict resolution issues....and I'LL FIGHT ANYBODY THAT DISAGREES!

(in reply to TexHorns)
Post #: 13
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